Revelation Proportions Observed

Musicmaster

Musicmaster

Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "church" is in the NT texts, and it appears 74 time.​
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Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many time the noun "saints" is in the NT texts, and it appears 63 times.​
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Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "church" appears in Rev. chapters 6-19, which covers the expanse of the Tribulation period, and "church" appears in those chapters ZERO times.​
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Looking into the NKJV, I polled as to how many times the noun "saints" appears in Rev. chapters 6-19, which covers the expanse of the Tribulation period, and "saints" appears 13 times.​

That's a proportion of ZERO to 13.

What's the big deal about this?

Well, either John, one of the twelve, and/or the Lord suddenly lost any tast for calling the Church the Church in those chapters of Revelation, or the proportions tell us something, considering that the Church is addressed more than "saints" throughout all the NT.

Take that in whatever way you wish, according to personal dogmas, but this is an interesting set of statistics that screams at anyone who seeks to look deeper into the scriptures than just merely reading them like a romance novel.

Now, without anyone arguing about rapture or any other of the many topics not allowed for discussion, what do you see in these statistical indicators?

As for me, I'll await your inputs. Numbers throughout scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, have always given to us indicators of importance. Numbers heave meaning.

What say you?

MM
 
Are the 144,000 called saints? What about the people who come to Christ during the tribulation period? How many times does the word elect show up?
 
Dave F. said:
Are the 144,000 called saints? What about the people who come to Christ during the tribulation period? How many times does the word elect show up?
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The people who come to Christ in the tribulation period, as described in Revelation, in the NKJV and the KJV...the non "saints" appears not once. The 144,000 are not a part of the Church, but are sealed and set aside to evangelize in that period of time. Being in Christ makes on a saint, but in the Tribulation period, they are not addressed as being a part of the Church, and the reason being that the lack of mention even once for the existence of the Church on the earth in that period of time...well, one can assess that as one so chooses.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
The people who come to Christ in the tribulation period, as described in Revelation, in the NKJV and the KJV...the non "saints" appears not once. The 144,000 are not a part of the Church, but are sealed and set aside to evangelize in that period of time. Being in Christ makes on a saint, but in the Tribulation period, they are not addressed as being a part of the Church, and the reason being that the lack of mention even once for the existence of the Church on the earth in that period of time...well, one can assess that as one so chooses.

MM
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I meant to say '"the noun "saints" appears not once' in the first sentence.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
The people who come to Christ in the tribulation period, as described in Revelation, in the NKJV and the KJV...the non "saints" appears not once. The 144,000 are not a part of the Church, but are sealed and set aside to evangelize in that period of time. Being in Christ makes on a saint, but in the Tribulation period, they are not addressed as being a part of the Church, and the reason being that the lack of mention even once for the existence of the Church on the earth in that period of time...well, one can assess that as one so chooses.

MM
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MM........May I say to you, and I think you will agree, most of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the “heavenly hope.” Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the “earthly hope”—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000.

It is true that there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the converted Jews who had not heard the gospel and they will come to Christ and be the tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation.

The Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people as the 144 K will lead Gentiles to Jesus. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will be established at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God, and we will be His people.
 
Dave F. said:
So what is the difference between the saints and the elect?
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Hello Dave F.;

That is a great question. In my understanding of Revelation the saints or the elect are God's people prepared and chosen for Salvation.

In my personal proclamation of Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior and my relationship, I am a saint and believe I am elected by God.

Isaiah 65:9, 22, Matthew 24:31 and John John 10:29 are references.

There is more to this but I just wanted to address your question with what I have read and believe.

God bless you, Dave, and your family.
 
Dave F. said:
So what is the difference between the saints and the elect?
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Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Isaiaj 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.

Matthew 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. ...

The confusion seems to arise when reading English translations where translators chose English equivalents that may not be what is consistent with the original language. Confusing the line of distinction between saints and the elect, that's one of a number of issues I have encountered in our English translations.

Replacement theology followers will say there is no difference to whom the terms apply, but the deeper concept for those who believe God is NOT finished with Israel, the difference is indeed striking as we stand in the realm of time on this earth, in this reality.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
The confusion seems to arise when reading English translations where translators chose English equivalents that may not be what is consistent with the original language. Confusing the line of distinction between saints and the elect, that's one of a number of issues I have encountered in our English translations. Replacement theology followers will say there is no difference to whom the terms apply, but the deeper concept for those who believe God is NOT finished with Israel, the difference is indeed striking as we stand in the realm of time on this earth, in this reality.
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Hello Musicmaster;

I feel we're on the same page with the translations. There remain in today's Bibles the formal, functional and free translations that require further study to arrive at the closest to the Hebrew and Greek. This helps minimize the confusion.

We should also understand that our growing knowledge of the Bible, in this case, the saints and elect, will follow with different interpretations in the discussion. I don't feel this qualifies confusion.

Instead, should a student of the Bible express what they believe, further study is still required which is wise. Many times I have come back and personally stood corrected and praise God for guiding me in the Word.

This is a good thread and thank you for posting, MM.

God bless you, brother and your whole family.
 
bobinfaith said:
Hello Musicmaster;

I feel we're on the same page with the translations. There remain in today's Bibles the formal, functional and free translations that require further study to arrive at the closest to the Hebrew and Greek. This helps minimize the confusion.

We should also understand that our growing knowledge of the Bible, in this case, the saints and elect, will follow with different interpretations in the discussion. I don't feel this qualifies confusion.

Instead, should a student of the Bible express what they believe, further study is still required which is wise. Many times I have come back and personally stood corrected and praise God for guiding me in the Word.

This is a good thread and thank you for posting, MM.

God bless you, brother and your whole family.
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My thoughts exactly, Bob. Thanks. That was absolutely what I had in mind, because when I was pasting those quoted verses from the OT, I wondered if even they are an actual reflection of the meaning. You see, I don't fully trust the Masoretic Hebrew texts most OT sections are translated from, because they were sifted through the hands of Jewish rabbis who may have had an agenda to toy with the sections pertaining to the Messiah to come.

Just saying....

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Isaiaj 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.

Matthew 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. ...

The confusion seems to arise when reading English translations where translators chose English equivalents that may not be what is consistent with the original language. Confusing the line of distinction between saints and the elect, that's one of a number of issues I have encountered in our English translations.

Replacement theology followers will say there is no difference to whom the terms apply, but the deeper concept for those who believe God is NOT finished with Israel, the difference is indeed striking as we stand in the realm of time on this earth, in this reality.

MM
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Not to argue in any way.....but IMHO the bottom line is that both terms “elect” and “saint” refer to those who live by faith in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, and the promises He has made to each of us.

I absolutely understand your position, I would only say that the church is the elect, and so is believing Israel. We just don’t have the benefit of foreknowledge to know what Jews will accept Christ yet. This is where time has a big part in interpreting Bible prophecy. We have scriptures talking about how there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ.

However, Israel will be blinded as they have been since the triumphal entry almost 2,000 years ago. Romans 11:25 tells us that National Israel will not come to Christ until after the “fullness of the Gentiles.”
 
I’m actually more interested in MM’s interpretation of his original post. I know he left it open-ended for others to share what they think of the apparent absence of the word “church” from Revelation but I wonder what you take that to mean.
 
Skipper said:
I’m actually more interested in MM’s interpretation of his original post. I know he left it open-ended for others to share what they think of the apparent absence of the word “church” from Revelation but I wonder what you take that to mean.
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Now........I can not and will not speak for my friend MM. It seems that he is not responding for some reason.

There is a verse by verse Bible study here on the Revelation which I posted a year ago. I went into great detail on just this topic. Why not take a look at it.

The Greek word for “church” (ekklesia) is used twenty times in Revelation. Nineteen of these are in the first three chapters. However, beginning with chapter 4 the word disappears. It does not reappear until chapter 22 in the new heavens and new earth, which is AFTER Christ returns with the church.

However, IMHO the reason why the word "CHURCH" does not appear in the Revelation, from chapter 4 to 19 is for one reason.

Revelation 4:1...........
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

That is the CATCHING AWAY or the Rapture of the Church. It, as a body is no longer present on the earth and is present in heaven with Christ.
 
Major said:
Now........I can not and will not speak for my friend MM. It seems that he is not responding for some reason.

There is a verse by verse Bible study here on the Revelation which I posted a year ago. I went into great detail on just this topic. Why not take a look at it.

The Greek word for “church” (ekklesia) is used twenty times in Revelation. Nineteen of these are in the first three chapters. However, beginning with chapter 4 the word disappears. It does not reappear until chapter 22 in the new heavens and new earth, which is AFTER Christ returns with the church.

However, IMHO the reason why the word "CHURCH" does not appear in the Revelation, from chapter 4 to 19 is for one reason.

Revelation 4:1...........
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

That is the CATCHING AWAY or the Rapture of the Church. It, as a body is no longer present on the earth and is present in heaven with Christ.
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It just occurred to me that someone would ask..................

"Why isn't the Tribulation Saints included in the Church"????????

Well, for one reason Old Testament believers aren’t part of the Church, neither are Tribulation believers.

Then, after a careful reading of Rev. 7:9-17 we can clearly see that the destiny of these believers is much different from the Church.

They’re specifically described as serving God in His Temple, and yet they are never called priests. This is a role never ascribed to the Church. In fact there is no Temple in the New Jerusalem, home of the church.
Also there’s no mention of the saints in Rev. 7 ever ruling and reigning with Christ as is the Church’s destiny.

The born again believers are promised Heaven and the Jews were promised THE LAND!
 
Major said:
Now........I can not and will not speak for my friend MM. It seems that he is not responding for some reason.
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Huh? (scratching head) I didn't see any post visible to me that I didn't respond to. Looking back, I still don't see one.

Hmm.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Huh? (scratching head) I didn't see any post visible to me that I didn't respond to. Looking back, I still don't see one.

Hmm.

MM
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Post #14 was directed at you however the poster did not select the "Reply" option so you may not have seen it.

I have no idea why that is done so many times. It is kind of like wanting to say something to someone but not have that person know what it is.

No worries mate.......I think like you so I took care of you!:)
 
Major said:
Post #14 was directed at you however the poster did not select the "Reply" option so you may not have seen it.

I have no idea why that is done so many times. It is kind of like wanting to say something to someone but not have that person know what it is.

No worries mate.......I think like you so I took care of you!:)
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Hmm. I see no post #14. It must have been deleted.

MM
 
Skipper said:
I’m actually more interested in MM’s interpretation of his original post. I know he left it open-ended for others to share what they
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Post #14 from Skipper........
"I’m actually more interested in MM’s interpretation of his original post. I know he left it open-ended for others to share what they think of the apparent absence of the word “church” from Revelation but I wonder what you take that to mean."
 
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