Well Jim
All I can say is if you can't swim don't jump in the water.
Speculation
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All I can say is if you can't swim don't jump in the water.
Brilliant! ! However I can swim very well and do jump in!
Have a great day
How can this be?
The garden was perfect and Sin Free and Curse Free until man gave into temptation.
well. i think i can and have swam as well to safety with the Grace of God ... been to some rationalist forums before.. which is full of speculation...
would like to ask where now is the requested supporting verses to Opening thread? as it seems many of it's point is being questioned :
OP:
"Lucifer was already fallen when he tempted Eve.
What kingdom is being referred to when he wanted to be greater than Michael?"
1. verses to support "already fallen"? (i thinks this can be another thread, thus, a long story, so am more interested as far is this thread is concerned on the following No. 2 and No. 3 questions)
2. verses mentioning a kingdom is being referred to..?
3. verses where it was mentioned "wanted to be > than Michael"?
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Yea asked this and OP did not give an answer, so, kind of dont know what the point was.
Maybe the question was a bible trivia question for a crossword or something. Used to get asked random questions like this at the library all the time, one lady would ring up asking a trivia question expect the librarians to know the answer becuse of some radio quiz so she could win a prize. But she would get annoyed if nobody could answer her and impatient if we couldnt answer immediately.
Oh the rage when we said 'sorry I dont know'! Or wait, we will just google it. But google doesnt know everything. And it takes time to research a question. Plus, how do we know how to answer something if we are asked point blank a leading question.
As a pastor used to say, the answer to everything is Jesus.
A friend invited me to this thing called 'the jesus seminar' and it was a bit weird because apparently some academics are questioning whther Jesus actually said what he said in the Bible. They appear to think he couldnt have said all the things there and maybe people added things to the Bible that he didnt say. Well a very simple way of answering them is just obtain a red letter Bible and all the words Jesus said are highlighted in RED.
Maybe the question was a bible trivia question for a crossword or something. Used to get asked random questions like this at the library all the time, one lady would ring up asking a trivia question expect the librarians to know the answer becuse of some radio quiz so she could win a prize. But she would get annoyed if nobody could answer her and impatient if we couldnt answer immediately.
Oh the rage when we said 'sorry I dont know'! Or wait, we will just google it. But google doesnt know everything. And it takes time to research a question. Plus, how do we know how to answer something if we are asked point blank a leading question.
As a pastor used to say, the answer to everything is Jesus.
A friend invited me to this thing called 'the jesus seminar' and it was a bit weird because apparently some academics are questioning whther Jesus actually said what he said in the Bible. They appear to think he couldnt have said all the things there and maybe people added things to the Bible that he didnt say. Well a very simple way of answering them is just obtain a red letter Bible and all the words Jesus said are highlighted in RED.
Dear 2404;
I read your opening thread carefully and feel the replies from everyone are reasonable arguments. Our brothers and sisters are only responding with questions and deserve to know what is the verb of your topic.
In these posts are brothers and sisters who are good disciples of the Word and their personal walk. What is the context and scriptures being asked of you, so we can be on the same page and dialogue this discussion in love, fellowship, growing and learning in Christ.
If you were teaching this as a Bible study with 20 disciples, or, as it is here at Christian Forum Site, your topic is reaching the whole world. How does this thread teach us more about God, how does this teach us to share our witness to the unreached for Christ Jesus, and how does this help us to learn the Bible and mature in our growth and walk with Jesus?
Your remark about swimming to another member broke down your presentation. If you prayed and were prompted by the spirit to write this thread, then please prepare to be accountable to teaching with consistency the scriptures, and be prepared to give an answer so everyone can learn for His glory.
1 Corinthians 14:33, For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
If I offend you, brother, I'm sorry. Its not my delight. If you aren't offended and do have a message, then lets discuss this and get your message across for His glory.
God bless you, 2404, and your family.
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Thank you bobinfaith and I'm not the least bit offended...
It seems that if I participate here I should limit myself to comments...
God bless
Actually you should respond when asked to and limit the nonsense comments.
Blessings
Seeing the tone of this thread, I am rather reluctant to join in but what the heck. All that can be done is to delate my post or ban me and that is nothing new.
Anyhow, allow me to give you all something to think about and then you can all argue over it.
When considering Satan's fall, we can go to Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18 where his fall is symbolically described. Both of those Scriptures refer specifically to the kings of Tyre & Babylon, however that reference the spiritual power that was behind them who was Satan.
Now hopefully all of you will read those Scriptures and see why Satan fell but what you will not see is "When" that happened.
So then what do we actually know?????
1. Satan was originally an angel in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9).
2. As such he was a created being and the closest to God ( Ezekiel 28:14).
3. We know that that the sin of pride was his reason for rebellion (Ezekiel 28:17,).
4. We know that he is the originator of sin. (1 John 3:8).
We also know the angels were created before the earth. We know that must be the case and that they sinned before man sinned. We know this because the Devil tempted Adam and Eve. He had to have already been fallen in order to do so.
Job 38:4-7 gives us hint at truth as it says...……..
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (angels!).
So the angels were created before man and before creation of Earth and the GArden of Eden.
So then Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred hours, days, or years before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not specifically say.
Job 38:6-7 …….
'Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?'
Abdicate, can we agree that the "Sons of God in verse #7 would be the angles?
It is accepted that God is using a building analogy, referring to the "foundations" and "corner stone" of the earth. He says, in a very poetic way, that when the foundations of the earth were laid or better said......….when the earth was created, the sons of God or the angels shouted joyfully.
If they are not angels in that verse then what is the reference to?
That being the case then wouldn't it indicate that angels were created before the earth.? Satan being an angel would therefore already be in a position of authority but gave that up when he rebelled against God. As he is the originator of all sin, he would be in a fallen state.
So when was the earth created? The earth is present in Gen. 1:2 and the first day ends in in 1:5, so the earth was created on day 1. For angels to be present when the earth was created, including Satan wouldn't they have been created before day 1.
When we read Daniel 10:13 it seems that angels are within our space-time. So then, because Satan is an angel. and angels were created before man, and it was Satan who tempted Eve, does that not say that he was already fallen. Wouldn't he have to be a fallen angel in order to temp her???
I think I already responded to this one!
But just want to say a few more things on topic.
The Book of Enoch, which is not itself in the Bible but is mentioned in the Bible, could give us some clues. It does reference the space-time before or surrounding creation. Remeber the heavenly or eternal realm operates in a different dimensions to the earthly realm.
I understand the fallen angels part.
I just dont quite understand the OPs reference to Michael. Satan wants to set up his own kingdom of the world but it wont ever be greater than the Kingdom of Heaven, of which its recognised by believers that Jesus is our King.
In revelation, all the kings of the earth had joined forces with mystery Babylon and commited fornication with her, and they worshipped the beast. But Jesus shows that Babylon was brought down in one day.
But just want to say a few more things on topic.
The Book of Enoch, which is not itself in the Bible but is mentioned in the Bible, could give us some clues. It does reference the space-time before or surrounding creation. Remeber the heavenly or eternal realm operates in a different dimensions to the earthly realm.
I understand the fallen angels part.
I just dont quite understand the OPs reference to Michael. Satan wants to set up his own kingdom of the world but it wont ever be greater than the Kingdom of Heaven, of which its recognised by believers that Jesus is our King.
In revelation, all the kings of the earth had joined forces with mystery Babylon and commited fornication with her, and they worshipped the beast. But Jesus shows that Babylon was brought down in one day.
Lanolin, may I give you some advice?
Feel free to ignore this or to tell me to mind my own business but I think I should tell you that there is nothing in the book of Enoch for us to draw any Christian doctrine from. There are NO clues in Enoch as it is a pseudepigraphal (falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded).
When Jude quotes from the book of Enoch, that action does not then verif that the whole book of Enoch is the inspired Word of God. All it means is that the one particular verse is true. It is also very interesting to know that as far as I know, there are no Bible scholars who accept Enock to have been the original writer of that book.
The entire book contains many, many non-Biblical scriptures that even name some angels as the mediators of our salvation such as Raphael and Phineas.
Neither of those angels are found anywhere in the Word of God.
I do not understand the ops comments either about Michael and Satan. Michael is the only arch angel in the Bible but Satan was said to be the highest ranking angel and was in fact a "cherub".
Also, the reference in Revelation 17 to Mystery being destroyed in One Hour is yet to happen and many believe that its destruction is part of the final battle at Armageddon.
I know that but just putting it out there. After all the OP title of the post is 'speculation'. Maybe they want to 'speculate' on that. There are several books mentioned in the Bible that arent actually IN the Bible. Eg Book of Jasher come to mind.
Scholars may or may not agree on one thing, but not all of us are scholars. Reading the Bible isnt like in science where you need to an hypothesis and get everyone to agree with you. This is why theres different commentaries and some of them actually seem to contradict each other.
But if you just go to the Word and ask God He will show you what He means.
Scholars may or may not agree on one thing, but not all of us are scholars. Reading the Bible isnt like in science where you need to an hypothesis and get everyone to agree with you. This is why theres different commentaries and some of them actually seem to contradict each other.
But if you just go to the Word and ask God He will show you what He means.
Sometimes I think people can be picky about who wrote what. The first five books of the Bible are Books of Moses, but the last one would not have been written by Moses himself as he died in his own story! I mean Job and Ruth probably did not write their own books, when it says Book of...sometimes it means its about that person or from their viewpoint but they may not have actually written it themselves. I mean a lot of bios and memoirs are actually ghostwritten. God himself says all scripture is God breathed i.e inspired by the holy spirit.
Enoch was mentioned in the Bible as someone who walked with God. He was the ancestor of Noah. It says he was taken by God in Genesis 5:21-24. Some people interpret this to mean he was whisked away to heaven without dying.I dont know, but he he seemed to have a close relationship with Him.
I mention the events of Revelation, which Jesus told John to write down, it wasnt that John himself was predicting the future but just what Jesus revealed to John past, present AND future. It was a vision. Much of what is revealed in thst book is happening outside of our earthly realm i.e whats going on in the heavenly realm. The book was also revealed to John at the time he was on earth and specific to the churches at that time...there were seven churches that Jesus had a special message for. Just like Paul was writing to all these different churches that are not here today, but those letters are relevant to all believers for all time. I mean I do not live in Galatia or Corinth, Paul never wrote a letter to the church members in Auckland, New zealand where I live!
Enoch was mentioned in the Bible as someone who walked with God. He was the ancestor of Noah. It says he was taken by God in Genesis 5:21-24. Some people interpret this to mean he was whisked away to heaven without dying.I dont know, but he he seemed to have a close relationship with Him.
I mention the events of Revelation, which Jesus told John to write down, it wasnt that John himself was predicting the future but just what Jesus revealed to John past, present AND future. It was a vision. Much of what is revealed in thst book is happening outside of our earthly realm i.e whats going on in the heavenly realm. The book was also revealed to John at the time he was on earth and specific to the churches at that time...there were seven churches that Jesus had a special message for. Just like Paul was writing to all these different churches that are not here today, but those letters are relevant to all believers for all time. I mean I do not live in Galatia or Corinth, Paul never wrote a letter to the church members in Auckland, New zealand where I live!
You limit the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Was it a vision or did John get caught up in the Spirit and was no longer get here in this earth?
The 7 Churches Represents All the Churches in this World. It is not 7 churches who once was and are no more.
What has been Recorded in the Book of Revelation WILL ALL come to pass. Down to the last letter.
Blessings
FCJ
When God shows you a vision he is showing you something in the spirit that has yet to manifest. We often cannot see this in the natural earthly realm because we are timebound. But it has happened already in the spirit realm and will happen and is even happening right now we just arent aware of it because in the flesh we are timebound. If that makes sense.
Calm down and what are you talking about.
Please start using the REPLY OR QUOTE feature.
Blessings
You wrote I limit the book of revelation of Jesus christ. I do no such thing. Where do you even get that from?
I also didnt say anything about the churches that were once and no more. If you go to those places of the churches that Jesus had John wrote the message to are those people still there? Are the corinthians and Galatians still reading those letters that Paul wrote?
Yet we still read them today because we can learn from them. Even if we are not ourselves corinthians, galatians, sardinians laodeicians etc.
Why do you think nothing in revelation has come to pass. A lot has. Of course it will all come to pass. I never said it would not either.
Please just relax and not try and over analyse what I write and make out that I'm contradicting what the Bible says. I am not.
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