Roman 7 Part 4

[Noblemen]

If the old man/sin nature remains then Christ died in vain and there remains no more of getting rid of the old man/sin nature. "For if we send willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, the remaining no more sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26. The word willfully means that it pertains to the mind because the will is residence within the soul/mind area. This means that it is a sin originating they committed through the use of the soul/mind and body along well totally ignoring the "Christ in you" nature in the believer. Those under the law knew that man sinned and could never reach the place where God was totally pleased with them.

No one prior to Paul except Jesus knew that the problem with mankind was that mankind had a sin-nature\spirit. They never knew that the problem was a sin nature and that this is why they committed sins. After the salutation Paul begins the Romans epistle by writing about the greatest problem humanity has as result of the old sin nature residing within them. In the first three chapters Paul writes about the greatest manifestation of the old sin nature which causes corruption of the mind that is in union/marriage with the sin nature.

Immediately after the salutation Paul delves into the fact that humanity has a "mind" problem that will continuously get worse if unimpeded. In the first section of Romans Paul is not dealing with the source of mankind's problems but is dealing with how the sin nature manifest itself through compatibility with the soul/mind of human, Romans chapters 1–3. What this means is Paul begins by letting the readers know about the corrupt mind that all mankind has.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Right Thinking makes all the difference - His written word must change how we think
There is no getting around this - NO none what so ever AND THE WORDS WE SPEAK also play a huge role in how we think..
God Bless
Jim

 

[Waggles]

If the old man/sin nature remains then Christ died in vain and there remains no more of getting rid of the old man/sin nature.

Read Romans 8 - it is all about how by the infilling (or baptism in) the Holy Ghost overcomes this problem.
In fact Paul here (and elsewhere in the epistles) states categorically that to be a "Christian" one MUST be filled with the indwelling Holy
Spirit in order to be considered a Christian follower/disciple by Jesus.
It is only by the work of the Holy Spirit and by praying in the Spirit that a Christian's chaff can be burned up; and only by the Holy Spirit can one truly call Christ Jesus one's Lord.

 

[Noblemen]

Read Romans 8 - it is all about how by the infilling (or baptism in) the Holy Ghost overcomes this problem.
In fact Paul here (and elsewhere in the epistles) states categorically that to be a "Christian" one MUST be filled with the indwelling Holy
Spirit in order to be considered a Christian follower/disciple by Jesus.
It is only by the work of the Holy Spirit and by praying in the Spirit that a Christian's chaff can be burned up; and only by the Holy Spirit can one truly call Christ Jesus one's Lord.

Paul said simpily to the Roman jailer "believe"to be saved. You become a Christian by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Sinners believe, born-again Christians can confess now.

 

[Noblemen]

Right Thinking makes all the difference - His written word must change how we think
There is no getting around this - NO none what so ever AND THE WORDS WE SPEAK also play a huge role in how we think..
God Bless
Jim

Yes absolutely right Jim. I'm thinking of the scripture "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." It has to get in the heart somehow!! By reading and studying the scriptures with revelation and understanding as taught by the Holy Spirit. Hearing the gospel of pure grace brought to us by the Apostle. Studying Paul we see that he never one time mix's law and grace together, he deals with one or the other and must be studied that way for the believer too come to full knowledge of who they are.

 

[Major]

If the old man/sin nature remains then Christ died in vain and there remains no more of getting rid of the old man/sin nature. "For if we send willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, the remaining no more sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26. The word willfully means that it pertains to the mind because the will is residence within the soul/mind area. This means that it is a sin originating they committed through the use of the soul/mind and body along well totally ignoring the "Christ in you" nature in the believer. Those under the law knew that man sinned and could never reach the place where God was totally pleased with them.

No one prior to Paul except Jesus knew that the problem with mankind was that mankind had a sin-nature\spirit. They never knew that the problem was a sin nature and that this is why they committed sins. After the salutation Paul begins the Romans epistle by writing about the greatest problem humanity has as result of the old sin nature residing within them. In the first three chapters Paul writes about the greatest manifestation of the old sin nature which causes corruption of the mind that is in union/marriage with the sin nature.

Immediately after the salutation Paul delves into the fact that humanity has a "mind" problem that will continuously get worse if unimpeded. In the first section of Romans Paul is not dealing with the source of mankind's problems but is dealing with how the sin nature manifest itself through compatibility with the soul/mind of human, Romans chapters 1–3. What this means is Paul begins by letting the readers know about the corrupt mind that all mankind has.

Instead of responding to YOUR thoughts, and opinions, I will instead focus on the Bible verses you posted and see how they actually fit into your thinking.

Heb. 10:26.........
"For if we send willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, the remaining no more sacrifice for sins."

The sin referred to in that verse is "willful apostasy" and NOT the sin nature of man.

It is all about the willful, premeditated act of abof leaving a professed faith. The Boobk of Hebrews was written to those Jews who had professed Christ, turned their backs on Judaism, and on the legal sacrifices for sin, and NOW if they abandoned Christ to return to that Judaism, they HAD then no sacrifice at all. IT IS NOT AND HAS NO THOUGHT IN
THE DOCTRINE OF THE SIN NATURE.!!!

There is no other sacrifice save the ONE SACRIFICE of the Lord Jesus and those guility of turning their backs on His sacrifice could not find a second sacrifice. Such a person could expect nothing but the wrath of God and His judgment. Just read the next verse that was left out............

Heb. 10:12......
"BUT a certain fearful looking for a judgment and firey indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".

The Greek word translated here as "SIN" is in the present, continuous tense, indicating not a series of acts or practticing of different acts of sin BUT instead a CONDITION.

Again, the Greek word translated as "WILFULLY" is a very strong word which means "DELIBERATELY". In other words, the person has throught it through, weighed it and settled it in his mind to committ that sin.

This is clear to all who are willing to compare Scripture with Scripture and spiritual things with spiritual. Those who do not understand it either do not want to or are so entrenched in a religion that they have more respect for their religion than they do the Word of God.

There is without a doubt clear Bible teaching that says God in His sovereign grace has implanted His divine nature in the heart of all who accpept His sacrifice of His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. HOWEVER.......He has determined that while we are on this earth, we who are His through faith in that sacrifice, still posses the old, sinful nature and because of that old nature God in His grace has provided us an ADVOCATE who is that same Jesus Christ, the Righteous ONe!

 

[Noblemen]

Instead of responding to YOUR thoughts, and opinions, I will instead focus on the Bible verses you posted and see how they actually fit into your thinking.

Heb. 10:26.........
"For if we send willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, the remaining no more sacrifice for sins."

The sin referred to in that verse is "willful apostasy" and NOT the sin nature of man.

It is all about the willful, premeditated act of abof leaving a professed faith. The Boobk of Hebrews was written to those Jews who had professed Christ, turned their backs on Judaism, and on the legal sacrifices for sin, and NOW if they abandoned Christ to return to that Judaism, they HAD then no sacrifice at all. IT IS NOT AND HAS NO THOUGHT IN
THE DOCTRINE OF THE SIN NATURE.!!!

There is no other sacrifice save the ONE SACRIFICE of the Lord Jesus and those guility of turning their backs on His sacrifice could not find a second sacrifice. Such a person could expect nothing but the wrath of God and His judgment. Just read the next verse that was left out............

Heb. 10:12......
"BUT a certain fearful looking for a judgment and firey indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".

The Greek word translated here as "SIN" is in the present, continuous tense, indicating not a series of acts or practticing of different acts of sin BUT instead a CONDITION.

Again, the Greek word translated as "WILFULLY" is a very strong word which means "DELIBERATELY". In other words, the person has throught it through, weighed it and settled it in his mind to committ that sin.

This is clear to all who are willing to compare Scripture with Scripture and spiritual things with spiritual. Those who do not understand it either do not want to or are so entrenched in a religion that they have more respect for their religion than they do the Word of God.

There is without a doubt clear Bible teaching that says God in His sovereign grace has implanted His divine nature in the heart of all who accpept His sacrifice of His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. HOWEVER.......He has determined that while we are on this earth, we who are His through faith in that sacrifice, still posses the old, sinful nature and because of that old nature God in His grace has provided us an ADVOCATE who is that same Jesus Christ, the Righteous ONe!

Without dividing soul and spirit

 

[Major]

Without dividing soul and spirit

I am not real sure what you are saying my brother. Can you elaborate?

If I may and since this is about the sin nature and whether we keep it or not, a lot of people cannot distinguish spiritual inspiration from emotion, as it relates to what is attractive, what is humorous, or what is desirable. Actually these two can be defined readily. Emotion always enters from man’s outside, whereas inspiration originates with the Holy Spirit in man’s spirit. Inspiration may be imparted in the coldest and most tranquil environment; it does not require the encouragement of scenic wonder because inspiration comes from within. That is because we are saved from the inside out through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Emotion is just the opposite. Emotion withers the moment outside help is removed. A lot Christians continue to be propelled forward by their high emotions. In their excitement they do many things BEYOND PROPER BOUNDS, actions which during times of calmness THEY THEMSELVES WOULD DERIDE and consider nonsense.

Things and actions done under excitement often induce pangs of regret and remorse in retrospect. Their spiritual sense raises its objection, but these individuals so lack spiritual power that they completely disregard its objection and heed their feeling instead.

WHY??? Because the old SIN NATURE lives in us still. Just as Paul said in Romans 7, they do what they should not; and after having done it they repent for having so done. Second, even those that HAVE experienced the dividing of the soul and spirit and who recognize stirrings of emotion as being soulish, and instantly RESIST can nonetheless WALK after emotion.

This is due to the success of the ‘spiritual’ counterfeit as I like to call it. Before anyone becomes spiritual he is overwhelmed by his powerful emotional feelings; but after he becomes spiritual, his emotion often pretends to be his spiritual sense. Outwardly these two are DIFFICULT to tell the difference between, because they are nearly identical.
For lack of knowledge, THE SAINTS can be deceived because once again the proof of this lies in the Bible teaching that our sin nature can not be eradicated.

 

[Noblemen]

It's my understanding that the cross is where the sin nature was destroyed killed out, in Christ. An eternal work of God that is finished and complete, never to be redone again. As I've said before I can understand why people still think we have a sin nature because of our actions at times. In my opinion if what you are saying is true why would God even provide a cross, it's like he died in vain, God for bid.

 

[Major]

It's my understanding that the cross is where the sin nature was destroyed killed out, in Christ. An eternal work of God that is finished and complete, never to be redone again. As I've said before I can understand why people still think we have a sin nature because of our actions at times. In my opinion if what you are saying is true why would God even provide a cross, it's like he died in vain, God for bid.

And right here you have answered your own question.

IF the sin nature was in fact destroyed on the cross.......
"why people still think we have a sin nature BECAUSE OF OUR ACTIONS AT TIMES".

IF...IF, we did not have the sin nature still with us then we would not be able to have those ACTIONS (SIN) at times.

Do you not see what you just said my brother????

God provided the cross but the cross did not save us!!!! It was Christ on the cross that saved us and He paid the penality for our sins which was death. That does not mean then that we will not ever sin again due to the sin nature which we carry with our new nature that He provided in the Holy Spirit. Because of what Jesus did we have now the freedom of choice. We have the sin nature but we do not have to obey it or give in to it.

What I am saying is and what I believe is relevant is that an ongoing battle rages within every Christian.

The Christian has two competing forces within him—the old capacity to sin due to his sin nature and the new capacity to resist sinning because of the Holy Spirit. The unbeliever has no such competition within; he does not have the capacity for godliness because he has only the sin nature. That’s not to say he cannot do “good works,” but his motivation for those works is always tainted by his sinfulness. In addition, he cannot resist sinning because he doesn’t have the capacity to not sin.

The believer, on the other hand, has the capacity for godliness because the Spirit of God lives within him or her. He still has the capacity for sin as well, but he now has the ability to resist sin and, more importantly, the desire to resist and to live godly. When Christ was crucified, the old man was crucified with Him, resulting in the Christian's no longer being a slave to sin as told to us in Romans 6:6. We “have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness” as explained then in Rom. 6:18.

Then at the moment we are saved, the Christian receives a new nature. It is instantaneous. Sanctification, on the other hand, is the process by which God develops our new nature, enabling us to grow into more holiness through time. This is a continuous process with many victories and defeats as the new nature battles with the flesh in which it resides—the old man, old nature, flesh.

 

[Complete]

A booklet, written by Dr. E.W. Bullinger, entitled, 'The Two Natures in the Child of God', is very good.
I have placed a link below, for anyone who is interested.
http://levendwater.org/things to come/The_Two_Natures_in_the_Child_of_God.htm

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

And right here you have answered your own question.

IF the sin nature was in fact destroyed on the cross.......
"why people still think we have a sin nature BECAUSE OF OUR ACTIONS AT TIMES".

IF...IF, we did not have the sin nature still with us then we would not be able to have those ACTIONS (SIN) at times.

Do you not see what you just said my brother????

God provided the cross but the cross did not save us!!!! It was Christ on the cross that saved us and He paid the penality for our sins which was death. That does not mean then that we will not ever sin again due to the sin nature which we carry with our new nature that He provided in the Holy Spirit. Because of what Jesus did we have now the freedom of choice. We have the sin nature but we do not have to obey it or give in to it.

What I am saying is and what I believe is relevant is that an ongoing battle rages within every Christian.

The Christian has two competing forces within him—the old capacity to sin due to his sin nature and the new capacity to resist sinning because of the Holy Spirit. The unbeliever has no such competition within; he does not have the capacity for godliness because he has only the sin nature. That’s not to say he cannot do “good works,” but his motivation for those works is always tainted by his sinfulness. In addition, he cannot resist sinning because he doesn’t have the capacity to not sin.

The believer, on the other hand, has the capacity for godliness because the Spirit of God lives within him or her. He still has the capacity for sin as well, but he now has the ability to resist sin and, more importantly, the desire to resist and to live godly. When Christ was crucified, the old man was crucified with Him, resulting in the Christian's no longer being a slave to sin as told to us in Romans 6:6. We “have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness” as explained then in Rom. 6:18.

Then at the moment we are saved, the Christian receives a new nature. It is instantaneous. Sanctification, on the other hand, is the process by which God develops our new nature, enabling us to grow into more holiness through time. This is a continuous process with many victories and defeats as the new nature battles with the flesh in which it resides—the old man, old nature, flesh.

A born again believer can sin or miss the mark - however the difference between a believer and a non believer is the fact that the POWER OF SIN OVER US has been BROKEN unto the believer. This means we can overcome sin or simply not over come, our choice. Just like everything else in Christ - we must make the choice and act on His promise then we will see it masnifest in our lives. This stuff does not happen just because we are born again.

Now then CRUCIFY THE FLESH is something we are to do. So if God expects us to crucify the flesh then it must be so that we can over come this sin nature by what Jesus did on the cross.

This was written to the post or thread and simply chose to use this post of Brother Majors as the posting place.
God Bless
Jim

 

[Complete]

Now then CRUCIFY THE FLESH is something we are to do. So if God expects us to crucify the flesh then it must be so that we can over come this sin nature by what Jesus did on the cross.

Hi Jim,

Yes, but that can only be done by the 'reckoning' of faith, can't it, Jim? Reckoning the old man to be indeed crucified with Christ, and rising up and walking in the light of the presence of God, in Christ Jesus.

Noblemen is reckoning on, and believing what God has said concerning the Old man, that he was crucified with Christ, by God's 'reckoning'. Which fact, transcends 'sight' and 'experience', and simply believes and walks by faith.

'Sight', demands that we acknowledge the two natures that reside in the believer, and so does 'experience', for it sees and experiences the conflict they bring, but faith, though not ignorant of their existence within, chooses to walk by faith in the light of God's reckoning. As a partaker of the new nature, and complete in Christ.

Praise His Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Hi Jim,

Yes, but that can only be done by the 'reckoning' of faith, can't it, Jim? Reckoning the old man to be indeed crucified with Christ, and rising up and walking in the light of the presence of God, in Christ Jesus.

Noblemen is reckoning on, and believing what God has said concerning the Old man, that he was crucified with Christ, by God's 'reckoning'. Which fact, transcends 'sight' and 'experience', and simply believes and walks by faith.

'Sight', demands that we acknowledge the two natures that reside in the believer, and so does 'experience', for it sees and experiences the conflict they bring, but faith, though not ignorant of their existence within, chooses to walk by faith in the light of God's reckoning. As a partaker of the new nature, and complete in Christ.

Praise His Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hello Chris,
I am not sure how you mean reckoning of faith here.
The old sin nature being destroyed is not different then any other promise of God for us. It is already done - but we have our part to activate it or make it so. Another words. The old sin nature is defeated - which means we have been given AUTHORITY over it - which means we must operate in such a manner that we can apply this authority.

Either we do this or we dont - the fact still remains the same - the power of it was broken and it is up to each of us to do something with it. We have no excuse not to. There is no excuse to cover why we did not walk in an over coming this sin nature,

God Bless
Jim

 

[Complete]

Hello Chris,
I am not sure how you mean reckoning of faith here.
The old sin nature being destroyed is not different then any other promise of God for us. It is already done - but we have our part to activate it or make it so. Another words. The old sin nature is defeated - which means we have been given AUTHORITY over it - which means we must operate in such a manner that we can apply this authority.

Either we do this or we dont - the fact still remains the same - the power of it was broken and it is up to each of us to do something with it. We have no excuse not to. There is no excuse to cover why we did not walk in an over coming this sin nature,

God Bless
Jim

Hello again,

It is a reckoning of faith: because sense and experience also has to acknowledge the presence within of both natures, the one we were born with, and that which has been divinely given, by God's grace. That is true in regard to both sense, experience and the written Word of God. So, though I acknowledge Nobleman's action, in reckoning the Old Man as crucified with Christ, I cannot deny the truth upon which Major also stands, for the Word of God tells us of the indwelling of two natures, and describes the conflict that is there as a result.

It is God which reckons the old man to have died with Christ. That is our 'standing' before Him, and is true. Yet in regard to our 'state' we will have both within us until we die, though the one is now made powerless by the presence of the other.

We are His workmanship, to debate this issue is pointless, for both is equally true. This is a faith position, based on God's reckoning.

It is the same principle as, 'I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live ... ' - ( - the life which I now live, I live by the faith of Him who loved me and gave Himself for me.')

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Noblemen]

What I am saying is what I mean. I'm not spiritualizing anything I believe the Bible says exactly what it means. I have explained before why I believe the believer still sin's at times, "it's a mind thing now." Trained, taught, however you want to say it, "by the old man, (which has been crucified) so it looks and resembles the old man. It's an age old question and many theories have come out of Romans 5, 6, 7, 8. What about the scriptures that say "we were crucified with Christ" that is so hard to understand. If the believer continues to spiritualize most everything he believes to try to explain away why he sin's, he will miss the point that Paul was making in all four of these chapters.

 

[Complete]

No one is 'missing the point' here, Noblemen.

I agree that it is a mind thing now, in practice: but the basis for it, made known in Romans 5:12-8:39 remains just as true as it ever was. The believers identification with Christ is a reckoning of God. 'I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live ...'. I am not spiritualising anything away, Nobelmen. It is a practical reality, but by faith.

Praise God!

So, to argue the point like this is futile.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Major]

Hi Jim,

Yes, but that can only be done by the 'reckoning' of faith, can't it, Jim? Reckoning the old man to be indeed crucified with Christ, and rising up and walking in the light of the presence of God, in Christ Jesus.

Noblemen is reckoning on, and believing what God has said concerning the Old man, that he was crucified with Christ, by God's 'reckoning'. Which fact, transcends 'sight' and 'experience', and simply believes and walks by faith.

'Sight', demands that we acknowledge the two natures that reside in the believer, and so does 'experience', for it sees and experiences the conflict they bring, but faith, though not ignorant of their existence within, chooses to walk by faith in the light of God's reckoning. As a partaker of the new nature, and complete in Christ.

Praise His Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Well said Chris!

 

[Major]

No one is 'missing the point' here, Noblemen.

I agree that it is a mind thing now, in practice: but the basis for it, made known in Romans 5:12-8:39 remains just as true as it ever was. The believers identification with Christ is a reckoning of God. 'I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live ...'. I am not spiritualising anything away, Nobelmen. It is a practical reality, but by faith.

Praise God!

So, to argue the point like this is futile.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Agreed!

 

[Major]

A born again believer can sin or miss the mark - however the difference between a believer and a non believer is the fact that the POWER OF SIN OVER US has been BROKEN unto the believer. This means we can overcome sin or simply not over come, our choice. Just like everything else in Christ - we must make the choice and act on His promise then we will see it masnifest in our lives. This stuff does not happen just because we are born again.

Now then CRUCIFY THE FLESH is something we are to do. So if God expects us to crucify the flesh then it must be so that we can over come this sin nature by what Jesus did on the cross.

This was written to the post or thread and simply chose to use this post of Brother Majors as the posting place.
God Bless
Jim

We have agreed on this point Jim. A couple of times now. The key verse in Romans 6 is verse 7.....
"For he that is dead is freed from sin".

That however in no way means that the "sin nature or flesh" has been destroyed as Nobleman has stipulated.
It means as you have stated and I agree as well as Chris that we are no longer condemned by our sins, for the shed blood of Jesus has cleansed us from our old ways and granted us justification from our sin debt. Consequently.

We are instructed to live a new life, which can be beautiful as we live in obedience to God's will, and that obedience will give us joy and peace!

Paul writes in I Corinthians 9:26-27..........
"I therefore run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection;..".

Now WHY would Paul say that???? He realized that while serving the Lord, he was experiencing a battle between his flesh (old sin nature) and his spirit, that is why the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write so much scripture based upon our necessity to "fight the good fight of faith" as seen in I Tim. 6:12.

Every single day we all must realize that Satan will by all means do all he can to set stumbling blocks in our way of
victory in Jesus. Yes, we surly do have victory in Jesus, but that does not mean there is no battle. Our flesh is very real, and
Satan will do all He can to feed into our fleshly lusts, whether our weakness is covetousness, lying, pornography, hate, or a
multitude of other sins.

Yes, our old man is crucified with Christ, but that does not mean our flesh dies, that is our duty. The Holy Spirit will strengthen us in this battle, but we must be submissive and obedient and faithful to God as Chris pointed out.

I Peter 2:11 says...........
"Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims' abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul".