They had names they could use for the grave, that would be "grave" and "tomb". Why give it a proper name? And why not use Hades in the gospel accounts of the resurrection?
re: Lazarus, the parable of the rich man and the beggar
- Thread starter C1oudwatch3r
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Good question. I hope my answer is Biblical enough for you. If we refer to how a soul is built, then we can see what happens when it is dismantled.
"God formed man of the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life, and man became a living soul."
"So the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to the God Who gave it.'
Here, we see that a soul exists as a combination of the body and spirit (life giving principle that animates non-living things):
Body + Spirit = Living Soul
The opposite takes place at death:
Body - Spirit = Dead Soul
A lightbulb that has electric current passed through it emits light.
If the electric current is removed, does the light continue to exist in some subterranean chamber, in "Abraham's Bosom" , or some other fanciful place? No, it CEASES TO BE. In the same way, at the death of any creature, be it a righteous, wicked, or even an animal, the Spirit of God returns to Him, their bodies return to the earth, and that which became a living soul becomes a dead soul, which ceases to be. The Bible says of the wicked, "They shall be as though they had not been"; it does not say that they shall continue to be, or exist, in torments for all eternity.
The Bible does say that there will be some who will be in the midst of fire for all eternity:
Isaiah 33:14-16 "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure."
You see, Major, it is the RIGHTEOUS who will be in the midst of consuming fire for all eternity, but will not burn up, because "our God is a consuming fire". The WICKED cannot stand in the sight of such a holy, consuming fire, and are BURNED UP, not BURNED FOREVER!
So now you are telling me that the RIGHTEOUS, the SAVED are going to be in the fire and the wicked lost will be burned up and consumed.
Phoneman. I fear that we are getting very close to having this thread closed. What you have just said is EXACTLY opposite of all Bible Scripture.
So my choice is accept your theology or stand with the COMPLETE Bible. Not much of a choice is it????
However, I will tell you that your theology is so flawed that in my years of Bible study and Christian work, I have not seen anyone as confused and wrong as you are. I am not saying that to hurt you or in any way to take respect from you as a person. It is just that you do not seem to have the ability to understand the Scripture outside of your own narrow agenda of what YOU want them to say. Because of that you make the most obscure statements what you demand that they say and frankly ..... you are wrong!
You used Isaiah 33:14-16 to make your point, but your exegesis is completely wrong...again. Isaiah said that the person who is God is the devouring fire. He is so awesome in His judgment that only the righteous will be spared and that is confirmed by Jesus in Matthew 24:22.
LOOK at Is. 33:14.........14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless:
It is the wicked lost not the righteous!! You have completely misunderstood the words of Isiah!
The Targum on this verse is worthy of notice: "The sinners in Zion are broken down; fear hath seized the ungodly, who are suffering for their ways. They say, Who among us shall dwell in Zion, where the splendor of the Divine Majesty is like a consuming fire? Who of us shall dwell in Jerusalem, where the ungodly are judged and delivered into hell for an eternal burning?"
Please re-read comment #135 for better explanation for you.
And I am saying to you once again........You are wrong and the Bible is correct. It is just that simple.
I'll thank you to ease up on the constant indictments and I'll also thank you to consider the KJV rendering of Isaiah 33:14-16. God is a consuming fire, is He not? God also does not change, as well, right? Then if "Our God is a consuming fire" presently, then He will continue to be such for all eternity, and if you and I plan to be with Him, we will dwell in the midst of that holy, heavenly fire. Isaiah first poses the question and then answers it in the 2 following verses.
Brother, if I invited you to join me at a football stadium by saying, "Hey, I know how to reserve box seats for us unto Superbowl Sunday to be reclined in", wouldn't it be immediately evident to you that we would not be planting our butts in those seats until gameday? So, WHY IN THE WORLD do you insist that when Peter says "The Lord knoweth how to...reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" he actually means that the unjust are already there being punished BEFORE the day of Judgement? Divorce yourself from these unBiblical, preconceived notions and think!
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Only problem is that those box seats are in the place they are located at! God doesn't refabricate the dead just so He can annihilate them!?! And if God has these spirits with Him at the moment, He is allowing evil spirits to exist with Him! C'mon, you are smarter than this.
The place is not the issue, it's the timing that is the issue. The analogy therefore perfectly exemplifies the fact that the wicked are not in punishment now, but are reserved for torment unto the day of Judgment to be punished. They have to be resurrected to a Second Life in order to stand trial, be found guilty, sentenced, and then suffer the Second Death.
No earthly judge would be considered just if he sentenced a man without a trial to 20 years at hard labor and then only afterward called for his case to be tried, and yet "shall mortal man be more just than God?"
Would a just God burn Cain who killed one 5,000 years longer than Hitler who killed millions?
We, the redeemed, are to judge the wicked, both angels and men, that by our testimony the false accusations of Satan and his followers of how unfair, unjust, and unreasonable God and His law are claimed by them to be will be silenced once and for all, that God's character may be fully vindicated before the universe, for "out of the mouths of babes and sucklings (the redeemed) hast Thou ordained strength, because of Thine enemies that Thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger."
Brother Moose, the spirit that God breathes into His creatures to animate them returns to God the same way it came from God: undefiled, untainted. It is not personal to any creature, for it is merely the "life giving principle" that animates an otherwise non-living assemblage of elements from the periodic table - the body of a creature, whether he be righteous, wicked, or from the animal kingdom.
The problem is that Christians think the "spirit" is an apparition like in the movie Ghost where Sam dies and leaves his body and continues to be conscious and possess a memory, knowledge, wisdom, emotions, and all the things that made Sam who he was - Sam. It is not so. Christians would do well to unplug from Hollywood and get their religion from the Bible which says "the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward for the memory of them is forgotten (being dead, they do not possess a memory)...there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, wither thou goest." For this reason, the Second Resurrection of the wicked is necessary - to bring them to a Second Life, that they may be sentenced to the Second Death.
So what do you make of Isaiah 66:24 ?
24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
"does not die" and "fire is not quenched" sounds a bit eternal to me.
So, to get this straight, Jesus lied about the afterlife just to make an analogy for whatever His purpose was, as you said in post #41, "declared that the tables would be turned on them if they persisted in their rebellion. Over and over, He warned that God's favor would be taken from the Jewish nation, saying that the Gentiles would "come from the East, West, North, and South to sit down in the kingdom", while saying to the Jews that "you yourselves shall be cast out" and that the kingdom would be taken from them and "given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.""
If He lied about the afterlife just to prove a point, then this religion is dead. So you see, I can't take what you are selling seriously, for I trust in Jesus.
Time is not the issue either. We are on God's timetable when we die and He is outside of time; hence I believe the "time" you place an emphasis on is a moot question. We will not be parameterized by the time element in this earthly world when we leave this world. Perhaps this is why the thief on the cross was told he would be in Paradise that same day.
NOPE. God said exactly what He wanted to say and does not need YOUR slant on what YOU WANTED HIM TO SAY!
"The place is not the issue, it's the timing that is the issue?????"
Are you kidding all of us? LOCATION IS THE CONTEXT! We have been talking about Hell, Luke 16 being real or make believe and now you are telling us that it is all about TIMING instead of location???
TIMING........OK, here is the time line for you.........We die!
The bodies of all people go into the ground from whence they came.
The SPIRITS of the saved go to be with God.
The SPIRITS of the wicked lost go to Hades/Sheol where they are "reserved" unto the judgment day.
The bodies of the saved will be resurrected unto life at the 1st Resurrection and glorified and we will be with the Lord for Eternity!!!
The bodies of the wicked lost are "RESERVED" in Hades/Sheol until after the 1000 years rule of Christ.
The bodies of the wicked lost are then resurrected unto DEATH at the 2nd resurrection.
They are lost and judged by Christ and cast into the Lake of Fire where they will be tormented day and night eternally. NO 2nd chances. No Purgatory!
THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT TEACH ANNIALIHATION OF THE BODY/SPIRIT!!!. NO NOT ONE!!!!
Phoneman....We all know what you are doing. You are making up stuff to fit what YOU want it to be like instead of understanding WHAT IT IS going to be like. You are making the classic mistake of many others. The Bible is clear and understandable and it says exactly what God wants us to know. YOU however are more concerned with trying to make us understand WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE.
We (Me) will never come to your side of this debate my brother. Never.
Now, let me understand this. YOU said.......
"the RIGHTEOUS, the SAVED are going to be in the fire and the wicked lost will be burned up and consumed."
There are ZERO- NONE- NADA Scriptures that support what you just stated and now because I called you out I am the one making constant indictment?????
Are you reading what you say and thinking about it before hitting the "post" key.
I am afraid this has become too tedious and circular for me Phoneman. I really do have more things to do than debate this with you. If YOU want to believe your opinions instead of Gods Word, that is your choice. I am going to withdraw from this and leave it with others because there is simply nothing else left to be said.
Have a blessed day.
Phoneman may be thinking of 1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
It is the work which will be tried by fire, not the soul. It would be good for all of us to take heed of the verses before this passage:
1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Keep what Christ said as your foundation.
If time is not the issue, then why in heaven's name did Peter make no less than three references to it - reserve, unto, to be in the same verse? I would say b/c God wants us to know that He's reserving the punishment of the wicked to a future period in time which He calls the Day of Judgment.
Jesus and the thief did not go to Paradise that day, for Paradise is UP, but Jesus went DOWN to Hades and was not left there.
Jesus simply gave the thief a promise that day of what would eventually be.
"Verily verily I say unto you today- You will be with me in Paradise."
At death, the Body returns to the earth as it was, the Spirit of Life returns to God Who gave it, and (since the Soul did not come into existence until God combined the Spirit of Life with the Body) when the Spirit of Life and Body are separated, the Soul ceases to exist. "We" do not leave this world at death - it is only the Spirit of Life which leaves this world and returns to God exactly as It was when It was first breathed into the Body.
What slant? I've used the exact same equation as Peter, just plugged in different variables. If you see a slant, try adjusting your "EYE Q", my dear brother.