A question that needs answered by you is, where did the thief on the cross next to Jesus go after he was buried? Jesus said "today you will be with me in Paradise". Where oh where could this be? Jesus' body was not resurrected until the third day. So how could they be some place without their bodies? They went to Paradise, their bodies didn't go there, so was Jesus fibbing?
re: Lazarus, the parable of the rich man and the beggar
- Thread starter C1oudwatch3r
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IF the wicked are to be cast into the lake of fire BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ, how then do you explain Revelation 20:11-15?
Revelation 20:11-15.... (ESV)
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire".
The Second Coming of Christ is found in Rev. 19:11-21........
Revelation 19:11-21English Standard Version (ESV)
The Rider on a White Horse
11 "Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh."
Then Revelation 20:1-5 tells us that there is 1000 years between the Second Coming of Christ and the Great White Throne judgment of the wicked lost who are in hell. When judged guilty, THEN they are cast into the Lake of Fire".
Revelation 20:1-5 (ESV)
The Thousand Years
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit[a] and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. "
Once again I am going to have to accept the Words of God as found in the Bible as opposed to your opinion.
I NEVER said that Phoneman! The Scriptures are very clear and I posted them for you......."THE DEAD IN CHRIST" is referenced by Paul in 1 Tess. 4 which is the Rapture/First Resurrection which is the resurrection of life. THe second resurrection is AFTER the 1000 years in Rev. 20 and it is a resurrection unto just for the wicked lost.
Are you sure I am the one who is confused????
BINGO! I have been trying to get Phoneman to understand that simple teaching with no results. Thanks for your comment.
SPIRIT!!! The Spirits are in torments, NOT BODIES!
Acts 2:31 quotes David from Psalm 16:10 saying ........
“He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His SOUL was not left in HELL, neither His flesh did see corruption.”
I Peter 3:18 & 19 tell us ........
“...being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by His Spirit: By which also He went and preached unto the SPIRITS IN PRISON...”.
You are really making this very difficult on yourself Phoneman and it stems with your belief that "anialihation" destroys the body and soul of man which is NO WHERE to be found in the Scriptures.
I never said that the wicked are cast bodily into hellfire before the Second Coming. But those who insist that Luke 16 is a real, literal passage do just that - argue that before the Second Coming, dead people are recipients of bodies complete with bosoms, fingers, tongues, eyes, etc., in which they are either cast into hellfire or sit across the great gulf watching and talking to the suffering, things which the writer of Ecclesiastes and Job say is IMPOSSIBLE.
Ok, then what is your proof text that the wicked are to receive immortality?
Revelation 19:20
"And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Revelation 20:10
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Revelation 20:14-15
"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
You are refusing to accept that the body goes tot he grave and the spirit goes to torments.
If you are unwilling to grasp that, there is nothing else I can say to you.
OTE="Major, post: 374441, member: 4448"]BINGO! I have been trying to get Phoneman to understand that simple teaching with no results. Thanks for your comment.[/QUOTE]
Paradise is UP, not DOWN, as these texts show:
"The tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." Revelation 2:7
"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life." Revelation 22:1,2
So, Paradise is where the Throne of God is, where the River of Life is, and where the Tree of Life is, none of which is down, but up.
Neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that day.
1) Two days after His death, Jesus STILL "had not yet ascended to My Father" in the Paradise of God: Jesus was headed to His Father and didn't want to be detained by His followers.
2) The thief, who didn't even expect Jesus to remember him and be with Him until Jesus would "come into Your kingdom" at the Second Coming, had not gone anywhere that Friday because he had not yet died, and request was made to have him "taken away" after his legs were broken.
So, what about "Verily, verily, I say unto you today, you will be with Me in Paradise"?
The comma is causing all the problems. The original Greek, utilizing no punctuation, read "Verily verily I say unto you today you will be with Me in Paradise", but placing a comma either before or after the word "today" can make the text say one thing or something else completely different. The text can read, "I say unto you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise" -OR- just as easily read like this: "I say unto you today, You will be with Me in paradise."
In other words, the text could just as easily mean that Jesus was declaring that day, a day where He looked like anything but the Savior of the world, that eventually the thief would be with Him in Paradise.
In the Septuagint, the Greek word for "today" - Samayron - modifies the verb that follows it only around 50 times, but modifies the verb that precedes it 170+ times, which means the majority use of the word alone supports this idea that the subject "today" is modifying the verb "say" rather than what most Christians believe: that it is modifying the verb predicate "will be".
Paradise is UP, not DOWN, as these texts show:
"The tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." Revelation 2:7
"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life." Revelation 22:1,2
So, Paradise is where the Throne of God is, where the River of Life is, and where the Tree of Life is, none of which is down, but up.
Neither Jesus nor the thief went to Paradise that day.
1) Two days after His death, Jesus STILL "had not yet ascended to My Father" in the Paradise of God: Jesus was headed to His Father and didn't want to be detained by His followers.
2) The thief, who didn't even expect Jesus to remember him and be with Him until Jesus would "come into Your kingdom" at the Second Coming, had not gone anywhere that Friday because he had not yet died, and request was made to have him "taken away" after his legs were broken.
So, what about "Verily, verily, I say unto you today, you will be with Me in Paradise"?
The comma is causing all the problems. The original Greek, utilizing no punctuation, read "Verily verily I say unto you today you will be with Me in Paradise", but placing a comma either before or after the word "today" can make the text say one thing or something else completely different. The text can read, "I say unto you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise" -OR- just as easily read like this: "I say unto you today, You will be with Me in paradise."
In other words, the text could just as easily mean that Jesus was declaring that day, a day where He looked like anything but the Savior of the world, that eventually the thief would be with Him in Paradise.
In the Septuagint, the Greek word for "today" - Samayron - modifies the verb that follows it only around 50 times, but modifies the verb that precedes it 170+ times, which means the majority use of the word alone supports this idea that the subject "today" is modifying the verb "say" rather than what most Christians believe: that it is modifying the verb predicate "will be".
"Forever and ever" is from "aionios", which can mean two things: duration that is undefined but not endless or undefined because endless". What proof do you have that we should read it as "undefined because endless"?
What Bible are you reading? The spirit does NOT go to torments at death, it RETURNS to God.
"So the dust shall return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it." Eccl. 12:17. As for the torments of the unjust, "The Lord knoweth how to...reserve the unjust UNTO THE DAY OF JUDGMENT to be punished". Do you get that? They are RESERVED until a future time - they are not in torments right now, get it?
Honestly, you're just making it up as you go, right?
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Phoneman......There is no Eccl 12:17!!
I an encouraging you to put a lid on your sarcasm. You and I have been having a good debate but now that you are seeing how wrong you are you are now making smart "Alice" and personal comments. If you are wanting to end the conversation just do so and stop the cute little remarks that make you look childish. I have a lot of things that I need to be doing and reading your sarcastic comments is not one of them.
I know that you know very well that the WICKED LOST do not go to God!!! That was our context. That is what we were talking about.
That was what YOU were talking about. Luke 16 and the wicked lost in torments and now you are trying to say that I am talking about the wicked lost returning to God?
You are smarter than this and what you are trying to do is so obvious that it hurts. Do you really think that I and others reading your twists and turns do not see what you are doing???
Allow me to tell you one of the facts of human phycology 101. In any debate or conversation, when one realizes that his point of view is wrong, he will then resort to personal attacks so as to draw attention away from the truth he is rejecting. Does that sound familiar to you??????
Now don't take my word, Look it up!!!!
All I can say to you is that I quoted the exact Words found in the Scriptures as you requested. Do you really think that I did not know exactly what your response would be? I knew you would use the comments that you used to make your opinion valid.
Revelation 20:10 is clear and understandable and it is the answer to you question. The wicked lost will be preserved in judgment BUT NOT ANNIHILATED. There will be never ending mental agony and physical suffering. The wicked lost Christ rejecters scoff at the concept of anyone or anything being preserved in fire.
How quickly we forget that which we do not believe to begin with. Was it not Christ Himself that spoke out of a BURNING bush and yet the bush was not consumed? Were not the 3 Hebrew children delivered from the firey furnace and one like the Son of God was there with them and they were not harmed neither did they even smell of smoke?
Mark 9:49English (ESV)
" For everyone will be salted with fire".
It would be a lot easier for you Phoneman to simply say....."I do not believe that Luke 16 is part of the Bible" than it is to work so hard to support a belief that does not exist in any way in the Bible.
Now, you are not going to like what I say to you now, and you will of course reject it, but this teaching of ANNILIAHTION which you are working so very hard to believe actually comes from some cult groups and the biggest of them are the Jehovah Witnesses.
That is because they deny the existence of hell. and heaven. So in order to get around the doctrine of hell which is taught in so many places in Scripture, a new teaching was needed and that was annihilation. I just wanted you to be completely aware of what you are espousing.
Lets consider the Scriptures that you are rejecting. They can not be "explained away" my brother. They are either accepted or rejected.
This is a rather long post which I hate to do but it seems at this point it is needed to show my brother Phoneman his erroneous teaching on "anniliahtion".
Mat 18:8 KJV...........
"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
Here the Bible is very clear that the fire will be everlasting. "pur to aiwnion" (pur to aionion) which translated means "the eternal fire." The punishment will be eternal.
Mat 25:41 KJV...........
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This verse is teaching the same thing which Matthew 18:8 is teaching with the same Greek words, an eternal fire.
Mat 25:46 KJV.........
" And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
This verse teaches the same truth except there is a different word used instead of fire and it is the word ""kolasis" which means a judicial penalty, punishment, or chastisement. It used in 1 John 4:18 where it is translated "torment." If a person is annihilated or ceases to exist, then how could they experience an eternal punishment.
2 Th 1:9 KJV .......
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power".
This almost seems like an oxymoron for how can one be destroyed eternally? However, this is a word which is defined by the context in which it is used. The term is used in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." The term for destruction is "oleqron" (olethron) which means a "destruction, ruin, or death." So there is no conflict in using this word because in 1 Thess. 5:3, the destruction is sudden but in 2 Thess 1:9 the destruction lasts eternally. The first, destruction is on earth but the second destruction is in Hell.
Mark 3:29 (KJV) ........
"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"
The words here may also be translated "eternal judgment." This shows that the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit carries with it the penalty of eternality under judgment.
Jude 1:7 (KJV) ............
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Here we see a great example of what the fires of hell are going to be like. All those who are not found in Christ will suffer eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrha showed us that God’s judgment will be swift but the penalty He prescribes will be eternal which was prefigured by the fires which destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha.
Mat 8:29 9KJV)...........
"And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"
This is an interesting verse. The demons knew who Christ was and are definitely cognizant of the fact they will face torment after they are thrown into hell on the last day. Notice the phrase "before the time" because they know the time is coming when they shall be cast into hell eternally.
Rev 14:11 9KJV)............
" And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Now here is a passage which states explicitly that their torment will be suffered forever. The word torment is "basanismos" (basanismos) which means torture or torment and is peculiar to the Book of Revelation. Now if a person is annihilated and ceases to exist, then how would that person suffer torment for eternity? The answer is simple, it cannot. If something does not exist or ceases to exist then they simply cannot experience anything good or bad.
Mark 9:43-48 (KJV) ...........
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {44} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. {45} And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {46} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. {47} And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: {48} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Here are some of the most ominous verses in Scripture which teach that anyone unsaved will be cast into hell’s fire and that fire will never be quenched. The word is "sbennumi" (sbennumi) which means "to extinguish, suppress or subdue." This fire will never be subdued or lessened.
Notice also the verses speak of a worm. Jesus is speaking of the worm in context of the Gehenna garbage dump in which human bodies were sometimes thrown into. The term "worm " may also be translated maggots and the Gehenna fires gave the maggots an unending source of food. So the sinner in hell also gives the fire an unending source of fuel since it will take all eternity to pay for their sins and this is why the fire can never go out. The worm could have two possible definitions or maybe more but I would like to offer two. Keep in mind that whatever this worm is, it will never die which means it is eternal and not annihilated.
1) Everyone who is cast into hell will have all the lusts and desires they had on earth, but will never be able to have them fulfilled. For example, if a person consistently lusts after sex, they may have the strongest desire for sex in hell but that craving will never be satisfied.
2) They will have full recall of all the times they heard the gospel and mocked and rejected it. This worm might be the recollections of those mockings and rejections. The lusts and recollections will eat away at a person as a lion eats its prey. Remember how fully cognizant the rich man was in hell, his senses and his recall were not diminished in the least.
I have given you sufficient amount of Scripture which completely refutes the idea that there will be annihilation after judgment. The truth of Scripture reveals that after the Great White Throne judgment the unbeliever will be required by penalty of God’s law to pay for their own sins in an eternity in hell and that hell will be a real place of torment away from the presence of the Lord. If you are relying on no eternal punishment because your leaders have told you this, then they have lied to you. It is just that simple.
You can comment, debate, make sarcastic comments all you want, but I say once again to you that there is no such thing in the holy Scriptures as annihilation of the body, soul and spirit.
I don't think comma placement can be argued here.....but I'm sure this also means something other than what it says.
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Also we have 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
This directly ties to the Acts verses. Hmmm, a prison.......for spirits? Eh, must be another false allegoric parabolic reference.(Sarcasm)
Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Also we have 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
This directly ties to the Acts verses. Hmmm, a prison.......for spirits? Eh, must be another false allegoric parabolic reference.(Sarcasm)
I agree with you and it is a valid Biblical point!
And again Yes to the expected "false allegorical reference"!
Brother, I'm going to say it again: "The Lord knoweth how...to RESERVE the unjust UNTO the day of judgment TO BE punished." Do you get that? A reservation is not for the present, it is for the future! If they are reserved for future punishment, they are not being punished right now. They are dead in the grave unconsciously awaiting their resurrection which will seem to come to them the instant after they have closed their eyes in death. Once brought forth to their Second Life, they will be judged, sentenced, executed in the Lake of Fire, and then suffer the Second Death in which God's spirit once again returns to Him, their bodies will burn up into ashes, and they will cease to be forevermore.
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Where does God keep these souls until resurrection? You seem to be saying He puts them back in the "soul bucket" and then will get them back out again for the resurrection. So He is re-creating these souls, again? Why can't Hades be that "place" He reserves them until judgment? The more you explain, the further you seem to get from the Bible.
According to the next verse, the context of the "spirits in prison" refers to those who lived in the "prison house of sin" before the flood to which Jesus plead for their repentance through the preaching of Noah, not some subterranean fiery torture chamber when He died on the cross. Hades refers to the "grave" or "the place of the dead", which is in the ground where they await the resurrection. Hades is NEVER translated as the "fiery, burning, blazing" hell that is "Gehenna". BTW, this is proof that the "soul' does not fly off to heaven at death, for Jesus' soul was not up, it was down.