the Bible does not say thus saith exactly when the rapture will take place . the important thing is be ready i have read and hear it taught both ways . me personally i lean towards pre trib due to Paul writing God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation. i fail to see why God would put us throw the wrath that is coming . but then again its not exactly a bed of roses at this point . lgbt movement wars rumors wars roe vs wade extreme high gas prices economy is in shambles and people dont want to work . time is near
Revelation
- Thread starter Major
- Start date
There is no doubt that the Ezek. alignment of nations is taking place in front of our eyes. THAT is why Russia invaded Georgia several years ago and Crimea. It gives them a land bridge.
Please notice in Ezek. 39:9-10.........
‘ Then those who inhabit the cities of Israel will go out, and make fires with the weapons and burn them, both shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears and for seven years they will make fires of them. 10 They will not take wood from the field or gather firewood from the forests, for they will make fires with the weapons; and they will take the spoil of those who despoiled them, and seize the plunder of those who plundered them,’ declares the Lord GOD."
I for one do not believe that Ezekiel 38 is Armageddon. There will be a 7 year Peace treaty at some time and that means there must be a WAR. Ezek. 38 appears to be that war.
Is it then a coincidence that the Tribulation is also 7 years???? Many scholars believe the weapons of Ezekiel’s battle will fuel Israel through much if not all of Daniel’s 70th week. Remember it’s only the Jewish believers who flee the Great Tribulation and if that is the case it gives a lot of credence to the pre-tribulation theory.
We will discuss all that as we get to it so I am reluctant to go into right now.
You are correct and No it does not give us a time, but this is not a study on the Rapture. I think we need to hold off on that discussion untill chapter #4:1.
The blessing in reading and doing the study is that The book of Revelation is unique in that it is the only book of the Bible with a direct blessing promised to those who publicly read it and their hearers. Of course, to hear God’s Word without obedience is folly (James 1:22), so the blessing specifies that those who hear also “take to heart” what is read.
I have heard that before, many times, however, Lord Jesus actually taught that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the "great tribulation", not prior to it (see Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27). Also, what Apostle Paul covered in 1 Thessalonians 4 is the same things that Lord Jesus covered in those above Scriptures I mention. Reason is because the Matthew 24:31 verse parallels 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 with the gathering of the 'asleep' saints from heaven which Jesus brings with Him, and the Mark 13:27 verse parallels the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 about those of us who remain and are "caught up" by Jesus at that same time.
I'd like to do another thread on that 'God has not appointed us to wrath' idea from 1 Thessalonians 5. There's more there about the events of the end by Paul than what many think.
Sorry Major, but I believe you are mis-reading that Ezekiel 39:9-10 Scripture. Notice the verses prior to that...
Ezek 39:1-8
Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
That above is linked to the Revelation 16:15-17 final battle on the 7th vial, and the "supper of the great God" for the fowls in Revelation 19 with Jesus' 2nd coming.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
That is about the final day of this world with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth, like Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10 on the "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night".
7 So will I make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let them pollute My holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
KJV
Those two verses above are showing when God does that fire, it's all over. I understand that some on the Pre-trib doctrines teach the "day of the Lord" is the tribulation time, but it's not, nor can it be, because of 2 Peter 3:10 shows that day is reserved for the time of God's consuming fire burning the rudiments of man off the earth.
Thus when we get to the Ezekiel 39:9-10 verses where you started, that "seven years" is actually for AFTER Christ's future return, i.e., Millennial time. Later Ezekiel 39 verses also reveal that time is Millennial timing when even the Gentiles will understand God's scattering of the ten lost tribes of Israel, and God's gathering them back.
Ezek 39:21-29
21 And I will set My glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see My judgment that I have executed, and My hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against Me, therefore hid I My face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid My face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, Which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide My face any more from them: for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV
Some brethren are not aware exactly who God is talking to with that "house of Israel" title. God specifically made Ezekiel a prophet to the ten tribes of the "house of Israel", not Judah (Ezekiel 3). There is some prophecy for Judah in the Book of Ezekiel, but it is mainly a Book written to the ten scattered tribes of the house of Israel after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. When God said above, "the whole house of Israel", that applies to all 12 tribes. When pointing to the gathering of "Jacob" that also is to all 12 tribes, since Jacob was the father of all 12.
possible but i fail to see why his children will be punished with rest i dont argue about it. i am ready either way if it is after the 7 year tribulation. God will spare us from it just like he did in Egypt with the chidden of Israel in the 12 plaques
Jesus shortened the time for His elect's sake (Matthew 24:22). So although the Daniel 9:27 seven years pattern still applies, it has been shortened, meaning the actual tribulation time. It is shown in Revelation 9.
And I am only trying to present the Scriptures as actually written, and not what may be popular. I learned a long time ago God's Word full strength is not very popular. I'm not out to win any popularity contests.
God's consuming fire on the day of Christ's future coming to gather us will not... harm us. We do not have to go anywhere for that to happen either, though Jesus comes immediately after that "last trump" change at the "twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15). Recall Daniel 3 and the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary which Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were cast into. Nebuchadnezzar looked and saw a 4th Man in that furnace with them with the appearance of The Son of God. And when they came out of that furnace, their clothes didn't even smell of smoke. And with Elijah and the fifty soldiers, God was very, very accurate with His fire rained down from Heaven to burn those fifty soldiers up. We have no need to worry about God's consuming fire on that day. But the servants of Nebuchadnezzar, when they just got close to that hot fiery furnace, they were incinerated.
That consuming fire event will happen first, suddenly, at the twinkling of an eye, and it will end this present flesh world. At that same time, Jesus will be seen coming in the clouds with the risen asleep saints He brings with Him. Then we will be caught up to Him and them in our spirit bodies. God's consuming fire is what will change all peoples on earth to their spirit bodies (Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up in victory), including the leftovers of the wicked that will be made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles (Zechariah 14).
Furthermore, Paul was correct that those in Christ are not... appointed to GOD's wrath. That is the specific 'wrath' Paul was talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that you are referring to. Satan's wrath, that is a different story. I plan to do a line upon line coverage of the 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter to show that. Look for it.
During the great tribulation time, it will be very similar to the days of Moses and children of Israel in Egypt. God's two witnesses He sends will have the power of plagues upon the earth, and to stop rain. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 represent what God did through Moses and Aaron appearing to Pharaoh and issuing God's warning.
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I just want to say thank you to everyone who is contributing to this discussion. As you each are sharing your thoughts, everyone is obviously making an effort to keep responses within the forum guidelines as much as possible, while also displaying respect for each other. Thank you.. this is how we learn and grow.
I do realize that considering much of the content within this book, it will become more and more of a challenge. However, I believe this can be done.
Again, thank you to all of you for sharing your understanding of this book.
I do realize that considering much of the content within this book, it will become more and more of a challenge. However, I believe this can be done.
Again, thank you to all of you for sharing your understanding of this book.
Dear Major,
Yes!
Glad there is real interest in this topic. I am starting back at the beginning of this discourse, in 2019, and working my way forward so it may be awhile before I can catch up, but I am definitely along for the ride sir.
Thank you and God Bless.
Thank you Ray for the kind words. I am only doing this to try and teach and inform the brethern about the times in which we live.
The Lord has blessed me over the years in many wonderful ways and I thought I might be able to share those blessings with others.
No more, no less.
I appreciate your opinion brother. I can not however agree and when I get to that point in the study we can discuss that.
Not to go into a lot of detail, but just to let you know where I am coming from, and to respond to your well thought out responce, allow me to say that I for one believe the Rapture and the war of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38) will happen about the same time.
It seems to me that God uses this battle to re-awaken Israel to His presence and I, like many others, believe that the Church will have to disappear when God turns His full attention back to Israel. Again, to me, Acts 15:15-16 confirms that opinion.
Then we must remember that the Book of Daniel says that there WILL BE a 7 YEAR peace Treaty between the A/C and Israel and If the above interpretation is correct, then The battle of Gog and Magog begins Daniel’s 70th week and Armageddon concludes it so they take place about 7 years apart.
In addition, Ezekiel 38 mentions certain countries not involved in the Gog Magog scenario which takes place on the mountains of Israel, while Zech. 14:1-3 says that God will gather all nations against Jerusalem for the Battle of Armageddon. The participants and the location seem to be different.
AMEN brother...........AMEN!
As we continue........may I take the time to compliment everyone on their postings. Please remember, I AM NOT THE FINAL WORD ON THIS!
I am sharing what I know and you are free to disagree BUT YOU are not free to be disagreeable! If that happens our Mods will shut it down !!
Revelation 2:1.........
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
In every church listed, the "Angel" of the church is the local Pastor. This 1st church is the one in Ephesus and remember....this is the glorified Lord Jesus Christ speaking.
Please take notice and you may already have done that....the letters to the churches were inserted by God between the vision of the glorified Christ in Chapter #1 and what appears to be the glorified Church in Chapter #4. Any thoughts on WHY that is the case?????
The Church at Ephesus had several good qualities which Jesus commends them for:
1. It was a Working Church.
2. It was a Laboring Church.
3. It was a Patient Church.
4. It was an Intolerant Church.
5. It was a Cautious Church.
This Church had many "Stars" involved in it.
1. Aquilla and Priscilla ministered.
2. The Apostle Paul preached there for 2 years.
3. Apollos ministered there.
4. The Apostle John also was there.
What does that mean????
It means that they were "exposed" and taught correct doctrine!
One of and maybe the #1 reason why the church today is floundering is that correct Bible Doctrine have been placed on the back burner so as to appease the members of the liberal church of today????
Jesus commends them for being "cautious". Cautious means...... Careful.
Jesus says in verse #2.........
" hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars".
Direct, simple to understand language! Oh my friends, do we ever need that these days. We desperately need preachers to say what GOD SAID and not what they think God said!
Today, people tend to believe whatever a charismatic speaker says. And when he says...."God Spoke To ME and Said", now we know he is a man of God and would never lie to us!!!!!
1 Thess. 5:21..........
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 John 4:1..............
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
Why does God say this. Why the focus on false Apostles??????
Because, whether you like it or not, there are NO Apostles today. It is Biblically impossible!
There are lots and lots of people today working real hard to counterfeit the "signs and wonders" of the Apostles today, but not a single one of them is legitimate.
Why??? Because the Bible says that the Apostles had to have seen Jesus, been alive at His resurrection and seen Him FACE TO FACE!
There are no exceptions to that Bible Doctrine!
There is an excellent book written by Hank Hanagraff called......"Counterfeit Revolution" and I would recommend it to everyone!
This church had many good qualities but they also had one devastating flaw! THEY LEFT THEIR 1st LOVE!
They did things out of DUTY with METHODS and SYSTEMS but they forgot about JESUS!
Jesus is our 1st and best love and without Him the church is nothing more than a social club!
In verse # 5, Jesus gives the formula for this church that applies to every church.......
REMEMBER - The thrill when you 1st got saved and wanted to tell everyone you knew!
REPENT - Stop polishing your halo. Face your sin! Break the false god of vanity!
RESPOND! - CHANGE! Do what is the right thing to do because it is the right thing to do.
Verse #6. Who were the NICOLAITIANS????
There are at least two schools of thought on that.
1.They were the followers of Nicolas who was one of the 1st 7 deacons. He went on to teach the false doctrine that indulgences of the body did not hurt the spirt of man. That turns out today to be the teaching that the Christian Liberty means that the man/woman can use that
as an excuse to practice KNOW - WILLFUL sin and still call themselves a Christian.
2. The actual word "NICOLATAITANES" comes from two Greek words and when used together they mean "To Conquer the Common Laity".
This teaching then became a specail priest class of indivuals in a special position ruling the paity or the average believer.
Take the time to read.....1 Peter 5:3-4; 1 Corth. 12:7-27; Heb. 10>19.
Verse #7.
The Holy Spirit speaks!
Him speaking has never been the problem. However, US hearing Him has always been a problem.
I will stop here and allow you to consume, digest all of this and make comments. It is my sincere prayer that some of this will help someone somewhere!
Remember............we can talk but we can not argue. If you do not agree..........Simply say, God bless you old man, but I do not agree and then we can still have lunch together.
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I am afraid that the forum rules do not allow discussion on the Rapture. I promise you that it has always led to confrontations, arguments and name calling!!!
Thank you Major for the work you have put into this.
I love the messages to the churches because Jesus not only tells us what we are doing wrong butt also tells us what to do about it.
Blessings to you brother.
I agree with all you have said.
Last week I was listening to 1 Corinthians in cd. The verses you gave make you search your own heart as well as give you more discernment.
On reading them again just now, was humility. These false apostles just appear not to possess it.
Just to clarify - The simple use of the word "Rapture" in a general explanation or broad concept, is usually OK as long as it does not create a topic specific discussion or debate.
This thread may continue with that in mind and we thank all participants for their understanding and patience.
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This thread may continue with that in mind and we thank all participants for their understanding and patience.
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It is sad to see the apostacy of the church happening. It breaks my heart to see it and the people who tolerate it and continue to attend a "church" that is obviously practicing false teachings. Thank you MAJOR for this study, just a comment on the war of Ezek. 38-39, in their book "Are we living in the end times" Jerry Jenkins and Tim Lahey wrote that Russian tanks are made of wood and coated with lignite ( brown coal) to give it strength.
I had wondered how they would burn tanks, if this is true it explains it quite nicely as a lump of coal the size of a tank should burn for a long time.
I had wondered how they would burn tanks, if this is true it explains it quite nicely as a lump of coal the size of a tank should burn for a long time.
Yes......the letters speak to those churches and they also speak to us today. That is what is meant when we say that "God speaks to us through His written Word"!
Dont believe everything that Lahey and Jenkins say or anyone else for that matter.
I read that same thing at least 30 years. The reason it was rumored then was to make it possible for the fulfillment of a prophecy in Ezekiel 39:9 that says that after the Rapture, Israel will burn Russian weapons for fuel for seven years.
Coming from an Artillery Division of the US Army, i ca promise you that Tanks, artillery guns, ships etc. are made of steel. Aircraft are made of magnesium and aluminum.