re: Lazarus, the parable of the rich man and the beggar

Phoneman777 said:
Brother, here's a test to see if we have accepted the Bible:
  • I believe that "the dead know not anything", but you claim the dead possess knowledge while in death based on Luke 16.
  • I believe "the memory of them is forgotten" but you say they retain their memories based on Luke 16.
  • I believe that "their love, envy, and hatred is perished" but you claim they are capable of emotions and feelings based on Luke 16.
  • I believe it is not until "the last trump...this corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality" but you claim the dead receive their bodies before the resurrection based on Luke 16.
  • I believe that "the dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" but you claim that the dead can sit in "Abraham's bosom" fully conscious in death and no doubt have the ability to lift up their voice in praise that they have not shared in the same fate based on Luke 16.
  • I believe that in the flames "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" but you claim that the dead can use some kind of Jedi mind trick to block out the immense pain in order to start a thoughtful conversation with others based on Luke 16. Something like this: "Hey, Ahab, hot enough for ya?" "Shut up, Saul, before I come over there and smite thee upside yo head with this huge chunk o' brimstone."
If you've not figured it out by now, your conclusion that Luke 16 is a literal account puts that passage and you in contradiction with the teachings of the rest of Scripture. Laying aside preconceived notions will allow anyone to accept that due to the abundance of symbolism, it can only be a parable which requires interpretation.
Click to expand...
phoneman~
You are making a lot of claims but your claims are not including scriptures to show where you are getting these ideas so we can read them in context....
"the dead know not anything"
"the memory of them is forgotten"
"their love, envy, and hatred is perished"
etc.
Please list where you are finding these things because my KJV does not phrase those passages the same way as your Bible translation apparently.
 
C1oudwatch3r said:
phoneman~

My Strong's Exhaustive Concordance lists "aionios" as DEFINITELY meaning eternal.

Neither of us are Greek scholars. There are many exceptions, proofs, and meanings of the same word; depending on the noun, adjective, verb, and context of the passage.

I did not get an answer from you regarding which Bible translation you view as the best.
Click to expand...
According to my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Vine's Hebrew/Greek Lexicon that I'm staring at now:
["Aionios" describes duration, either undefined but not endless (not eternal); or undefined because endless (eternal).] It is a well known fact that Greek scholars define this word as such and it is also well known that it is used in the Bible in connection with events that have already ended. Scholars say that when applied to the things of God, it generally means "everlasting" while when it is applied to the affairs of men it generally means "all the days of life".

Sorry, must've missed the question about Bible translations. I think any Bible based on the Textus Receptus of the Protestant Reformation is superior to that which has been issuing forth from the Critical Text for the last 100 years.
 
C1oudwatch3r said:
phoneman~
You are making a lot of claims but your claims are not including scriptures to show where you are getting these ideas so we can read them in context....
"the dead know not anything"
"the memory of them is forgotten"
"their love, envy, and hatred is perished"
etc.
Please list where you are finding these things because my KJV does not phrase those passages the same way as your Bible translation apparently.
Click to expand...
All these are from the KJV:

Ecclesiastes 9. (Verse 4 establishes that the context is speaking of literal, flat-line death and not spiritual death for dogs and lions obviously cannot experience spiritual death)
9:4-10 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun...Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Psalms 115:117 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Psalms 88:11,12 "Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? [or] thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
Job 14:21 "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them."

These and other verses prove that the elements of Luke 16 which speak of the dead knowing things, remembering things, devising things, and feeling things are not in the realm of possibility and therefore must be symbolic and in need of interpretation.
 
Last edited:
Phoneman777 said:
All these are from the KJV:

Ecclesiastes 9. (Verse 4 establishes that the context is speaking of literal, flat-line death and not spiritual death for dogs and lions obviously cannot experience spiritual death)
9:4-10 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun...Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Psalms 115:117 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Psalms 88:11,12 "Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? [or] thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
Job 14:21 "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them."

These and other verses prove that the elements of Luke 16 which speak of the dead knowing things, remembering things, devising things, and feeling things are not in the realm of possibility and therefore must be symbolic and in need of interpretation.
Click to expand...

Okay, thank you for showing me where this is found.

So, what you are claiming (by using Ecclesiastes 9:4-10) is after we ALL die (both believers and unbelievers), we are annihilated (we must be because this text is speaking of both) and then resurrected spiritually (the unbelievers to judgment and annihilation but the believers to judgment and eternal life)?

Ecclesiastes 9:4-10 speaks to ME about how the dead no longer have a part in THIS world and THIS life. When it says "for the memory of them is forgotten", I don't believe it means that the personal memory of the DEAD is forgotten, but rather it means that WE forget about them and they are unable to receive any more reward or portion in THIS life. The dead "know not any thing" about THIS life. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest," exhorts the reader to participate in THIS life because the dead cannot participate in THIS life any longer.

The Psalms references are speaking of how the dead can no longer praise, declare His lovingkindness or see the honour of his sons...in THIS earthly life...not necessarily in the afterlife. We understand that the dead cannot affect this world any longer; but their eternal souls are doing SOMETHING in the afterlife.

These passages ARE NOT describing the afterlife but they are pointing out to the reader how the dead can no longer affect/participate in THIS life.
 
Phoneman777 said:
According to my Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Vine's Hebrew/Greek Lexicon that I'm staring at now:
["Aionios" describes duration, either undefined but not endless (not eternal); or undefined because endless (eternal).] It is a well known fact that Greek scholars define this word as such and it is also well known that it is used in the Bible in connection with events that have already ended. Scholars say that when applied to the things of God, it generally means "everlasting" while when it is applied to the affairs of men it generally means "all the days of life".

Sorry, must've missed the question about Bible translations. I think any Bible based on the Textus Receptus of the Protestant Reformation is superior to that which has been issuing forth from the Critical Text for the last 100 years.
Click to expand...

Thank you for answering my question about which Bible you prefer. At least we are on the same page about THAT! :)

When you list the "aionios" definition from your Strong's, are you listing its entirety? Because unless Strong's has CHANGED their definition of "aionios", mine does list the translation of "eternal" and "perpetuity".
 
Phoneman777 said:
All these are from the KJV:

Ecclesiastes 9. (Verse 4 establishes that the context is speaking of literal, flat-line death and not spiritual death for dogs and lions obviously cannot experience spiritual death)
9:4-10 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun...Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Psalms 115:117 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Psalms 88:11,12 "Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? [or] thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
Job 14:21 "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them."

These and other verses prove that the elements of Luke 16 which speak of the dead knowing things, remembering things, devising things, and feeling things are not in the realm of possibility and therefore must be symbolic and in need of interpretation.
Click to expand...
These verses as I understand them, are from the perspective of those in this life, the person who transcribed these inspired words. I suppose this type of scripture reading is what lead to the Sadducees belief that there was no resurrection. We have Jesus to thank for setting that debate to rest.

Interestingly, you missed the next verse of Job 14:
21 His sons come to honor, and he does not know it;
They are brought low, and he does not perceive it.
22 But his flesh will be in pain over it, (I'm not sure what this means exactly, maybe his new flesh?)
And his soul will mourn over it.” (To me, it is obvious that the soul lives on and can mourn over it...it from the prior verse, the honor and the being brought low of the sons. So our souls will mourn for the pain of our family left here in this life.)
What Jesus was talking about in Luke 16 was the souls after death, not their bodies from this existence. You talked about not having bodies after death, and that is true, we don't have bodies like we have here. The souls of the dead await their new bodies until Jesus comes again.
 
Last edited:
Jesus said to the thief on the cross, in Luke 23
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Where is Paradise? Isn't he just dead til Jesus returns? No, without a doubt that thief went to Paradise that same day, and Paradise is not the grave. It is probably where Abraham was and is, the souls of the righteous, those who believe in God and trust on Him. Now this doesn't clear up annihilationism, but does clear up that the soul goes somewhere after death and fits with the truthfulness of Jesus' parable (or literal account) of Lazarus and the rich man.
 
Phoneman777 said:
Brother, here's a test to see if we have accepted the Bible:
  • I believe that "the dead know not anything", but you claim the dead possess knowledge while in death based on Luke 16.
  • I believe "the memory of them is forgotten" but you say they retain their memories based on Luke 16.
  • I believe that "their love, envy, and hatred is perished" but you claim they are capable of emotions and feelings based on Luke 16.
  • I believe it is not until "the last trump...this corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality" but you claim the dead receive their bodies before the resurrection based on Luke 16.
  • I believe that "the dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" but you claim that the dead can sit in "Abraham's bosom" fully conscious in death and no doubt have the ability to lift up their voice in praise that they have not shared in the same fate based on Luke 16.
  • I believe that in the flames "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" but you claim that the dead can use some kind of Jedi mind trick to block out the immense pain in order to start a thoughtful conversation with others based on Luke 16. Something like this: "Hey, Ahab, hot enough for ya?" "Shut up, Saul, before I come over there and smite thee upside yo head with this huge chunk o' brimstone."
If you've not figured it out by now, your conclusion that Luke 16 is a literal account puts that passage and you in contradiction with the teachings of the rest of Scripture. Laying aside preconceived notions will allow anyone to accept that due to the abundance of symbolism, it can only be a parable which requires interpretation.
Click to expand...

Actually Phoneman, your lift is NOT a test to see if we have accepted the Bible.
It is a test that confirms that YOU my friend have NOT accepted the Bible!

1) YOU said........"I believe that "the dead know not anything"".

The Bible says......Luke 16:25-26
But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

1 Corth. 13:12.......
"For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face, now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known".

2). YOU said........"I believe "the memory of them is forgotten".

Luke tells us ofthe unjust judge.
Luke18:7.....
And shall not God avenge His own, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them".

3). You said......."I believe that "their love, envy, and hatred is perished".

In the concluding book of the New Testament, John saw a vision of those precious souls who had been martyred for the cause of the slain Lamb. They cried:

Revelation 6:10 (NKJV)
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

4) YOU said........"I believe it is not until "the last trump...this corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality"

Agreed!

5). YOU said........."I believe that "the dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence".

Revelation 5......
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.”

Revelation 5:8......
8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

6. YOU said......"I believe that in the flames "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" but you claim that the dead can use some kind of Jedi mind trick to block out the immense pain in order to start a thoughtful conversation

I believe as well that......"there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth". The very same one who gave us Luke 16 also gave us.............

Mathhew 13:42
"and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:50
"and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:46 .......
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".

Phoneman, please take Notice of what the Bible says and that the duration of the lost in Hell is exactly the same as the duration of the saved in Heaven, "forever and ever".

So you can now see that the problem is not ME acdcepting the Bible but is in fact YOU who do not accept the Bible.

Again, the root of your misunderstanding and the inability to Accept the Word of God is you belief in "ANNIALATION" of the body.

Everything hings on that belief and it is a totally UN-BIBLICAL belief Phoneman. The belief in "annihilation belongs to the school of Domino Theology. When just only thing is refuted, the rest of it falls apart. THAT is why you are working so hard to prove you opinion.

In all respect Phoneman.....it is just not going to happen. Think Phoneman.......If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!

Annihilation my dear frined is NOT Biblical in any way and as long as you stick with it you will always be in conflict with Bible believers. It is jst that simple.
 
Matthew 25:46 .......
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".

Phoneman, please take Notice of what the Bible says and that the duration of the lost in Hell is exactly the same as the duration of the saved in Heaven, "forever and ever".
Click to expand...

Yes, and I see the same "aionios" Greek word is used for both the righteous who go into eternal life AND the wicked who go into everlasting punishment....hmmmm.
 
C1oudwatch3r said:
Okay, thank you for showing me where this is found.

So, what you are claiming (by using Ecclesiastes 9:4-10) is after we ALL die (both believers and unbelievers), we are annihilated (we must be because this text is speaking of both) and then resurrected spiritually (the unbelievers to judgment and annihilation but the believers to judgment and eternal life)?

Ecclesiastes 9:4-10 speaks to ME about how the dead no longer have a part in THIS world and THIS life. When it says "for the memory of them is forgotten", I don't believe it means that the personal memory of the DEAD is forgotten, but rather it means that WE forget about them and they are unable to receive any more reward or portion in THIS life. The dead "know not any thing" about THIS life. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest," exhorts the reader to participate in THIS life because the dead cannot participate in THIS life any longer.

The Psalms references are speaking of how the dead can no longer praise, declare His lovingkindness or see the honour of his sons...in THIS earthly life...not necessarily in the afterlife. We understand that the dead cannot affect this world any longer; but their eternal souls are doing SOMETHING in the afterlife.

These passages ARE NOT describing the afterlife but they are pointing out to the reader how the dead can no longer affect/participate in THIS life.
Click to expand...
The texts don't say "in this life" at all; they simply say the dead know nothing period; their emotions are perished period; their memories are no more period; that there's no work, knowledge, wisdom, planning in the grave period. God said we'd die but the serpent said we wouldn't and I choose to believe God: that death is the opposite of life, not a continuation of it. That's why the coming of Jesus is called the "blessed hope" - not so that we can recieve new bodies for our already conscious souls in some celestial fashion show, but so that we can be brought from the state of death back to life again! Paul says we should comfort one another with the words of the resurrection, not with words of us being alive and floating around waiting to receive immortal bodies to clothe our "immortal souls".
 
C1oudwatch3r said:
Thank you for answering my question about which Bible you prefer. At least we are on the same page about THAT! :)

When you list the "aionios" definition from your Strong's, are you listing its entirety? Because unless Strong's has CHANGED their definition of "aionios", mine does list the translation of "eternal" and "perpetuity".
Click to expand...
From Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red Letter Edition- the most complete, accurate, and up to date New Strong's with Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries...with Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words, 2001 Thomas Nelson Publishing:

Page 10, Greek Lexicon-
166 - Aionios (from 165): "perpetual; eternal; everlasting; the world began; since the world began; forever. Aionios, the adjective, describes duration - either undefined, but not endless, or undefined because endless."

Strong admits what many other honest scholars also know: that the word does not always mean "never ending" in its original use. When applied to God, the word general means "never ending" but when applied to man, it generally means "all the days of life". The rest of us would do well to accept what the scholars, including Strong himself, conclude. :)
 
Big Moose said:
These verses as I understand them, are from the perspective of those in this life, the person who transcribed these inspired words. I suppose this type of scripture reading is what lead to the Sadducees belief that there was no resurrection. We have Jesus to thank for setting that debate to rest.

Interestingly, you missed the next verse of Job 14:
21 His sons come to honor, and he does not know it;
They are brought low, and he does not perceive it.
22 But his flesh will be in pain over it, (I'm not sure what this means exactly, maybe his new flesh?)
And his soul will mourn over it.” (To me, it is obvious that the soul lives on and can mourn over it...it from the prior verse, the honor and the being brought low of the sons. So our souls will mourn for the pain of our family left here in this life.)
What Jesus was talking about in Luke 16 was the souls after death, not their bodies from this existence. You talked about not having bodies after death, and that is true, we don't have bodies like we have here. The souls of the dead await their new bodies until Jesus comes again.
Click to expand...
"Flesh shall have pain and his soul shall mourn over it" is a poetic reference to the inevitability of the grave and subsequent decomposition which not one of us relishes when we come to death's door. How can we be sure Job is not speaking literally? Because this same Job says in death we don't perceive anything, including pain. And Solomon agrees in saying that in death we don't have any knowledge, wisdom, love, envy, hatred, mourning, or anything else. We are dead, which is the cessation of life, not a continuation of it.

Jesus specifically mentioned Abraham, the Rich Man, and Lazarus in possession of body parts which included tongues, eyes, fingers, and bosoms while being in a state of death before the resurrection. Since you agree with me that the dead are not recipients of such until the resurrection takes place, which the passage clearly reveals has not yet happened, Jesus is either contradicting the rest of Scripture or He is speaking in parabolic language which must be interpreted to get His true meaning.
 
Last edited:
C1oudwatch3r said:
Yes, and I see the same "aionios" Greek word is used for both the righteous who go into eternal life AND the wicked who go into everlasting punishment....hmmmm.
Click to expand...
Yes, the punishment is everlasting. But, what is the punishment? Eternal torment? NO, for Jesus would have had to go to that place of eternal torment and remain there in order for you to escape that punishment.
The punishment is..........drum roll please............DEATH! An everlasting, eternal DEATH from which there will be no resurrection.
 
Major said:
Actually Phoneman, your lift is NOT a test to see if we have accepted the Bible.
It is a test that confirms that YOU my friend have NOT accepted the Bible!

1) YOU said........"I believe that "the dead know not anything"".

The Bible says......Luke 16:25-26
But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

1 Corth. 13:12.......
"For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face, now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known".

2). YOU said........"I believe "the memory of them is forgotten".

Luke tells us ofthe unjust judge.
Luke18:7.....
And shall not God avenge His own, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them".

3). You said......."I believe that "their love, envy, and hatred is perished".

In the concluding book of the New Testament, John saw a vision of those precious souls who had been martyred for the cause of the slain Lamb. They cried:

Revelation 6:10 (NKJV)
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

4) YOU said........"I believe it is not until "the last trump...this corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality"

Agreed!

5). YOU said........."I believe that "the dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence".

Revelation 5......
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.”

Revelation 5:8......
8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

6. YOU said......"I believe that in the flames "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" but you claim that the dead can use some kind of Jedi mind trick to block out the immense pain in order to start a thoughtful conversation

I believe as well that......"there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth". The very same one who gave us Luke 16 also gave us.............

Mathhew 13:42
"and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:50
"and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:46 .......
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".

Phoneman, please take Notice of what the Bible says and that the duration of the lost in Hell is exactly the same as the duration of the saved in Heaven, "forever and ever".

So you can now see that the problem is not ME acdcepting the Bible but is in fact YOU who do not accept the Bible.

Again, the root of your misunderstanding and the inability to Accept the Word of God is you belief in "ANNIALATION" of the body.

Everything hings on that belief and it is a totally UN-BIBLICAL belief Phoneman. The belief in "annihilation belongs to the school of Domino Theology. When just only thing is refuted, the rest of it falls apart. THAT is why you are working so hard to prove you opinion.

In all respect Phoneman.....it is just not going to happen. Think Phoneman.......If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!

Annihilation my dear frined is NOT Biblical in any way and as long as you stick with it you will always be in conflict with Bible believers. It is jst that simple.
Click to expand...
Point by point:
  1. You can't assume Luke 16 is literal and then by that attempt to disprove Solomon's claim that "the dead know not anything." Also, Paul will "know even as (he) is known" in the resurrection, not in death, for "the dead know nothing."
  2. How in the world do you derive from the parable of the Unjust Judge, a parable concerning live people, evidence that the dead retain their memories?
  3. Revelation is "sent and SIGNIFIED (means "uses symbolism") by his angel to His servant John." How can the souls of the martyrs be "under the altar" when you say they are supposed to be "in Abraham's bosom"? Bro, I'll make it easy for you: Blood can't cry out, whether it be of the martyrs or of Abel. It is JUSTICE that is crying out, namely God's earnest desire to make right the wrong that has been done.
  4. Agreed
  5. This obviously takes place after the dead in Christ are raised to be with Him in heaven, and certainly not while they are yet in the grave and the prayers of the holy ones certainly don't refer to dead folks in the grave who possess no knowledge or ability to pray.
  6. How, pray tell, can a person completely engulfed in flames that is wailing and gnashing his teeth because of the immense, unspeakable pain he's experiencing suddenly stop and have a nice, lucid, thoughtful conversation about his concern for loved ones and the like? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Try pressing just the tip of your pinky on a hot stove and then try and have a conversation with someone and see how well that goes.

Bro, the Word of God is not a buffet table in which we can pick the verses we like and leave the others behind.

Yes, the wicked shall be tormented "forever and ever", which Strong says means an "undefined, but not endless" period of time, for "there shall be no more death, nor crying, nor sorrow, neither shall there be anymore pain for the former things are passed away."

There is not a single verse that says the wicked put on immortality. To the contrary, Paul says that only those are SEEKING FOR IMMORTALITY now will receive it later. How in the world do you conclude that the wicked who do everything BUT SEEK FOR IMMORTALITY will one day be the recipients of it? It is a gift that is given only to the righteous, while the wicked will "be as though they had not been" along with the devil to whom God said, "Never shalt thou be anymore."
 
Last edited:
Phoneman777 said:
Point by point:
  1. You can't assume Luke 16 is literal and then by that attempt to disprove Solomon's claim that "the dead know not anything." Also, Paul will "know even as (he) is known" in the resurrection, not in death, for "the dead know nothing."
  2. How in the world do you derive from the parable of the Unjust Judge, a parable concerning live people, evidence that the dead retain their memories?
  3. Revelation is "sent and SIGNIFIED (means "uses symbolism") by his angel to His servant John." How can the souls of the martyrs be "under the altar" when you say they are supposed to be "in Abraham's bosom"? Bro, I'll make it easy for you: Blood can't cry out, whether it be of the martyrs or of Abel. It is JUSTICE that is crying out, namely God's earnest desire to make right the wrong that has been done.
  4. Agreed
  5. This obviously takes place after the dead in Christ are raised to be with Him in heaven, and certainly not while they are yet in the grave and the prayers of the holy ones certainly don't refer to dead folks in the grave who possess no knowledge or ability to pray.
  6. How, pray tell, can a person completely engulfed in flames that is wailing and gnashing his teeth because of the immense, unspeakable pain he's experiencing suddenly stop and have a nice, lucid, thoughtful conversation about his concern for loved ones and the like? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Try pressing just the tip of your pinky on a hot stove and then try and have a conversation with someone and see how well that goes.

Bro, the Word of God is not a buffet table in which we can pick the verses we like and leave the others behind.

Yes, the wicked shall be tormented "forever and ever", which Strong says means an "undefined, but not endless" period of time, for "there shall be no more death, nor crying, nor sorrow, neither shall there be anymore pain for the former things are passed away."

There is not a single verse that says the wicked put on immortality. To the contrary, Paul says that only those are SEEKING FOR IMMORTALITY now will receive it later. How in the world do you conclude that the wicked who do everything BUT SEEK FOR IMMORTALITY will one day be the recipients of it? It is a gift that is given only to the righteous, while the wicked will "be as though they had not been" along with the devil to whom God said, "Never shalt thou be anymore."
Click to expand...
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So now are we to think that Hebrew has the same problem for `owlam (everlasting)?

-Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.--Don't fight the air around you, breathe it
 
Phoneman777 said:
From Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red Letter Edition- the most complete, accurate, and up to date New Strong's with Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries...with Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words, 2001 Thomas Nelson Publishing:

Page 10, Greek Lexicon-
166 - Aionios (from 165): "perpetual; eternal; everlasting; the world began; since the world began; forever. Aionios, the adjective, describes duration - either undefined, but not endless, or undefined because endless."

Strong admits what many other honest scholars also know: that the word does not always mean "never ending" in its original use. When applied to God, the word general means "never ending" but when applied to man, it generally means "all the days of life". The rest of us would do well to accept what the scholars, including Strong himself, conclude. :)
Click to expand...
phoneman~
I am wondering why you did not BOLD the "perpetual; eternal; everlasting" portion, or the "forever" portion; or the "undefined because endless"? You are deliberately choosing to see only what fits your view. Granted, at times "aionios" is used the way you are choosing; but NOT ALL THE TIME. We pointed out a verse to you where "aionios" is used specifically as "everlasting punishment" for the wicked alongside "aionios" being used as life eternal for the righteous (Matthew 25:46), but you fail to give that verse weight. Why? It is the SAME GREEK WORD specifically meaning "eternal" and being applied to the hereafter for both wicked and righteous. There are other verses we could list; but you will not accept them anyways.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top