Sodomites

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Feb 5, 2011
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dismas.us
Instead of just saying I have misunderstood your position, why don't you clarify things so I understand?
Because I always get the feeling you're trying to set me up for something.

How can we hope to have an intelligible conversation if we aren't talkin g about the same things?
No matter how clear I can make it, I've found that with some Christians we're never talking about the same thing.

Help me out here a little....what is your position?
Currently, I'm sitting at a desk. ;)

My position about what? This thread? It's about a mistranslation and misuse of a word.
 

qtld

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NOPE.............Homosexuality is not just a sin, it is an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD THY GOD.
And what about schizophrenia, psychosis, and the other mental illnesses/diseases?, are the ailing from such illnesses/diseases, sinners/abominable too?!

What the mentally sick people are guilty for where they are affected/victims of the "darkness"?!, first(-ly) they has been overlooked/cursed/defiled by/from the big/great spirituality/religion, and next they are being hated/discriminated without a droplet/shred of compensation?!

Where is the therapy/treatment/healing/cure for them?!, how is possible the Lord God to be criminal?!

Matthew 4:23-25 "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.",

Matthew 8:16 "When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:",

Luke 7:20-23 "When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.",

Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."
 

Ginger

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Obviously you don't want me to know where you really stand. You can keep insisting my motives are suspect, but, by doing so and then refusing to be clear in your own positions, makes your motives appear a bit suspicious.


I asked:
"If I understand you correctly, you are saying the Bible is not condemning homosexuality, but paganism as it deals with sexual activity of both sexes? Or prostitution and other sexual relations when performed to incite false gods? Is that correct?"

You said I have misunderstood. Would you rather continue telling others they don't understand an ything, or would you like to use this opportunity to help us understand. (shrug) why don't we have a shrug icon?
 
Feb 5, 2011
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dismas.us
Obviously you don't want me to know where you really stand. You can keep insisting my motives are suspect, but, by doing so and then refusing to be clear in your own positions, makes your motives appear a bit suspicious. :rolleyes:

I asked:
"If I understand you correctly, you are saying the Bible is not condemning homosexuality, but paganism as it deals with sexual activity of both sexes? Or prostitution and other sexual relations when performed to incite false gods? Is that correct?"

You said I have misunderstood. Would you rather continue telling others they don't understand an ything, or would you like to use this opportunity to help us understand. (shrug) why don't we have a shrug icon?
Obviously you don't want to ask your question again and give me some idea what you're talking about. Read the OP again, then read your questions.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying the Bible is not condemning homosexuality, but paganism as it deals with sexual activity of both sexes? Or prostitution and other sexual relations when performed to incite false gods? Is that correct?
Also, is it the word "abomination" that distinguishes pagan practices from other sins?
And is this entire chapter, Lev 18 & 20, about worsing pagan gods, or does it go back and forth between general sins that are always wrong and sin of paganism?
What do any of these questions have to do with the word sodomite? Yeah, I think you're up to something.

As for your post right before that, I'm not ignoring you. I didn't even notice it until just now. I'll go back and try to read it and see if it's more pertinent. Maybe your other comment will make more sense afterward.
 
Feb 5, 2011
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dismas.us
Ingbert,

I would like to have a conversation with you that I don't believe anyone has ever had before.
That's not likely to happen. I've been around a while. It's been years since I've heard anything new and original from Christians on this subject.

There is a "start a conversation" option where we can invite specific people or lock everyone out......if you think you are interested. Not sure exactly how to state the subject, yet....I'll give it some thought and then you can decide.
I don't do private conversations.
 
Feb 12, 2011
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“Sodomite” is not a scriptural term. At best, it’s a King James term. As far as I know, it’s only used in the King James Version.
I'm not sure about the usage of the word in English bibles, but I know that the word has a completely different meaning here (namely zoophilia) - and that the meaning changed a lot during history.

I also know that in Islamic context, the question if the sin of sodom was actually homosexuality is heavily disputed amongst different scholars.
 

Ginger

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What do any of these questions have to do with the word sodomite? Yeah, I think you're up to something.
This is what your first post said:
One of my old MySpace friends insisted on calling gays “sodomites” because, “That’s what the Bible calls them.” ......He’s not alone. I’ve heard a lot of preachers call gays sodomites.
It’s also incorrect to use sodomite as a general term for homosexuals.....
.
You further stated that the word sodomite refers to pagan sexual practices.

So, it looks to me as tho you are saying,
.......the Bible is not condemning homosexuality, but paganism as it deals with sexual activity of both sexes? Or prostitution and other sexual relations when performed to incite false gods? Is that correct?
But you claim that is incorrect, and can't clarify what you really mean because you will fall into a trap.

Well, never mind. It's too much work to have a profitable conversation with you when you insist on being vague and obscure about your opinion.

Have a nice day.
 
Feb 5, 2011
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dismas.us
I'm not sure about the usage of the word in English bibles, but I know that the word has a completely different meaning here (namely zoophilia) - and that the meaning changed a lot during history.

I also know that in Islamic context, the question if the sin of sodom was actually homosexuality is heavily disputed amongst different scholars.
Yeah, this is strictly an English Bible issue, and only one translation at that. You're right, meanings change. There are a couple words in KJV that are considered mistranslations, but if you at the history of the English, it had the correct meaning in 16th century English, but in modern usage has come to mean something else.

I've never looked up the 16th century meaning of sodomite. Maybe it was a correct translation after all.

I don't believe the sin of Sodom was homosexuality. The only reason that has become a common belief is the story of Lot and the angels. That had nothing to do with it. The whole point of the angels being there was that God had already decided to destroy the cities of the plain. (And where were the people of Gomorrah in that story?)
 
Feb 5, 2011
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dismas.us
Whenever the subject of homosexuality comes up there seems to be a general blindness to the 800 lb gorilla sitting in the middle of the room.
It makes no difference if one believes that gender preference is innate or not, or whether people do or do not have a choice, the one blatantly obvious thing that seems to be avoided is that homosexuality is all about LUST not love. That in itself makes it a sin. A man may love all the men he could want, the more the better, but don't attempt to have a parody of sexual relations with them, that has nothing to do with love.
Considering what you said in another thread (http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/attraction-vs-lust-whats-the-difference.30560/)

With attraction there is empathy with the one to whom you are attracted, an actual desire for the well being of the person.
Lust is the want to gratify an itch. Once the itch is scratched, the itcher can drop dead for all you care. Why do women so often complain "he never calls afterwards"? Because they were the objects of lust, not attraction.
Do you believe gays are incapable of that empathy and desire for the well being of the other?
 
Sep 3, 2009
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And what about schizophrenia, psychosis, and the other mental illnesses/diseases?, are the ailing from such illnesses/diseases, sinners/abominable too?!

What the mentally sick people are guilty for where they are affected/victims of the "darkness"?!, first(-ly) they has been overlooked/cursed/defiled by/from the big/great spirituality/religion, and next they are being hated/discriminated without a droplet/shred of compensation?!

Where is the therapy/treatment/healing/cure for them?!, how is possible the Lord God to be criminal?!

Matthew 4:23-25 "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.",

Matthew 8:16 "When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:",

Luke 7:20-23 "When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.",

Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."
What about those ILLNESSES? That is what they are my friend....ILLNESSES.
Homosexuality is a choice not an ILLNESS. You are trying to excuse homosexuality by equating it to a mental illness so as to make it acceptable.

A person can not be said to have a mental illness unless the person's actions substantially impair their ability to function in their work or personal life. Homosexuality does not impair one's ability to function; it does not impair a person's ability to fulfill their responsibilities at work, and does not prevent them from creating and maintaining meaningful and healthy personal relationships. Additionally, homosexuals are as psychologically healthy as heterosexuals. (Strickland, B.R. (1995). Research on sexual orientation and human development: A commentary. Developmental Psychology, 31, 137-140). Problems with homosexuality stem from the attitudes and actions of others toward homosexuals rather than from a homosexual's sexual preference.

We, you and I can say anything to make sin acceptable today and actually that is one of the reason the world is in such a mess. We call ABORTION a woman's choice but God calls it MURDER.

We call homosexuality as being GAY but God calls it SIN.

You can call it anything you want to but the only one that it matters to is God Himself and He is the one we will stand before on judgment day.
 
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Considering what you said in another thread (http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/attraction-vs-lust-whats-the-difference.30560/)



Do you believe gays are incapable of that empathy and desire for the well being of the other?
You can not have it both ways my friend. IF as you contend that homosexuals are mentally ill, then you can not turn around and argue that they have empathy and care for the well being of others. Remember.......
you are saying that they are mentally ill so then their ability to have empathy or care of others WILL BE IMPARIED. If you do not think that is true then I encourage you to spend some time with some really mentaly ill people.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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That's right. It ranks right up there with eating shrimp.
That is your OPINION because of your pre-disposed bias.

Have you considered the Word of God???????

God told Adam and Eve to populate the earth. He institued marriage, one man to one woman for all their life which constitutes a FAMILY. Homosexuality disobays that command therefore it is sin because it destroys the family unit.
 
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Major,

The point that is trying to be made in this thread is that it is not homosexuality that is the abomination, but the worship of idols. If I am understanding correctly the idea is that homosexuality is not the sin, but rathyer sexual rituals performed to appease false gods.

I am asking for clarification in post #11. I want to make sure we're all talking about the same thing AND what that thing is we're talking about. I am wondering specifically if the word "abomination" is the qualifying factor here. You know, is that the word that distinguishes between regular sin and the sin of paganism or worshipping idols?

If we hold off for a bit until we see what others actually think, maybe our conversations will go along a little more smoothly and be a bit more productive. What do you think?
I am agreeable to most anything that is civil and friendly my dear.

I will try and give you my understanding of "ABOMINATION" in Lev.
Leviticus 18:1-20 deals with sexual sin. Sexual sin is not called abominable here or anywhere else in the Old Testament. Abomination simply means a ritual offense: goat herders were an abomination to the Egyptians; dead bugs, pork chops and stale sacrificial food were specifically listed as abominations to the Hebrews. Often, an idol is called an abomination. Sexual sin is immoral. Religious irregularities are abominable.
Leviticus 18:21-30 deals with Molech worship, which involved prostitution, bestiality and a form of infant sacrifice: the idol, being hollow, was actually a furnace. The infant was placed in a carrier and drawn through the idol—thus the odd phrase pass through the fire to Molech in some translations. The will of Molech was divined by the condition of the infant afterwards.

Now having said that, allow me to bring something to your attention about this IDOL worshipping.

Many claim that evangelical Christians misinterpret the Bible to support their stance against homosexuality. In light of that, I'd like to bring up a passage of scripture to consider: Romans 1:18-32 (ESV, emphasis added). I've read this passage many times, and I cannot see how it could be interpreted in any other way than as a condemnation of homosexuality as well as other sins:

Romans 1:18-32...................

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The text clearly indicates that..................................................
  • homosexuality is the result of a divine judgment brought about by idolatry (verses 23 and 25)
  • the acts are described as "dishonoring of their bodies among themselves" (v. 24)
  • God gave them over to "impurity" (v. 24)
  • the passions are called "dishonorable" (v. 26)
  • the relations are called "contrary to nature" (v. 26)
  • the acts are called "shameless" (v. 27)
Therefore, the importance of this text is that homosexuality is wrong. No excuse is made for it, and it is described as both wrong and opposed to God, as are the other sins listed in verses 29-31.

“Two things never live up to their billing; the circus and sin.”-----Will Rogers.

“It does not matter how small the sins are, provided that their cumulative effect is to edge the man away from the Light and out into nothing. Murder is no better than lies if lying does the trick.”—C. S. Lewis

“The punishment of sin is sin.”—Augustine

The result of God’s condemnation of mans sin for their sexual perversity and idolatry was to give them over to further sexual immorality including homosexuality (1:26-27).

1. God gave man over to dishonorable passions (1:26).
a. Women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones (1:26).
b. Men abandoned natural relations with women and became inflamed in their passions for one another (1:27).

2. These people received in themselves the due penalty for their error (1:27).
c. The result of God’s condemnation of the was—since they judged it of no value to have God in their knowledge—was to give them over to their sin to the point where they have become full of it and encourage others to sin as well (1:28-32).

Isn'nt that exactly what we are seeing right here on this post????

Major
 
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You can not have it both ways my friend. IF as you contend that homosexuals are mentally ill, then you can not turn around and argue that they have empathy and care for the well being of others. Remember.......
you are saying that they are mentally ill so then their ability to have empathy or care of others WILL BE IMPARIED. If you do not think that is true then I encourage you to spend some time with some really mentaly ill people.
I don't recall ever saying anything about homosexuals being mentally ill.
 
Feb 5, 2011
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dismas.us
That is your OPINION because of your pre-disposed bias.

Have you considered the Word of God???????

God told Adam and Eve to populate the earth. He institued marriage, one man to one woman for all their life which constitutes a FAMILY. Homosexuality disobays that command therefore it is sin because it destroys the family unit.
Nope, that's Scripture. Read Leviticus 11. Abomination, same word.

God told Adam and Eve to populate the earth. Where does he tell the rest of us to do the same? Where is marriage commanded to be one man and one woman? The more typical Biblical marriage in the OT seems to be multiple wives and concubines.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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You're kidding, right?

No sir I am not. Please read the Scriptures I posted. I did not write them, I only read them and that is what they say.

Now we may not like them, and we can certainly reject them but they are the Words of God my friend as I listed them.
 
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Nope, that's Scripture. Read Leviticus 11. Abomination, same word.

God told Adam and Eve to populate the earth. Where does he tell the rest of us to do the same? Where is marriage commanded to be one man and one woman? The more typical Biblical marriage in the OT seems to be multiple wives and concubines.
Now you are kidding...right??

We are all in Adam my friend. In Bible theology it is called the "HEADSHIP OF ADAM".

Romans 5:12............
"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, and so death passed upon ALL men for that all have sinned.

Adam is the federal head of the human race and was also the "seminal" head (Seed). It means that everyone existed in seed form within Adam and he was the head of the human race. What therefore pertains to Adam also refers to all men.

Genesi 2:24.............
"Therefore shall a MAN leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his WIFE and they shall be one flesh".

Ephesians 5:21..........
(Husbands & wives) "Submitting yourselves ONE to ANOTHER in the dear of God".

1st Corth. 7:2...........
"Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every MAN HAVE HIS OWN WIFE AND EVERY WOMAN HAVE HER OWN HUSBAND".
Multiple wives and concubines are NOT accepted by God and are sin and those who practiced them were judged. Those who did those things had rejected the Word of God and did what they wanted to do.
 
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