religion
- Thread starter forgiven61
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I use to drive cabs and would often drive the elderly to Church. A pity if the Church isn't looking after it's own to at least give them a lift.
Hmm. My KJV doesn't have "under shepherd" anywhere throughout, but that's ok.
You're right. Rapture isn't in the Greek or Hebrew. It doesn't have to be given that it's an English word derived from Latin. It IS in the Latin Vulgate, called "rapturos," but, again, that's just academic. The concept of "snatching away" is indeed in the original languages of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.
When it comes to division, that's just part and parcel of life, my friend. Jesus Himself said so:
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Ecumenicalism is seen as a peaceful movement, because unity is allegedly a more desirable environment when, in fact, it brings the evil and wickedness of compromise into the mix of believers in the place of dialogue and doctrinal philosophy (the pursuit of truth). Religion is at peace with ecumenicism at its core, because the giants in the faith are thus pushed to the side in an attempt to silence their objections as bastions against heresies.
So, f61, as bad a taste as disagreement puts into the mouths of those who find it unsavory, the words of Paul ring out in my mind whereby we all should be able to get past the elements of discord, and discuss reasonable the more weightier items of doctrine and faith.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
This is great incentive to discuss always these things in love and compassion.
MM
I learned more from reading and studying on my own rather than the milk-toast and wet-noodle lessons of 'milk' once I was on to the meat.
MM
I'd always take people living in my street or on the way or didn't have a car but in all the time only one couple ever offered a car pool to me.
At community meals I'd drop people home do they didn't have to walk in the dark.
I don't know if there's an admin in church organising carpools they don't seem to bother with it. One church assumed I was always going to be able to make it for practically every event and night they put on. It was ok for the pastor and his family they lived right next door to the church. But I lived kilometres away and the church was up a steep hill.
I still haven't found a church near me that's easy to get to, the closest is the mormon church lol. The couple of times I walked to some other nearby churches, people there interogated me where I was from, as if I didn't even belong to the area.
That reminds of a few times we visited a Lutheran and/or Reformed Church, we were immediately accosted with the question, "What is your name?" Immediately followed up with...'but what is your last name?' ...I suppose they were hoping to hear something like Goehring or Van der Kamp...speaking of 'religion'.
then was does the pastor do ? preach to ice cubes ? i realize this will be a disagreement in Ezekiel chapter 3 and 33 we read of the watchman and his duties and if he fails his duties to watch over fails to sound the alarm there blood is on his hands. we compare the watchman to the pastor office .he is watch over his flock and keep them safe. much like what shepherd does. the pastor also feeds the flock so symbolically speaking the pastor is under the great shepherd. which causes him to be a under shepherd
i dont practice that especially if said movement goes against the Bible . i dont do religion i do relationships
Hey crossnote;
Back in 1999 while on vacation in Mendocino, CA, we found and attended a Lutheran church on a Sunday. The people were nice and the service was anointing. We were asked our name and I told them Eusebio and was a distant relative to the theologian scholar, Eusebius of Caesarea. I was joking but they had no idea who he was.
L
L!Generally speaking, the prime fallacy I was addressing is the assumption that the Bible anywhere offers an actual job description assigned to "pastor." It doesn't exist without people assuming that the letters to Timothy and the churches throughout Asia Minor were written to "pastors." I say that in direct contrast to the modern "pastor," which is a purely contrived creature by comparison. Dare we read scripture for what it says and what it DOES NOT say, we begin to see the glaring creativity applied to the modern job of "pastor" that's far more roman catholic in origin than the Bible.
That's not to say that the modern "pastor" is anti-biblical. No. Institutionalism has every right to freely form and build whatever leadership structure in functionality the people in those groups so desire. No problem there. The problem enters in when some folks begin claiming their structure as being biblically mandated.
Just wanted to make sure that was understood.
MM
i dont know what type bad experience you had with Church. but i will assure you i can take you to many churches that function in the Body of Christ . yes i have heard all the debates/arguments on how or what a church should do . i think the biggest problem we have is every one want to be a leader . God designed the office of the pastor were not like warlords . we tend and lead the flock as a watchman . the first Church gathering was at Antioch. i guess we could go back to the days of going house to house. then when the crowd leaves the home owner cleans the mess .
i am bowing out of this it seems in all forums posters would rather reply to things that really dont matter .
Umm, institutionalists always gravitate toward the idea that everyone is a victim of abuses from some other institutional churches who dare point out that institutionalism and its leadership are not creations from within the Bible. This also was never about the people within institutional churches functioning within the body of Christ. f61, we all function within the body of Christ not because of institutional churches, but in spite of them. They can all burn to the ground, and we will continue to live and function within the body of Christ.
I also challenge the idea that the FUNCTION of pastoring is an 'office,' as if it were elevated above the other people around them, especially those to whom they minister. They should forever be putting themselves out of a job by way of duplicating themselves; by raising up their congregations to spiritual giants who can function as believers. I dare anyone show to me where the word of God, in reference to the Church, establishes the concept of perpetual sheepdom under the tutelage of some 'pastor,' in perpetuity!
Granted...most in congregations languish in their laziness when it comes to taking their spiritual growth seriously, thinking that mere attendance earns God's pleasure. Bottom line - this world is too wanting for spiritual giants, and churchianity has yet to step up to the plate and take on that task fully and with gusto with too many 'pastors' building their congregation of followers - paying members and perpetual sheep rather than seeking to end their careers over those people so that they can begin anew, with new converts, to continue the cycle of building them up, and then on, and then on, and... I'm talking about the model, and the way it functions, both historically and in modern times. Vigor and excitement are poor replacements for actual growth and maturity in spiritual stature.
I hope that clarifies what I've been saying, not only here, but also in other threads.
MM
once again i feel you fail to understand every pastor IS NOT elevated above the people. a pastor is a servant. how many mega church pastors do you find mowing the lawn .cleaning the church helping others out where they can. try driving a big truck from 3 am till noon or later. take of go visit folks in the hospital. have church on sunday night leave out early hours of the morning. once again iam sorry you have a sorry taste in your mouth towards pastors . you need come to my are walk with the bi vocational ministers/pastors . .
in my 25 years of ministry i have yet to see the above. no sir i will not agree with you. besides the church runs the Church by vote, the pastor leads if a church allows it self to be ruled by Iron fist then they are not the Body. a God called pastor is not greedy nor a bully .they are a servant .bahh i done broke my vow all the above is called religion the church i pastor my wife and i clean most of the time by the cleaning supplies.
your not giving true pastors the credit they deserve . am i passionate about the pastor office? yes i am i have sat under some fine pastor who lead by example before i took this church , i had storm come threw blew a limb down in my front driveway. i took a picture sent a text to the pastor of the church we attended. next thing i know he is out front with his chain saw , i told him i was going take care of it. he ignored me cut it up.
i could give many examples of pastors who did jobs for people not got one penny. nor would they you have a good night i dont mean to sound or get down on you. just i have always stood by the pastor seen folks get mad at them for nothing . a pastor taking care of the church is honorable . provided they are humble
I agree with you, f61. However, in the minds of most people, the 'pastor' is elevated above others in the body regardless of what you or I think. I was simply pointing out to you that calling the pastorate an "office" is a practice in distinctives, and in the minds of most, that's an elevation above others in the body.
Additionally, like I had said before, a group of people has every right to hire a dude to go around doing all those things you described, and when he experiences burnout from it all, which happens VERY often on account of all that's expected of that poor man, the group then pays for his burnout retreat that people like James Dobson said is well deserved. Personally, I'd never let myself be hired to have such an enormous demand placed upon me individually. One must turn completely up-side down his life's priorities to make it work at the extent you described. My priorities are:
1 - God
2 - Family
3 - job
4 - church.
Flipping that is simply an unacceptable practice in relation to my personal life. For those who do flip it, hey, they get what they agree to step into with both feet mired in the muck of it all.
1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
I'm not saying that all the workaholic 'pastors' do this, but what I've heard described on programs like Dobson's in what some 'pastors' allow themselves to be put through, I've often wondered how many of them ran amuck under the condemnation of that verse.
No problem from me with you standing by the 'pastor.' I stand by them, the elders, the bishops, et al. I stand mostly by the discipled. THEY are the reason leaders within the (C)hurch exist. The leaders within the institutional model do what they do, but the leaders outside the organized system also do extremely valuable and worthy work, contrary to the thinking of the average institutionalist who assumes that the institutional model is the sum total of what Christianity is all about. That far cry is, unfortunately, the harsh reality that stands much larger than any elephant in the room.
MM
You both have good points, one I can feel and the other I hear.
I will confess I can't understand every pastor because I'm going by my own experiences as a pastor which is incorrect. I cannot be a lone pastor relying solely on my experience. This is why it is so important for the "pastor's need to breed with pastors" so they can offer a listening ear, or when a seasoned pastor mentors a young pastor, and when pastors can gather, pray and encourage all pastors.
Years ago I followed the advice of an elder, that it's good to connect with a group of pastors (3 or 5) who have had their "hard knocks" and will all hold me accountable. It's not fair to always unload on my wife. I'll meet with one pastor for a cup of coffee, meet with another in a phone call, do a ministry project with another and so on. We're friends, brothers in Christ and each uplift one another in their noble calling, but we hold each other accountable.
As Major shared after all his years (since the stone age) he is long retired but holds the honorary pastor emeritus. I'm now being voted by our church as an emeritus and will remain retired with our home church. I can still officiate weddings, funerals, christianings, baptisms and evangelism. But my duties are not the overtime duties of a lead or senior pastor each day of the week.
What forgiven shared, I have to agree with him. A pastor is a servant, first, and what he described I can relate to. The job can get dirty. When noone is around to help, the pastor has to roll up his sleeves. When the pastor ministers to someone or a family then later is blamed. Or when the pastor has to sacrifice his pay because the offerings are low. Or when the pastor has to serve overtime because there just isn't enough help. I can relate on and on. But I also have to confess that people who have been with forgiven for years hold him in high esteem because of his office as the church and community pastor. It's the way of the flock and their shepherd.
Musicmaster makes a very good point when a pastor holds a distinctive office, the servant has to constantly watch himself and seek God's guidance. Burnout and workaholic attacks every pastor and it can affect his thinking and decision making. The pastor has to continuously stay watchful of his walk because it can lead to temptation of relief, taking shortcuts and sin. MM's outline are priorities that must remain consistent and I also agree. Whether we like it or not, the pastor is always being watched by his examples and how he leads God's church.
In this topic of religion I feel our brother's hone in more on the everyday life of blessings and challenges of the True church.
i am not a mega church fan .simply for the reason the pastor can not be the pastor. he can only be a preacher men like john Hagee Charles Stanley. the names go on and on. there is no way they know the members those who attend on a personal level you simply can not ministers they have other pastors on staff . baptism funerals marriages. where i live there might be a associate pastor if the congregation is big enough .
its tough times for the TRUE pastor a pastor my brother knows went from in the hundreds to 30 or less. when the first pandemic hit i have my oldest sister and her husband will seldom darken the doors due to the virus . there is a difference between being a church and the Church i even have my low times attendance low .make a visit to one who has not been in church 2 weeks. knowing before i went in what the visit would be. you soon start to see there is a possibility they only have fire insurance not a relationship
its tough times for the TRUE pastor a pastor my brother knows went from in the hundreds to 30 or less. when the first pandemic hit i have my oldest sister and her husband will seldom darken the doors due to the virus . there is a difference between being a church and the Church i even have my low times attendance low .make a visit to one who has not been in church 2 weeks. knowing before i went in what the visit would be. you soon start to see there is a possibility they only have fire insurance not a relationship
I think a group of 12-70 is a manageable herd.
Though Jesus did say when two or three gather in my name, there I am in the midst. So...
How many people regularly post on this forum? I think it's ok.
At my school there's about 350 children to 15 classroom teachers but not including support staff that is the same amount again. So a good ratio might be 1 adult to 12 children/ learners. Then you can buddy up with each other or learn in pairs or threes. six children can make a good team vs another six or all 12 together. Or you can have 3 groups of 4.
I don't know how many sheep are herded together on farms as I am not a farmer. But there is probably an ideal number that one shepherd can reasonably look after. They would know each by name, I have a hard time remembering more than 7 names at a time.
Though Jesus did say when two or three gather in my name, there I am in the midst. So...
How many people regularly post on this forum? I think it's ok.
At my school there's about 350 children to 15 classroom teachers but not including support staff that is the same amount again. So a good ratio might be 1 adult to 12 children/ learners. Then you can buddy up with each other or learn in pairs or threes. six children can make a good team vs another six or all 12 together. Or you can have 3 groups of 4.
I don't know how many sheep are herded together on farms as I am not a farmer. But there is probably an ideal number that one shepherd can reasonably look after. They would know each by name, I have a hard time remembering more than 7 names at a time.
i agree even in the hundreds .get bigger than that you need full time associate pastor help . all though the office of the Deacon is supposed be the pastor right hand should be able to teach