Romans 7, Part Two

[Fish Catcher Jim]

No Jim I did not say that. YOU just said that. What I did was post what Paul said through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
What Bible verses can you post to back up your comment???

I said in comment #31........
Romans 5:12............ “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."

Do you not understand then that in our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. The sin nature WILL BE ERADICATED in due time when we received "glorified bodies" just like Jesus Christ. Because of our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature.

Sin is not measured by the individual being half a sinner or a full sinner. We are ALL sinners by nature and NO we can not help that.

What I have been saying is that it is a Bible fact that even a person who has once been freed from the controlling power of sin by Jesus' blood, can become a captive to sin again.

Consider the words of the Apostle Peter to Simon, who previously came to the point of believing, which merited Christian baptism in Acts 8:13............
" Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin".

Peter the Apostle also wrote of this same possibility reoccurring to those who had been truly saved. In 1 Peter 1:23 his audience was already born again and redeemed by Jesus precious blood in 1:18, but such would not, in itself, prevent them from becoming captive to sin again, as occurred to Simon in Acts 8:13, 23.

Consequently, there has to be free will and human responsibility involved in staying free. Instead of conforming to the evil desires we had when unsaved, Christians are commanded to be holy in all you do: As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy" and we see that recorded in 1 Pet. 1:14-16.

Major do you not understand that this sin nature in 5:12 is talking about the sin nature that was loosed because of the fall and sin released into this world. The blood of Christ has set us free from this sin nature. This means it has not hold on us UNLESS WE ALLOW IT TO.

So for those who think they will always simply be sin natured - well yea you more then likely will.

As for your take on (( but such would not, in itself, prevent them from becoming captive to sin again, )) Think Brother - Just being redeemed wont get the job done. We MUST WORK 24/7/365 in renwing the way we think and act and live in order for this redemption to stay effective.

You seem to feel that we always will have to worry about this sin nature. The truth is - actually no you dont.

Major you posted this - (( Consider the words of the Apostle Peter to Simon, who previously came to the point of believing, which merited Christian baptism in Acts 8:13............
" Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin". ))

Look at the discriptiuon of the heart and can be applied to people - that is being talked about - full of bitterness - and captive to sin. This says their thinking was wrong and it says they had bitter attitudes or not walking in Love and Peace. Their hearts were wrong. All this is NOT some one who is practicing
Romans 12:2 ....
And be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God

(( Get His word in you each and every day and speak His word each and every day ))

2 Corinthians 10:4-5
4... For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to pulling down strong holds
5... Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

(( Begin to practice the words you speak and thoughts you think for our thoughts and words to control how we act or react and believe. Our own words do more do influence our thinking then most of everything else. ))

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh

(( The more you do the first two the more you will begin to walk in the Spirit and you will be amazed to say the least. ))
All done through the Grace of God
who maketh all grace abound to me. ( 2 Corinthians 9:8 )

Those who put into practice 24/7/365 the above will not be under the control of the olod sin nature. Those that do not will have this sin nature to fight with.

Jesus left you peace and not the type the world enjoys. Do you walk in it at all times ? You could if you learn to walk in His ways totally - but far to many are not disciplined enough to do so.

People need to take the words Jesus spoke totally as truth and then find out how to make them activated in their lives other wise the never truly rise above the fruits of their ol nature.
God Bless

 

[Complete]

'For what the law could not do,
in that it was weak through the flesh,
God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh,
but after the Spirit.'
What jumped out to me on this, was 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit'.
We 'walk' after one or the other. We aren't confined to one or the other. We have both of these within and without, and must choose, based on our maturity, which we go after. Having God's Word in us helps immensely in that choice, but temptations draw us away to the flesh.
Many times we cannot ignore the flesh, mainly because it causes so much pain, and pain is hard to ignore. It must be dealt with. We just need to remember to take the Spirit with us when dealing with it.

 

[Complete]

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say Chris. In all honesty it appears that you are trying to sit on the fence post.

'Teaching us that,
denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave Himself for us,
that He might redeem us from all iniquity,
and purify unto Himself a peculiar people,
zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority.
Let no man despise thee.'
(Tit 2:12-15)

Hi Major,

No, fence posts are just too uncomfortable.

The testimony of Scripture is that there are two natures within the Child of God. It is also the testimony of Scripture that although that is the case: by God's reckoning the Old nature (old man) was crucified with Christ. We are therefore to accept His reckoning, and walk as those who are alive from the dead. Only by doing so will we refrain from trying to improve what is not capable of improvement, and be free to serve in newness of spirit.

So, both you, Major, and Noblemen, are correct. Though standing opposed.

Like Paul, we have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not we, but Christ lives in us: and the life which we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved us, and gave Himself for us. (Gal 2:20)

In Christ Jesus
Chris


'I do not frustrate the grace of God:
for if righteousness come by the law,
then Christ is dead in vain.'
(Gal 2:21)

 

[Big Moose]

Don't let sin be your master, yield to God instead. Romans 6:12-14
Before, sin was our master. Romans 6:7, 18, 22 -These show us we are freed from sin. We now can serve righteousness.
Romans 7:6 - We now should serve God. There is no need to obey the letter of the law, we obey the Spirit who leads us to love.
Romans 7:17 - Sin dwells in my flesh.
Romans 7:25 - My mind and spirit can serve the law of righteousness, my flesh serves the law of sin.

Romans 8:12, 13, 14 - You don't have to do what your fleshy sin nature urges you to do. IF you live after the flesh, IF you thru the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, you will live. You still have the "deeds of the body" not the deeds of the spirit. The IF's mean you have the choice of which to follow. And it is not always or often an easy choice.
Romans 8:21, 22, 23 - The body / flesh shall be delivered. Even we who walk in the Spirit groan for the day our bodies receive redemption.

Romans 8:24 We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don’t need to hope for it. 25 But if we look forward to something we don’t yet have, we must wait patiently and confidently.) NLT

 

[Complete]

Don't let sin be your master, yield to God instead. Romans 6:12-14
Before, sin was our master. Romans 6:7, 18, 22 -These show us we are freed from sin. We now can serve righteousness.
Romans 7:6 - We now should serve God. There is no need to obey the letter of the law, we obey the Spirit who leads us to love.
Romans 7:17 - Sin dwells in my flesh.
Romans 7:25 - My mind and spirit can serve the law of righteousness, my flesh serves the law of sin.

Romans 8:12, 13, 14 - You don't have to do what your fleshy sin nature urges you to do. IF you live after the flesh, IF you thru the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, you will live. You still have the "deeds of the body" not the deeds of the spirit. The IF's mean you have the choice of which to follow. And it is not always or often an easy choice.
Romans 8:21, 22, 23 - The body / flesh shall be delivered. Even we who walk in the Spirit groan for the day our bodies receive redemption.

Romans 8:24 We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don’t need to hope for it. 25 But if we look forward to something we don’t yet have, we must wait patiently and confidently.) NLT

Hi Big Moose,

I wanted to respond to your previous post last night, but it was just too late, so I will respond to this one instead.

The answer to all of this is to do what Nobelmen is doing, and that is to reckon the Old man (or old nature) to be dead: and to turn our eyes upon Christ our risen Lord, and walk in gratitude, love and praise to the One who has given us His new nature which we can walk in. That is the way of victory.

We have the mind of Christ, we are to walk in the light of it. This is the obedience of faith. Looking unto the risen Christ, the Author, and Finisher of our faith.

'That I may know Him,
and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of His sufferings,
being made conformable unto His death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained,
either were already perfect:
but I follow after,
if that I may apprehend
that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:
but this one thing I do,
forgetting those things which are behind,
and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark
for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore,
as many as be perfect, ( or full grown)
be thus minded:
and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded,
God shall reveal even this unto you.
Nevertheless,
whereto we have already attained,
let us walk by the same rule,
let us mind the same thing.'
(Php 3:10-16)

'Let it be, Lord, let it be'
Praise Your Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified, Lord.
Chris

 

[Complete]

We do not deny the existence of the Old Man (old nature) but we choose to believe God regarding it's STATE.
He has told us that it had been crucified with Christ.
We believe Him.

Praise His Name!

 

[Major]

Major do you not understand that this sin nature in 5:12 is talking about the sin nature that was loosed because of the fall and sin released into this world. The blood of Christ has set us free from this sin nature. This means it has not hold on us UNLESS WE ALLOW IT TO.

So for those who think they will always simply be sin natured - well yea you more then likely will.

As for your take on (( but such would not, in itself, prevent them from becoming captive to sin again, )) Think Brother - Just being redeemed wont get the job done. We MUST WORK 24/7/365 in renwing the way we think and act and live in order for this redemption to stay effective.

You seem to feel that we always will have to worry about this sin nature. The truth is - actually no you dont.

Major you posted this - (( Consider the words of the Apostle Peter to Simon, who previously came to the point of believing, which merited Christian baptism in Acts 8:13............
" Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin". ))

Look at the discriptiuon of the heart and can be applied to people - that is being talked about - full of bitterness - and captive to sin. This says their thinking was wrong and it says they had bitter attitudes or not walking in Love and Peace. Their hearts were wrong. All this is NOT some one who is practicing
Romans 12:2 ....
And be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God

(( Get His word in you each and every day and speak His word each and every day ))

2 Corinthians 10:4-5
4... For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to pulling down strong holds
5... Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

(( Begin to practice the words you speak and thoughts you think for our thoughts and words to control how we act or react and believe. Our own words do more do influence our thinking then most of everything else. ))

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh

(( The more you do the first two the more you will begin to walk in the Spirit and you will be amazed to say the least. ))
All done through the Grace of God
who maketh all grace abound to me. ( 2 Corinthians 9:8 )

Those who put into practice 24/7/365 the above will not be under the control of the olod sin nature. Those that do not will have this sin nature to fight with.

Jesus left you peace and not the type the world enjoys. Do you walk in it at all times ? You could if you learn to walk in His ways totally - but far to many are not disciplined enough to do so.

People need to take the words Jesus spoke totally as truth and then find out how to make them activated in their lives other wise the never truly rise above the fruits of their ol nature.
God Bless

I understand your opinion. Dr. John Gill wrote many years ago about this very same thing and he said...........
"Being then made free from sin,.... Not from a sinful nature; nor from a corrupt heart; nor from vain thoughts; nor from sinful words; nor from sinful actions altogether; but from the damning power of sin: sin brought all men under a sentence of condemnation; Christ has bore the execution of this sentence in himself for his people; hence, as considered in him, they are free from it; and such as are born again have passed from death to life, and shall never enter into condemnation."

Matthew Henry also spoke to this issue and said in his commentaries.....
"The dominion of sin the sin nature continues to exist in that we are being willingly slaves thereto, not in being harassed by it as a hated power, struggling for victory."

I am going to stick with these comments Jim.

 

[Big Moose]

Hi Big Moose,

I wanted to respond to your previous post last night, but it was just too late, so I will respond to this one instead.

The answer to all of this is to do what Nobelmen is doing, and that is to reckon the Old man (or old nature) to be dead: and to turn our eyes upon Christ our risen Lord, and walk in gratitude, love and praise to the One who has given us His new nature which we can walk in. That is the way of victory.

We have the mind of Christ, we are to walk in the light of it. This is the obedience of faith. Looking unto the risen Christ, the Author, and Finisher of our faith.

'That I may know Him,
and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of His sufferings,
being made conformable unto His death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained,
either were already perfect:
but I follow after,
if that I may apprehend
that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:
but this one thing I do,
forgetting those things which are behind,
and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark
for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore,
as many as be perfect, ( or full grown)
be thus minded:
and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded,
God shall reveal even this unto you.
Nevertheless,
whereto we have already attained,
let us walk by the same rule,
let us mind the same thing.'
(Php 3:10-16)

'Let it be, Lord, let it be'
Praise Your Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified, Lord.
Chris

Philippians 3 speaks of the struggle against the sin nature.
"Not as though I had already attained,
either were already perfect:
but I follow after,
if that I may apprehend"
Paul sums this up in Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

The Spirit wars against our sin nature and is never conquered before Jesus redeems us. Unless you would dare to say it is possible to keep the Law in letter or in spirit. Jesus said even your thoughts.
I don't know about you, but thoughts jump into my head even before I can say no to them. They are reactions. You can train reactions but you can't control them. Our desires are what they are. The battle is with them.

 

[Major]

Philippians 3 speaks of the struggle against the sin nature.
"Not as though I had already attained,
either were already perfect:
but I follow after,
if that I may apprehend"
Paul sums this up in Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

The Spirit wars against our sin nature and is never conquered before Jesus redeems us. Unless you would dare to say it is possible to keep the Law in letter or in spirit. Jesus said even your thoughts.
I don't know about you, but thoughts jump into my head even before I can say no to them. They are reactions. You can train reactions but you can't control them. Our desires are what they are. The battle is with them.

Absolutely correct Moose! I have that very same problem. Jesus taught us that we did not have to do anything to sin.......
only think it, or lust after it.