sound doctrine
- Thread starter Lanolin
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Nowhere in all of scripture is the Bride required to suffer the Tribulation.
I’ll redo this to include full scripture. My computer shows the complete verse when I point to the verse reference.
Dear Sister Lanolin, if I may ask, are you familiar with the doctrine of Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2? And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.
In Rev 4:8 Even the four beasts or living ones describe this one on the throne as Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. “And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.”
This is Jesus who said in Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last . . .”Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.”
I would draw your attention to the fact that everything from Rev 4:1 are things “which must be hereafter.” “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
What is the time frame of this great occurrence?
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,”
When is this day? Is it not when Jesus sits on His own throne, starts putting down usurping nations and rulers as King of kings and Lord of lords?
For the moment I will ask what you think that the temptation to come upon all the world of Rev 3:10 is?
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Did you also notice in Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 certain saints with Jesus when He sits upon His own throne? How do they get there before the tribulation even starts?
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
I’ll add who these twenty-four elders and four beasts are according to Rev 5:9,10. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (actually over the earth in heaven) the earth.
I’m going to add the following scripture showing the order of being caught up to God regardless of which group is being caught up; the dead first, and then we which remain alive and that includes them that are with Jesus when He takes His own throne,
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I hope this cleared what I’m attempting to say up a bit for you.
Since this is the "Doctrine" part of the Forum Ste, will you please post the Bible Scriptures that confirm your post.
I’ll redo this to include full scripture. My computer shows the complete verse when I point to the verse reference.
Dear Sister Lanolin, if I may ask, are you familiar with the doctrine of Jesus receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2? And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.
In Rev 4:8 Even the four beasts or living ones describe this one on the throne as Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. “And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.”
This is Jesus who said in Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last . . .”Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.”
I would draw your attention to the fact that everything from Rev 4:1 are things “which must be hereafter.” “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
What is the time frame of this great occurrence?
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,”
When is this day? Is it not when Jesus sits on His own throne, starts putting down usurping nations and rulers as King of kings and Lord of lords?
For the moment I will ask what you think that the temptation to come upon all the world of Rev 3:10 is?
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Did you also notice in Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 certain saints with Jesus when He sits upon His own throne? How do they get there before the tribulation even starts?
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
I’ll add who these twenty-four elders and four beasts are according to Rev 5:9,10. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (actually over the earth in heaven) the earth.
I’m going to add the following scripture showing the order of being caught up to God regardless of which group is being caught up; the dead first, and then we which remain alive and that includes them that are with Jesus when He takes His own throne,
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I hope this cleared what I’m attempting to say up a bit for you.
Larry, you are spot on my brother! I agree with you 100% because you believe the Bible.
Almost my sister.
12 represents the 12 Tribes of Israel and the other 12 represents the Apostles.
If you accept the dead will rise to be glorified, why then do you not accept the next verse in that explination...............(1 Thess. 4:17)
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds".
Then on course there is 1 Thess. 5:9.......
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ".
That should be clear to anyone who does not believe in the Rapture but sadly it does not.
Tribulation is a time of wrath and judgment which the church is not going to be a part of because Christ bore our judgment for us.
Then verse 10 says...........
"Who (Christ) died for us, wheter we wake (Alive) or sleep (Die), we should live together with Him".
Dear Sister @Lanolin, I too am not enough into biblical numerology to fully understand the implications of the number twenty-four, but I do know the book of Revelation concerns the revealing of Jesus Christ to the church.
Since the twenty-four elders and the four beasts, or four living ones as its interpreted in other bibles sing this following song:
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
What this is telling me is that these elders are not limited to Israel, but they are of the Church. I do also believe they of Rev 4:2 represent those that died in Christ before the rapture, and the four beasts of Rev 4:6 are the ones that remained alive and were caught up to meet the elders in the air.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
I'll refrain from going further until I see how this is received. God bless you in Jesus' name.
You’re correct, the bride doesn't go through the tribulation; they are caught up prior to it, but to qualify they suffer here and now.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (Or endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him . . .
And who are these that claim these promises? Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (Over) the earth.
I read that the bride would be isrealites..or something. Im bit confused now. I know some preachers teach separation between israel and the church and others say its grafted in.
There are scriptures supporting each theological position. I am not sure what to think on that as dont know everything. But I do know on His timing everything be perfect so Im not worried, it is not a salvation issue. What I do know is christians will go through tribulation to enter the Kingdom and Jesus always appears AFTER not before.
There are scriptures supporting each theological position. I am not sure what to think on that as dont know everything. But I do know on His timing everything be perfect so Im not worried, it is not a salvation issue. What I do know is christians will go through tribulation to enter the Kingdom and Jesus always appears AFTER not before.
The patriarchs were israel and the apostles are church grafted in, I would think. Both elders.
I do believe in the promises of abraham extended towards the gentiles because under the new covenant Jesus paid for all of mankind not just his own tribe etc. Gentiles are grafted into Israel olive tree.
The fig tree that didnt bear fruit, withered and died. Jesus is the root of jesse. or was it branch of the olive tree.
I do believe in the promises of abraham extended towards the gentiles because under the new covenant Jesus paid for all of mankind not just his own tribe etc. Gentiles are grafted into Israel olive tree.
The fig tree that didnt bear fruit, withered and died. Jesus is the root of jesse. or was it branch of the olive tree.
There is the tree of life in the center of the new Jerusalem which bears 12 fruits, of different kinds, I think each branch represents the 12 tribes, the first fruits are the christians. The church, the apostles were grafted in to each tribes branch..paul was the apostle to the gentiles..this branch was the wild one..(not sure what happened to Matthias? He was meant to replace Judas) those unbelieving jews of israel were cut off, but Paul hoped they would be grafted in again.
This how I understand it, from what I read and meditate in scripture. I know the tree is signifcant because there were two trees in the garden...it seems to me Jesus cursed the fig tree..it was the forbidden fruit tree of knowledge of good and evil. We are meant to eat from the tree of life and live forever...and the leaves are for the healing of nations.
This how I understand it, from what I read and meditate in scripture. I know the tree is signifcant because there were two trees in the garden...it seems to me Jesus cursed the fig tree..it was the forbidden fruit tree of knowledge of good and evil. We are meant to eat from the tree of life and live forever...and the leaves are for the healing of nations.
Me thinks the four beasts surrounding the throne are those guarding the four corners of the world, eg north east west south. Centering on Jerusalem.
There are twelve gates to the heavenly kingdom. One for each tribe. The hebrew/jews enter first and then came in the gentiles.
Also there is a new name given..i think its beulah to the bride? And Jerusalem is named Zion? Not sure about this.
There are twelve gates to the heavenly kingdom. One for each tribe. The hebrew/jews enter first and then came in the gentiles.
Also there is a new name given..i think its beulah to the bride? And Jerusalem is named Zion? Not sure about this.
Dear Sister Lanolin, Jesus said this of John the Baptist: Mt 11:11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Notice below that John himself states that he will be but the friend of the bridegroom; not the bride.
John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom (Jesus): but the friend of the bridegroom (John the Baptist), which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
We read in Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
In Genesis chapter twenty-four, Abraham (type of our Father) sends his eldest servant (Eliezer - type of the Holy Spirit) to seek a bride (Rebekah) from among his people (type of the church). There is another thing here to realize; not all of Abraham’s kindred became the bride of Isaac (type of Christ).
Isaac’s bride was not taken from the world (Canaan). Gen 24:3 And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
Isaac’s bride was of Abrahams people, but all his kindred did not become the bride. But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.
Solomon (type of Christ here courting His bride) said this in Song 6:9. My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her. At a wedding there are many friends, guests, and servants, but one bride among them.
You will find objection to using allegories shown us in the Old Testament of things in the New Testament, but we read in 1 Cor 10:11, Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
You said..........
"I read that the bride would be isrealites..or something. Im bit confused now."
NOW.....Ya Think????
Listen sister. I encourage you to ask one question, make ONE comment at a time and allow us to speak to that question at length. You are all over the place going from one thought to another and not allowing for anyone to help you with an answer that may helpful to you.
You do not use the "REPLY" option so no one really know who you are talking to.
Read comment #455. Larry IS NOT confused. Read, study his comments as he is correct just Euphemia is also correct in her comments on the Rapture.
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Christian all experience testing and tribulation as a matter of course in this earthly life, but we will NOT experience the Great Tribulation that Jesus speaks of here:
Matthew 24:21 (AMP)
For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now—no, and never will be [again].
I know its something about not being complete until the fulfness of gentiles has come in.
I guess it depends on how well you understand the grafting in process.
Are gentile christians spared the Great tribulation as described in revelation? Im not sure, but all of us at some point DO go through tribulation to enter the kingdom.
We are spared from Gods wrath, which will be on unbelievers. But I suppose he would be more angry at those who heard and refused to believe rather than those who hadnt really heard in the first place. This is the chosen ones, the circumcised living in the holy land.
I guess it depends on how well you understand the grafting in process.
Are gentile christians spared the Great tribulation as described in revelation? Im not sure, but all of us at some point DO go through tribulation to enter the kingdom.
We are spared from Gods wrath, which will be on unbelievers. But I suppose he would be more angry at those who heard and refused to believe rather than those who hadnt really heard in the first place. This is the chosen ones, the circumcised living in the holy land.
Recall how in the holocaust those that took the mark..star of david, were marked out for death and couldnt buy or sell. Obviously they hadnt read or known about the book of revelation. If they had, they would never had taken it because they would have been christians and not identified themselves as jews.
They refused to repent, as old traditions had such a stronghold on them. They believed it was a good thing to take the mark..OR they got forced...but anyone who was a christian would say no, im not taking it because im not jewish or greek male or female im in CHRIST.
And then satan cannot touch us if we declare we for Jesus Christ, the name by which we are saved. They only had to declare it, but they didnt.
And then satan cannot touch us if we declare we for Jesus Christ, the name by which we are saved. They only had to declare it, but they didnt.