Sovereign Election

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Quite honestly, I've never been able to discern what your position is and I would like to know. At one time you denied that someone can lose his salvation but then you said you opposed OSAS. I don't understand that that sounds, at first blush, contradictory to me and I would like to know how you put those two things together. That would be interesting to me. You say eternal life is NOT a present possession then you say you agree with I John 5:13 "effectively," whatever that means. I don't know whether I agree or disagree with you because I can't discern what you believe. I have no desire to "correct" your understanding but I would truly would like to understand it myself.
Believe it or not, Stan, five point Calvinists also believe in "Whosoever will...." That is really not the crux of the Calvinistic/Arminian conflict.

Well that is not from my lack of posting. If you refuse to see what I show then who's problem is that?
OSAS has NOTHING to do with losing salvation, but that is another thread so please don't try to get us off track on this issue.
I suggest if you lack clarity you go back and read the OSAS thread, CAREFULLY. This thread is about SOVEREIGN ELECTION.
The crux is that neither seem to be able to read and understand the Bible for themselves. I don't follow man-made doctrines and I don't know how many times I have to tell you this.
IF you want to talk about a flower or a star then start your own thread. I would be more than happy to participate.
 
No, that's what the verse says Jack;
οὐδεὶςδύναταιἐλθεῖνπρόςμεἐὰνμὴπατὴρπέμψαςμεἑλκύσῃαὐτόν,κἀγὼἀναστήσωαὐτὸνἐντῇἐσχάτῃἡμέρᾳ.

It's NOT an opinion, it's what the word says. I wouldn't brag about being a Greek professor if you don't agree with what all the current Greek scholars translate this verse as. Again you equivocate about A word instead of dealing with the point of the OP.
To say sinners do NOT have the ability to do anything good, is NOT taught in scriptures.
I quote God's word and RIGHTLY divide it. IF you paraphrase God's Word, then you are NOT agreeing with what He inspired men to write, NOT me.

Not only is "No one has the ability" taught in Scripture, you actually quoted it here. "OUDEIS" is "no one" and "DUNATAI" is "ability." It is the word that forms the root of the English word "dynamite." It means ability to change something. If you put a stick of dynamite in your mailbox and lit the fuse, a moment later everything about the mailbox would change. So, the verse very plainly has Jesus saying that no one has the ability to come unto Him unless the Father draws him. That is exactly what the verse says and that is exactly what you wrote. The inspired men (as you put it) wrote in KOINE Greek and that is the passage that you quoted quite accurately. I think the English rendering here is very accurate. "Can" in English carries the idea of ability while "may" is permission. If the verse read, "No one may come unto me..." that would imply that God is not granting permission, but it correctly reads in English, "No one can come unto me..." which conveys the idea of lack of ability both in English and in the original language. So, thank you!
 

Another example of how you can NOT stay on topic Fish. We were NOT dealing with v65, we were dealing with v44. This is the epitome of how people of your ilk CHERRY PICK scripture, looking for Words instead of God's thoughts and will.
Regardless, this verse you now bring up does NOT contradict ALL the others that say WHOEVER and does NOT teach Sovereign Election.
While we're at it maybe you should also look at what Jesus says in v71 here, which supports what I told you before about your assertions in chapter 15.
CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!!!
 
"He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them" (John 6:65 NIV).

I'm fairly certain that the scholars behind the NIV and other translations knew what they were doing when they used the word "enabled". Jesus is saying that no one can come to Him unless the Father Himself has drawn/enabled them to do so. It is quite simple---it just doesn't fit your theology, so you have a problem with it.

The following are five modern English versions with John 6:65, even though we were discussing v44.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 6:65&version=MOUNCE;NET;NRSV;NASB;HCSB

Do you now NOT accept v44 in liu of v65?
 
Not only is "No one has the ability" taught in Scripture, you actually quoted it here. "OUDEIS" is "no one" and "DUNATAI" is "ability." It is the word that forms the root of the English word "dynamite." It means ability to change something. If you put a stick of dynamite in your mailbox and lit the fuse, a moment later everything about the mailbox would change. So, the verse very plainly has Jesus saying that no one has the ability to come unto Him unless the Father draws him. That is exactly what the verse says and that is exactly what you wrote. The inspired men (as you put it) wrote in KOINE Greek and that is the passage that you quoted quite accurately. I think the English rendering here is very accurate. "Can" in English carries the idea of ability while "may" is permission. If the verse read, "No one may come unto me..." that would imply that God is not granting permission, but it correctly reads in English, "No one can come unto me..." which conveys the idea of lack of ability both in English and in the original language. So, thank you!


OK I see what you are referring to now Jack, it helps when you actually show it. Yes I agree that can also connotes able. The point I was making the very first time was that when God DOES draw us, but we have the ability to receive Christ. There are two parts here. I was pretty sure I made that clear in my post. Seems you and Fish were talking about two different verses. You v44 and he v65. My apologies.

NOW let's get on to the ISSUE of the OP shall we?
 
No, that's what the verse says Jack;
οὐδεὶςδύναταιἐλθεῖνπρόςμεἐὰνμὴπατὴρπέμψαςμεἑλκύσῃαὐτόν,κἀγὼἀναστήσωαὐτὸνἐντῇἐσχάτῃἡμέρᾳ.

It's NOT an opinion, it's what the word says. I wouldn't brag about being a Greek professor if you don't agree with what all the current Greek scholars translate this verse as. Again you equivocate about A word instead of dealing with the point of the OP.
To say sinners do NOT have the ability to do anything good, is NOT taught in scriptures.
I quote God's word and RIGHTLY divide it. IF you paraphrase God's Word, then you are NOT agreeing with what He inspired men to write, NOT me.

One must remember that Jesus made basically the same statement twice. Once in verse 44, and more strongly in verse 65:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day". (John 6:44 NIV)

"He went on to say, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” (John 6:65 NIV)

Stan---Jesus LINKS verse 44 to 65. "This is why I told you"(something he had said before). Your arguments are very strange. You speak of context, but then completely ignore it!
 
One must remember that Jesus made basically the same statement twice. Once in verse 44, and more strongly in verse 65:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day". (John 6:44 NIV)

"He went on to say, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” (John 6:65 NIV)

Stan---Jesus LINKS verse 44 to 65. "This is why I told you"(something he had said before). Your arguments are very strange. You speak of context, but then completely ignore it!



It is kinda hard when you guys continually CHANGE context. I any event, neither verse addresses Sovereign Election as such, just that God draws men before they can accept His gift which I conceded from the beginning. WHY you and Jack insist on straining at gnats is beyond me. Try addressing the issue of the OP and NOT Words.
 
OK...so therefore to demand that God drags an individual He has already "chosen from all eternity" based on the meaning of a word you admit (it seems) malleable to the context, seems bizarre. Why would He have to drag a man He has (in your eyes) already appointed beforehand? I don't see God as a Puppet Master.

"Draw" is a metaphor of wooing, IMO, not kingly power and might and force. My wife draws me to her by love, not by manipulation.
I don't think God is a "a puppet master" either. That is a gross misrepresentation of the whole teaching. As I told Stan, Calvinism also believes in "whosever wills." The OP very correctly pointed several passages where faith is necessary to be saved. Calvin himself wrote, "Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone" speaking of salvation's production of good works.

As for the issue of God "dragging," remember from God's viewpoint, salvation is a process that Paul described in Romans 8. It begins with God's foreknowledge. Next, He predestinates them, then He calls them, etc. The process ends in the glorification of the saint. If He knew from eternity past who would accept Him and who would not, why would He have to predestinate anyone? If He predestinates them, why would He have to call them? My only answer is: that's how God does it.
 
As for the issue of God "dragging," remember from God's viewpoint, salvation is a process that Paul described in Romans 8. It begins with God's foreknowledge. Next, He predestinates them, then He calls them, etc. The process ends in the glorification of the saint. If He knew from eternity past who would accept Him and who would not, why would He have to predestinate anyone? If He predestinates them, why would He have to call them? My only answer is: that's how God does it.

As far as Rom 8:29 is concerned, Paul writes; because those he foreknew he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son. This is NOT predestined salvation, it is a predestined plan for us to be LIKE Jesus, BASED on God's foreknowledge that we would accept His gift of salvation.
The term in John 6:44 is DRAW, NOT drag. That is a typical Calvinistic slant on the Greek word helkō and I have given the explanation of this before.
 
The following are five modern English versions with John 6:65, even though we were discussing v44.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 6:65&version=MOUNCE;NET;NRSV;NASB;HCSB

Do you now NOT accept v44 in liu of v65?

No. All (5) verses state "no one can come to me unless it is GRANTED to him by my Father". To be "granted" something is to be given the privelege, to have the door opened for you. In other words, to be ENABLED. And why in Heaven's name would I want to accept verse 44 in lieu of verse 65? Verse 65 is a reminder of what he said in verse 44.
 
"That's how He does it" is assumptive, IMO....Something that might work among undergrads seeking a grade, but not for me.

Once again I will restate myself:

I see God deciding before the creation of the planet that their would be a Plan of Salvation and He knew that some would accept but most would not..That was foreknowledge, not fore-ordination of creating people He knew would "fry", the thrust of the Westminister Confession. ("God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen." )

I do NOT see any biblical concrete suggestion that God one time before time ("the eternal past") decided.."I will save Jack by dragging him to me, and will not save Stan by withholding My dragging."

This is not an open and shut case, as Calvinists have many mutations of their theory.

This once again is total human reasoning. God does not "drag" anyone to salvation. Ezekiel says that God puts in us a NEW HEART that DESIRES to follow Him and His Word. "There is no one righteous, no not one". "No one seeks after God".(Romans 3)

The only reason we seek God is because the Father enables us (grants us the ability) to come to Jesus. We are literally DEAD in sins. God literally must call us from the grave to embrace salvation. Lazarus is a type of Ephesians 2:4-7. "We were children of wrath, like everyone else, BUT GOD who is rich in mercy, even when we were dead in sins, MADE US ALIVE in Christ."

To believe that you somehow made a "choice" one day to accept Christ is to not understand the total depravity of your being. Until Jesus "calls us by name, and leads us out" (as he did with Lazarus) we will remain in our fallen, dead and sinful state. Until one understands their own depravity, they will never understand Grace.
 
No. All (5) verses state "no one can come to me unless it is GRANTED to him by my Father". To be "granted" something is to be given the privelege, to have the door opened for you. In other words, to be ENABLED. And why in Heaven's name would I want to accept verse 44 in lieu of verse 65? Verse 65 is a reminder of what he said in verse 44.


Again you are paraphrasing where NONE is required. It doesn't say GRANTED in v44, it says DRAW. This STILL does NOT deal with Sovereign Election, just a word game YOU want to play. Not accepting v44 and stressing v65 is simply eisegesis and nothing more.
 
This once again is total human reasoning. God does not "drag" anyone to salvation. Ezekiel says that God puts in us a NEW HEART that DESIRES to follow Him and His Word. "There is no one righteous, no not one". "No one seeks after God".(Romans 3)

Do you not understand hyperbole Fish? IF this OT quote was to be taken literally then Elijah and Enoch and Moses and many other OT Prophets would be included in this, and they are NOT. They sought God, just as we can seek God today. Once we do that, God draws us to Jesus. NOT by changing us but by showing us who Jesus is and what He did for us.

The only reason we seek God is because the Father enables us (grants us the ability) to come to Jesus. We are literally DEAD in sins. God literally must call us from the grave to embrace salvation. Lazarus is a type of Ephesians 2:4-7. "We were children of wrath, like everyone else, BUT GOD who is rich in mercy, even when we were dead in sins, MADE US ALIVE in Christ."

That is NOT true or Jesus would NOT have said; But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. in Matthew 6:33 and in Matthew 7:7 & 8 and Acts 15:17-19
We are effectually dead in sin because the spirit is NOT dead, it lives forever. ONLY the body dies. Your distortion of scripture is again pure eisegesis. We are given Eternal Life for our body, NOT our spirit/soul. That will exist for all eternity either coupled with our immortal body or by itself in eternal punishment, as Jesus clearly says in Matt 25:46.

To believe that you somehow made a "choice" one day to accept Christ is to not understand the total depravity of your being. Until Jesus "calls us by name, and leads us out" (as he did with Lazarus) we will remain in our fallen, dead and sinful state. Until one understands their own depravity, they will never understand Grace.

To accept total depravity(Calvinistic word) is to deny who God created. Jesus acknowledged that man was capable of doing good things in Matthew 7:11. This whole paragraph is nothing more than Calvinistic rhetoric and NOT supportable in scripture no matter how you try and distort it. How exactly can Jesus call us by name if God doesn't draw us there first. Who is doing the work, God or Jesus?
Romans 10:9-11
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Again you strain at gnats and swallow camels whole.


 
"Total Depravity " doesn't mean and has never meant that man is as evil as he could be. It doesn't mean and has never meant that man can't do good things, like giving good things to his children. Nor does it mean that all men are equally bad. The word "total" is used in the context of scope, not intensity. In other words, man's inbred sin affects every aspect of man. It does mean that man is deaf to the gospel (Jn. 8:43, 47), blind to the things of Christ (2 Cor. 4:3-4), and dead the trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1). It rejects the notion that Thomas Aquinas had that man can "come crawling back" to God. Not if he is dead in sins. Paul wrote, "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Natural man can not understand the things of God because they are foolishness to him (the Greek word is actually moronic). The things of God sound like moronic jibberish to him. Jesus said in John 8:43, "You can not hear my word" using the word for inability. In the Scripture we are plainly told that man in his unregenrate, unenlightened nature does not know God in any sense worthy the name, and that the Son is sovereign in choosing who shall come into this saving knowledge of God.
 
"Total Depravity " doesn't mean and has never meant that man is as evil as he could be. It doesn't mean and has never meant that man can't do good things, like giving good things to his children. Nor does it mean that all men are equally bad. The word "total" is used in the context of scope, not intensity. In other words, man's inbred sin affects every aspect of man. It does mean that man is deaf to the gospel (Jn. 8:43, 47), blind to the things of Christ (2 Cor. 4:3-4), and dead the trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1). It rejects the notion that Thomas Aquinas had that man can "come crawling back" to God. Not if he is dead in sins. Paul wrote, "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Natural man can not understand the things of God because they are foolishness to him (the Greek word is actually moronic). The things of God sound like moronic jibberish to him. Jesus said in John 8:43, "You can not hear my word" using the word for inability. In the Scripture we are plainly told that man in his unregenrate, unenlightened nature does not know God in any sense worthy the name, and that the Son is sovereign in choosing who shall come into this saving knowledge of God.



and yet John 20:31 says; these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 8:43 is NOT literal Jack, it is metaphorical in context. Obviously those men could HEAR, they just didn't comprehend Jesus' message, just as all those who heard His parables did not comprehend, as shown in v 27. He was speaking to Jews who had believed in Him already, and He qualified their belief by what He said in v 31-32. Many in the Jewish nation KNEW God and accepted what Jesus taught, some knew God and didn't accept. You seem to confuse coming to Jesus with knowing or believing in God. Two different things Jack. Romans 1:20; For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Remember Jack you can't cherry pick verses, you have to use the ENTIRE Bible to understand Jesus and God.
Here are a few more scriptures for you to THINK about.
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Col 1:6
that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.
 
Again you are paraphrasing where NONE is required. It doesn't say GRANTED in v44, it says DRAW. This STILL does NOT deal with Sovereign Election, just a word game YOU want to play. Not accepting v44 and stressing v65 is simply eisegesis and nothing more.

You look at verse 44 through a telescope, then turn it around and look through it the other way when reading verse 65. Yet, both verses say the same thing. That is why Jesus says in verse 65 "That is why I told you..." The Father must choose, touch, and work on the heart of the person who comes to Jesus. He "enables" them to come to Jesus through his choice, and drawing power through the Holy Spirit. Why you want to play word games with "draw" and "enable" is beyond me. Both verses are stating that it is not a "choice" made by man alone, but is a decision made by God. I still can't quite understand where you are coming from.
 
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