Sovereign Election

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Aug 12, 2012
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Let's see if we can deal with this subject more effectively and with far less acrimony shall we?

The bottom line is, scripture is our arbitrator, so let's use it and try to be HONEST about what it says.

To start what do the following verses say to you? What do they convey in terms of actual salvation?

Rom 10:9-13
John 10:9
Acts 2:21
Acts 16:31
 
Jul 2, 2012
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I agree with them and take them at face value. As I do with this verse.

Romans 9:14-16 (NIV)
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Well of course the Word is true, how folks understand it can be ....off the mark.

"Confession" of an affiliation to Christ in a Western culture is a lot easier than most modern, untraveled Christians think, despite encroaching secularism. Public confession of Him outside your comfort zone country is an entirely different matter....as it was a death sentence to early Christians, who were hated and killed by both Jews (a very Taliban type peoples at this time) and Romans (the actual precursors/role models to fascism)...

In other words...mere verbal confession TODAY in the West may not mean the heart is changed. Only God knows and their fruits reveal.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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I agree with them and take them at face value. As I do with this verse.
Romans 9:14-16 (NIV)
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Good, and I take this scripture at face value as well, and in the examples Paul gave from the OT here in the beginning of chapter 9, and as it follows what he was teaching in chapter 8, the context is clear. I see it as saying NOTHING about sovereign election, so in terms of the OP, what exactly are you alluding to and what is your position?
 
Jun 7, 2012
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Those are great verses that include the need for faith in the realm of salvation. We can also add the other side of the coin, the sovereign election of God in such passages as 2 Thess 2:13, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen yhou from the beginning for salvation through sancitification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."
 
Aug 12, 2012
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Those are great verses that include the need for faith in the realm of salvation. We can also add the other side of the coin, the sovereign election of God in such passages as 2 Thess 2:13, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen yhou from the beginning for salvation through sancitification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."


I sense a little bit of reservation in both your response and Josh. Was I not clear that I wanted to deal with this in an EFFECTIVE manner? My query was what do they SAY to YOU about Sovereign Election? Do they support it or deny it?
I don't know what you mean by the "other" side of the coin. Do you mean there are two sides to salvation or do you mean you only look at the one side of the coin? Do you think 2 Thess 2:13 contradicts the verses I started with? On it's own what does 2 Thess 2:13 tell you? What does 1 Peter 1:2 tell you?
 
Apr 15, 2013
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I agree with them and take them at face value. As I do with this verse.

Romans 9:14-16 (NIV)
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Josh--- Thanks for those verses. It is good to read the full context too:

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:16-24)

Praise God! It is totally of Grace. We need to believe, but if the Holy Spirit does not first enlighten us we cannot believe. Jesus is the "author and finisher of our faith". Eph. 2:1-10 is also wonderful to read. We were ALL headed towards wrath, but the words "BUT GOD.." appear in the verse (Verse 4). He stepped into our path---if he did not we would all continue on towards perdition. It is all of Grace, and praise God for His gift of salvation! It is due to the sovereign will of God. Hallelujah! I will refrain from posting any more concerning this, but wanted to put the verse you shared into context. It all has to do with God's mercy--not our efforts, or our decision, as Romans 9:16 so very clearly states. God bless all!
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Well, Stan: I always thought a Christian was "elect" or "favoured" once they were born again, not before the dawn of time before they or their relatives even existed.

God's Plan to save, His Plan for the Lamb to die for all (John 3:16, 17) was created before there was a place called earth, that was fore-ordained. He knew only a remnant would except His conditions for salvation.

After the fall of 1/3 of the angels, due to the creation by Satan of sin, God designed a Plan to stop him, and this planet is the the proving ground to end sin forever, before it spreads throughout the universe.

That's how I see it in the Word.
 
Jun 7, 2012
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I sense a little bit of reservation in both your response and Josh. Was I not clear that I wanted to deal with this in an EFFECTIVE manner? My query was what do they SAY to YOU about Sovereign Election? Do they support it or deny it?
I don't know what you mean by the "other" side of the coin. Do you mean there are two sides to salvation or do you mean you only look at the one side of the coin? Do you think 2 Thess 2:13 contradicts the verses I started with? On it's own what does 2 Thess 2:13 tell you? What does 1 Peter 1:2 tell you?
Does 2 Thess. 2:13 contradict the verses your cited earlier or even the idea of sovereign election? Of course not! In my view, Paul was pretty clear that God elects us unto salvation before the foundation of the world. Even Luke wrote of Gentile believers hearing the gospel, "...as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). I don't believe any Bible verse contradicts sovereign election. By "the other side of the coin" I was referring to the two viewpoints of salvation. God sees it from eternity past having chosen us before the foundation of the world. The sinner sees it as exercising his faith in Christ at a point in time. Personally, I think Isa. 14:24 states the principle of God's sovereignty pretty well.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Your post has nothing to do with the OP Fish. If you don't want to participate in the OP, then don't.
Stan-

Romans 9:16-24 does have to do with sovereign election. I quoted the full context with the verse "which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us whom he hath called", when speaking of the "vessels of mercy". But I will leave it at that.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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Well, Stan: I always thought a Christian was "elect" or "favoured" once they were born again, not before the dawn of time before they or their relatives even existed.

God's Plan to save, His Plan for the Lamb to die for all (John 3:16, 17) was created before there was a place called earth, that was fore-ordained. He knew only a remnant would except His conditions for salvation.
That's how I see it in the Word.

Amen Rusty...that IS what the scriptures show.
 
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Aug 12, 2012
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Stan-

Romans 9:16-24 does have to do with sovereign election. I quoted the full context with the verse "which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us whom he hath called", when speaking of the "vessels of mercy". But I will leave it at that.

NO, it DOESN'T Fish. Read the OP again until you get it. Then you can answer or respond.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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Does 2 Thess. 2:13 contradict the verses your cited earlier or even the idea of sovereign election? Of course not! In my view, Paul was pretty clear that God elects us unto salvation before the foundation of the world. Even Luke wrote of Gentile believers hearing the gospel, "...as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). I don't believe any Bible verse contradicts sovereign election. By "the other side of the coin" I was referring to the two viewpoints of salvation. God sees it from eternity past having chosen us before the foundation of the world. The sinner sees it as exercising his faith in Christ at a point in time. Personally, I think Isa. 14:24 states the principle of God's sovereignty pretty well.


Jack I'm not going to play your game of answering questions with questions.
Address the OP and answer question posed to you, then I will answer yours, or I will put you on ignore.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Does 2 Thess. 2:13 contradict the verses your cited earlier or even the idea of sovereign election? Of course not! In my view, Paul was pretty clear that God elects us unto salvation before the foundation of the world. Even Luke wrote of Gentile believers hearing the gospel, "...as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). I don't believe any Bible verse contradicts sovereign election. By "the other side of the coin" I was referring to the two viewpoints of salvation. God sees it from eternity past having chosen us before the foundation of the world. The sinner sees it as exercising his faith in Christ at a point in time. Personally, I think Isa. 14:24 states the principle of God's sovereignty pretty well.
Jack--- you are absolutely correct. One of the old Puritan writers stated "scripture answers scripture". To rightly divide the Word of truth is to see both sides of the coin. It's like looking at a parade. We are in one place watching the parade go by---we do not know what is coming next. But God is like the man 15 floors up, who can see the whole parade at one time--He knows exactly how it will finish.

From God's view those who are saved are ALREADY glorified (Rom. 8:30). But we are limited in our view ("we see as through a glass darkly") as men. There are scriptures which speak of OUR responsibility, but which are ANSWERED with other Scriptures that teach that GOD WILL DO IT. So is the case with election--"make your calling and election sure" sounds as if we are responsible for putting in force something God started. But another verse says "But it is God who works in you both to will, and to act according to his own good pleasure". The Word of God is like a TWO-EDGED sword. We need to see both sides to arrive at a correct interpretation.
 
Jun 7, 2012
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Jack I'm not going to play your game of answering questions with questions.
Address the OP and answer question posed to you, then I will answer yours, or I will put you on ignore.
I have no idea what in the world you're talking about. No one is playing any games, Stan. I did address the OP, apparently not the way you wanted. All I did was state my response with Scripture. Nobody says you have to respond to anything if you don't want to, and I'm sure you're well aware that you put anyone on ignore that you wish. The whole idea of a forum is to exchange views and opinions. Agreed?
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Amen Rusty...that IS what the scriptures show.
Glad we agree.

The common pre-birth election theory makes God out to be a Creator who creates the majority of his human creatures to burn...on purpose.

If one elects some to live, by default one elects ones to die.

I don't follow this false god of medieval folk Christianity.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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I have no idea what in the world you're talking about. No one is playing any games, Stan. I did address the OP, apparently not the way you wanted. All I did was state my response with Scripture. Nobody says you have to respond to anything if you don't want to, and I'm sure you're well aware that you put anyone on ignore that you wish. The whole idea of a forum is to exchange views and opinions. Agreed?


Yes Jack I agree, the OPs are there for a reason and the norm is to address THE OP. So address the OP. I asked a very specific question. In light of your Sovereign Election stance, what do those verses tell you? Other scripture of course is required and I did address the scripture you supplied but then provided you another one which you totally ignored. That has been your style since I've been here Jack and hence the reason for my addressing it. IF you refuse to respond to questions, then of course we CAN'T have a discussion on ANYTHING.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Glad we agree.

The common pre-birth election theory makes God out to be a Creator who creates the majority of his human creatures to burn...on purpose.

If one elects some to live, by default one elects ones to die.

I don't follow this false god of medieval folk Christianity.
Rusty---

Actually, that makes complete sense. It is very logical. The problem is, you are using finite wisdom to come to that conclusion.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and willto the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves". (Eph. 1:4-6)

We do not have the understanding or wisdom of an infinite God. How can God elect and predestine some to salvation without actually creating others for damnation? We do not know. However, we do know that God said the Lake of Fire was created "for the devil and his angels", not for man. So, we know God did not create anyone to be damned.

But at the same time the Bible clearly teaches in the above verse that Jesus chose some "before the creation of the world" to be saved and to live holy before him--they were predestined to do so.

Does it make sense? No---not to a finite and limited mind and understanding. We are not given to understand everything the Bible teaches. We are taught there is a trinity--we do not understand it, but we believe it. We are taught God was incarnated in man---do we understand it? No---but we believe it. Did God predestine and elect some before the foundation of the world? Yes. Do we understand it? No. We just believe it. How can God elect some to salvation without electing others to damnation? I don't know. I do not understand it, and wasn't meant to----one day I will understand---but for now I see as through blurred glass. I just believe what the Bible says.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Stan: I also see an active response required of those who want salvation:

"they must believe, confess with their mouths, call upon Him, enter by the Door"....and naturally, not mentioned in your OP verses, authentic repentance.

Real acts, real doings, real choices....all inspired and urged by God, but not forced upon anyone.

None of these are passive rights inherited by birth due to a mystical selection process from the dim past when they were not even conceived in the womb.
To suggest that is to believe in some sort of life before time for individuals....a pre-incarnation idea from the Greeks and Hindus.
 
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