Spiritual Death

[MatthewG]

What happened to Adam and Eve in the Garden?

God gave a commandment to Adam and Eve to - not eat from the three of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

A simple commandment - broken once temptation had came about unto Eve, which Adam had harkened to listening to her voice and partook of the eating of the fruit that was gotten from the good and evil.

What happened? - They died. Spiritually - they went onward and they had children, and all of the people of old were all dead spiritually - all of them died and went to the covered place called she'ol. All of creation went to this place.

They were still living psychically and - according to this that sin brings forth dead - all of us are corrupt since the first sin committed through not listening towards God. The longer we go living in this life - the more corrupt our mind, will, and our emotions become.

Now after this happening -> Jesus Christ came, and we are renewed by being given the spirit - now at first our mind is still corrupt, will, and our emotions are corrupt. However if you continue in your progress of following and reading and using the bible as your support and encouragement to keep in the faith, you become renewed, you mind, your will, your emotions are transformed and shaped and molded by God through faith and having belief and trusting the Lord Jesus Christ.

Keep growing in your knowledge, keep learning about the Lord Jesus Christ - Ask God for help in your temptations.

Death is a bad thing. Death is a bad result - God did not plan for us to die. Eve was deceived and Adam listened to his wife rather than God - thus both had sinned. And sinned carried onward through us even now today.

Spiritual Death is reconciled by sending the Lord Jesus Christ, you can become spiritually born again through faith.

Anyone have any comments or thoughts about this?

 

[Musicmaster]

Hmm. Let's see what the text actually says:

Genesis 2:15-17

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Just letting scripture speak for itself in the face of what appears to be an alteration of the text. There is no indication the woman even existed yet when that commandment was given to "the man," and therefore she was not yet present on this earth when the commandment was given.

Who was it the Lord initially sought and spoke to when asking about having eaten of that fruit?

Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?

The modern, feminized rendition says that the Lord called to them both, when in fact He called only to the man at the first, only addressing Eve after Adam had cowardly pointed the finger of blame at her for what he specifically was commanded to not do.

These things are important to believers who see the Bible as authoritative. Generally speaking, the subjectivists out there try to make it sound radically different from what it actually says. This helps them to rewrite the Bible into saying whatever they so desire. Even though this may sound nit-picky, these little things, collectively, leave very large footprints of vast implications and importance in the soils of truth. Trivializing even these little things can lead to very large and glaring error.

MM

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Musicmaster,

Thank you for sharing the text with us for you have shown a more clearer contextual picture for readers to read. It helps readers even see what is being explained in the original post.

 

[Garee]

Hmm. Let's see what the text actually says:

Genesis 2:15-17

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Just letting scripture speak for itself in the face of what appears to be an alteration of the text. There is no indication the woman even existed yet when that commandment was given to "the man," and therefore she was not yet present on this earth when the commandment was given.

Who was it the Lord initially sought and spoke to when asking about having eaten of that fruit?

Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?

The modern, feminized rendition says that the Lord called to them both, when in fact He called only to the man at the first, only addressing Eve after Adam had cowardly pointed the finger of blame at her for what he specifically was commanded to not do.

These things are important to believers who see the Bible as authoritative. Generally speaking, the subjectivists out there try to make it sound radically different from what it actually says. This helps them to rewrite the Bible into saying whatever they so desire. Even though this may sound nit-picky, these little things, collectively, leave very large footprints of vast implications and importance in the soils of truth. Trivializing even these little things can lead to very large and glaring error.

MM

I would offer.. .

Mankind (man and woman) was created in the image of God (father and Son) as one creation unlike the other beast of the field .God created them male and female as separate creations. The image or likeness of two as if one, The father and Son. Man and woman .Moses and Aaron .One to represent God not seen the father .The other one to perform the unseen will of faith as demonstration to mankind.

Bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh the whole creature not in part .Not formed from the bones but rather formed from the same clay, same field of clay, same lump in the twinkling of the eye,

Genesis 3;27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; (mankind) male and female created he them.

Mankind both man a woman created in the image of an invisible God. Woman as helpmeet one that comes along side. Together forming the government of peace.

Man is that which the Lord initially sought and spoke to when asking about having eaten of that fruit. Man responsibility was to convey it to his wife .Just as Moses with Aaron.

The pattern used in parables throughout the bible of prophets declareing the will of our unseen God as a kngdom of priest .Sent us out male and female two by two

Note... ( Moses black )
Note.. (Aaron green )
Not... (God red)

Exodus 4:15-16 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth,(Aaron ) and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (Moses ) shalt be to him instead of God.

Man the spokes person.he was there with Eve .He failed to warn .Jesus did not fail His bride the church .

 

[Musicmaster]

Garee, Jesus didn't spend a whole lot of words talking about the unseen. He spoke to the people who wanted to hear Him in words and concepts they could grasp. The only time He spoke in veiled and hidden meanings was when the religious leaders were around to try and trip Him up.

So, I hope you don't mind that I'm not so impressed with all the cryptic gymnastics of words about man and woman, the Father who is unseen and the Son who is seen, on and on it can all go. What amazes me, Garee, is that the Lord could love someone like me. The intricacies of all the myriads of spiritual sounding jargon will never take from me the desire to remain on the level of loving Jesus simply, and in simplicity, and in loving others simply, and loving them in simplicity.

Yes, there is great depth of inexpressible things that go through my mind constantly. I at times must bring them all into subjection to the approaching Lord and God of all creation that His voice may be heard by my inner man in the storm of so much that He has given to me.

What, then, Garee, can you say that will bring forth simple joy for the child within us to grasp and hold dear? Jesus pointed at the little children, and said that except we become as they, we cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Oh how children teach us so much about life in Christ, and what needs to change within us.

MM

 

[MatthewG]

Hello musicmaster,

You are right about the love of God. It is amazing how much God loved not just those who believe, but the whole world that he sent his only Son to die for the (every single human being). Gods love is paramount. It’s very important, God loved everyone and send them valuable enough that Jesus Christ even made the choice to die for them.

Yeshua could have said no father, I will not die for them! However that was not the choice made. He loved all of them, and passed away always having his Father in mind, then resurrected again by Him.

All of those who reject and had him murdered, they could have made a change afterward realizing their wrong, but just like Adam in deciding to listen to his wife rather than God all have a decision; to make.

It is also amazing and interesting that God created us to live forever, and so shall it be for all people believer - non believer who is resurrected. Because the intention was for none to perish, and Gods desire is for all to come the knowledge of the truth.

With all this being said, no I don’t believe everyone is going to be saved to the kingdom of God if they don’t turn towards God; some will be outside the kingdom. (Revelation 22)

Maybe people who made a choice to not go to God can come to him after this life, at least it is part of my hope in God and that nothing shall be impossible for him. We as men are incapable compared to Him and His son Jesus Christ.

Us as humans would have never made the choice to die for all man kind, hell no we would say and we would have lashed out at those men who put us to death.

Thank you for your post and comment.

It would be cool if believers who dwell with God can go help others on the outside: it would just very interesting, cause still would like to do some type of work for God in sharing so the truth can be known even to them outside the kingdom.

Hmm it is all and interesting ponderance.

 

[MatthewG]

This is an interesting scripture.

It says God is the savior of all people,

especially those who believe -> for believers become spiritually reborn, and have added benefits by their choice of following God and Jesus Christ.

It still doesn’t stop God for being the savior of those who have not yet to believe, or still had rejected him. (They just make the choice to not believe or flat out reject (Jesus Christ our Lord and the Love God had shown) but maybe one day they will come the knowledge of the truth and allow him be able to work in their lives.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4

So believe this even further demonstrates the Love God had for all mankind, every single human.

Thank you again for your comment, Musicmaster.

 

[Garee]

Garee, Jesus didn't spend a whole lot of words talking about the unseen. He spoke to the people who wanted to hear Him in words and concepts they could grasp. The only time He spoke in veiled and hidden meanings was when the religious leaders were around to try and trip Him up.

So, I hope you don't mind that I'm not so impressed with all the cryptic gymnastics of words about man and woman, the Father who is unseen and the Son who is seen, on and on it can all go. What amazes me, Garee, is that the Lord could love someone like me. The intricacies of all the myriads of spiritual sounding jargon will never take from me the desire to remain on the level of loving Jesus simply, and in simplicity, and in loving others simply, and loving them in simplicity.

Yes, there is great depth of inexpressible things that go through my mind constantly. I at times must bring them all into subjection to the approaching Lord and God of all creation that His voice may be heard by my inner man in the storm of so much that He has given to me.

What, then, Garee, can you say that will bring forth simple joy for the child within us to grasp and hold dear? Jesus pointed at the little children, and said that except we become as they, we cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Oh how children teach us so much about life in Christ, and what needs to change within us.

MM

I thanks.Not my goal to destoy the simp-licity of the gospel believe God this shows us he has given us the power so we can trust our unsen Holy God. Emanauel

Yes little children with no understanding (Faith) are used in one in a series of parables (Luke 9) that Christ was using to teach the apostles how to walk by faith the unseen eternal understanding mixing it with the temporal seen to reveal the unseen gospel hid from the faithless. .Faith the key that unlock the mysteries .

He freely gives us his understanding of faith so that like children we can follow after the living word that works in us. A lfetime of learning

On one occasion the apostles in a state of confusion,wonderment when again and again Christ hid the childlike understanding . They decided Jesus must of went off the deep end (chapter 14) and took up a vote who would be the new Alpha male the big dog .In the end of the matter (Luke 9:55) he rebuked them and revealed they knew not what manner of spirit they were of. Surely not a childlike hungry for unseen knowledge . Parables a great way to teach us how to walk by faith the unseen .

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Neither do they understand.no faith, not little none.

Can you think of another way to teach mankind how to walk by faith the unseen other than using the temporal things seen to reveal the unseen eternal ?

How can we rightly divide the parables which wothout Christ spoke not other than 2 Corithians 4:18 . what do we do with that interpreting tool.

2 Corithians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Musicmaster]

Well, Garee, I did ask for simplicity and edification, and got more of that "unseen" stuff instead.

May I ask why you are so hung up on that? I'm just trying to understand your unwillingness to uplift and edify in simplicity. It matters not at all in this conversation that the words and depths of Christ are hidden from the unsaved. Yes. We all get that. We understand all that, but there's so much more to our sharing together the things of Christ without hammering and hammering on the "unseen."

You know what, Garee, Christ is not invisible and unseen to me. He is God, and He is therefore everywhere at once. I experience Him every day. The scriptures say that a sparrow doesn't even hop on the ground that the Lord does not take notice...contrary to some translations.

For all others in this forum, I want to encourage you in simplicity and openness that the Lord sees and understands all our sufferings, our joys, our sacrifices, and every thought. All the turmoil around us in this world, be at peace in the knowledge that our Father sees every nuance and seemingly inconsequential event in our lives, and yes, He even sees when we hop like the sparrows...(smile)

Isn't the Lord so wonderful? I weep almost daily for how much the Lord loves us and gave Himself for us, letting the people pierce His only begotten Son, nailing Him to that tree. That love is something I can't fully comprehend. I worship the Lord, and offer my all.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Sorry, MG, but we simply disagree about Revelation 22. That is yet to come, and the truthfulness of that will become quite apparent to you when the time comes. I was hoping that your inability to answer some questions of mine about your preterist beliefs would cause you to doubt your take on Revelation, but it was a wasted effort.

But, hey, it really doesn't matter what you or I believe about what God is going to do with this earth and all that is in it? He is Sovereign, He is glorious and powerful, and all will go as He planned from before the beginning of this world. I gladly give myself over to His Sovereign will.

MM

 

[crossnote]

Can you think of another way to teach mankind how to walk by faith the unseen other than using the temporal things seen to reveal the unseen eternal ?

Nope,...

Galatians 3:1 (KJV) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

It took 'the seen' to make the connection.

 

[MatthewG]

Okay

 

[MatthewG]

Galatians where fooled by people who were trying to make them come back to serving the law wasn’t it crossnote? There were other things mentioned instead of this one verse.

 

[MatthewG]

Garee we are also looking for the unseen future with God. Which for believers is to go and be with God, and nonbelievers outside the heavenly Jerusalem. People can believe this or not it is up to them, they are legally obligated to have their own thought, opinions and ideas when it comes to believing this not.


As for believing in Jesus check this out

John 20 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

 

[crossnote]

Galatians where fooled by people who were trying to make them come back to serving the law wasn’t it crossnote? There were other things mentioned instead of this one verse.

Sure, it's emphasis was on the danger of adding to the Gospel. But that wasn't my point in choosing that verse.

 

[Garee]

Nope,...

Galatians 3:1 (KJV) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

It took 'the seen' to make the connection.

I would agree and call it promised denmonstration.

Something I have been looking at for a while. .

It took that seen the temporal (an outward demonstration) to show the witness of God the Father and Son .They two working as one. Together supplying the government of peace which does pass our understanding giving us "His witness" the understanding. .

From my experiences dividing the witness of men from that of God is not the most talked about doctrine but I belive it can be valuable when looking at various parables. The two kinds of witnessee I believe as to the differences can in rich the understanding not take away the literal but give us the signified. Possibly to encourage us

The promised demonstration spoken of in Isaiah 53 spoken of the Lamb of God who was slain from the foundation (past tense) .as the foundation of the pursuit of a eternal bride as a new creature.

Not to remove the simplicity of the gospel but as a tool that supplies living daily hope. The mysteries of God are revealed in various parables .Again to teach us how to walk by faith . . the understanding of another (The Spirit of Christ the anointing teacher of God ).

Isaiah 53 informs us of that demonstration of two working . The father and the Son .The father striking the Son with the letter of the law “death and its suffering of this life. And in perfect submission the Son did cry out for power from the father so that they as one could finish the work of demonstrating . One God.

A distinction must be made between the “witness of God” the unseen witness of faith that works in the creatures and the “witness of man” walking by sight after the temporal things of this creation ,

The three day three night demonstration seems to be demonstrated in three parts.

It began as the witness of God in the garden of Gethsemane .It was there the father poured out the wrath of mankind on his Son described as “unto death” .Not dead never to rise again .Three times that demonstration was shown. Again the witness of two spoken of in Isaiah 53.

The Son in his suffering looked for support in prayer with the disciples .It was refused .The father put the disciples to sleep "three times" to show the work was exclusively of God . Three denotes the end of the matter in various parables

Matthew 26:37-39 King James Version (KJV) And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Then I believe part two of the three days three nights demonstration to the whole world of suffering "unto death" Jesus was empowered to do the will of the father, that part of the demonstration ended they were awakened and they moved on to part two. The cross as the witness of man (what the eyes see the temporal ).

There it is demonstrated that sinners crucified Christ. Taking away the glory of our unseen God .Again the work of salvation as "two working". The work of salvation is not attributed to the hands of mankind. . the Satan inspired crowd. Part three of the three days and nights suffering that work of faith or labor of love was in the tomb hidden from mankind .When that was finished the father rolled back the stone Jesus walked out by faith.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

In that way we do not recive the testimony of man the faithless witness .

 

[Garee]

Well, Garee, I did ask for simplicity and edification, and got more of that "unseen" stuff instead.

With all due honor. Sorry, from my own experience the unseen stuff (faith) caused many difficulties as a new beliver . We receive the end of our new born again faith from the beginning (salvation) Just as the Old Testament saints. But the mystery of faith is not understood when we have received the end . Its is a learning process he teaches us to walk by faith or understand God not seen through parables . .

The query in Luke . When he does come on the last day under the Sun will he find Christ’s faith working in the hearts of mankind as it is written or will experience be the new gospel power .Just Zoom in on Zoom. And I am not taking away the power of preaching but the methodology. .Again ultimately we walk by the power of the unseen.

I would think new believers could use the use of the words "unseen" or etenal not seen when discussing matters of faith. Its not as if God could not send a famine even today for hearing his words and providing the power for mankind to believe our unseen God who is not a man as us.

May I ask why you are so hung up on that? I'm just trying to understand your unwillingness to uplift and edify in simplicity. It matters not at all in this conversation that the words and depths of Christ are hidden from the unsaved. Yes. We all get that. We understand all that, but there's so much more to our sharing together the things of Christ without hammering and hammering on the "unseen."

You know what, Garee, Christ is not invisible and unseen to me. He is God, and He is therefore everywhere at once. I experience Him every day. The scriptures say that a sparrow doesn't even hop on the ground that the Lord does not take notice...contrary to some translations.

Amen. .I would agree without his unseen presence working in us we would remain without faith. . . not little. Litle fiaith which he does attribute to those he works in to both will and empower them opening the eyes of one’s new heart to continue to see the things not seen .They hid in parables I believe teach us how to seek understanding hid from the faithless. In that way of little faith. . . we must decrease as he gives us his power to increase .

 

[Musicmaster]

The system of thought that the word of God deals mostly in the "unseen" rather than being real to a world of people who are real, and under the command and control of God, who relates to us in the real and the "seen," it's without apology that I question you both on all this.

That's why prophecy of things yet to come, when retained in the realm of the real apart from those elements of images and things in Heaven to which we cannot relate, what He spoke about in this realm is relatable to people who have no experiential correlation to those things in the Heavenly realm.

Attempts at trying to steal from other believers the "blessed hope" Paul addressed to the Galatians, by etherealizing it out into some "unseen" past...no! God is not so coy and lascivious. He has always dealt straightforward with mankind, offering REAL hope rather than just a history lesson where such a belief cannot answer the questions put to it.

Now, if you fellas, MG and Garee, can answer the questions put to you, here, where things are "seen," then perhaps we can talk about these things more intelligently. MG has already stated that he doesn't know. So, what about you, Garee?

If Revelation, in speaking of the Millennial Kingdom, where the lion lays down with the lamb, and a child can place their hand into a venomous snake pit and not be bitten or die, where has that ever materialized in the past? Shrugging that off as allegorical, no! That's too easy. Please address this with intelligent insight(s) that we can all grasp and comprehend. Please speak clearly and concisely. Please explain why we should believe it all has already transpired, and that we are allegedly living in that thousand years time right now.

Please write it all out as if you were speaking to a class of intelligent adults who have read scripture, and who are filled with Holy Spirit. Leave the unseen where it is, and speak of the seen, which are the words of scripture and the world around us where the lion kingdom is not laying down with lambs, and them eating grass as what was once their prey, and the venom of snakes is no longer venomous to humans and animals. Where is that reality in concrete terms as they are spoken in scripture, from a real man, speaking to real people on this earth where we deal in the "seen."

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Oh, and Garee, please keep in mind that I understand that there is more "unseen> than what is "seen". Granted. Even scientists have some to realize that there is more mass in the universe that is "unseen" than what we can see visibly.

However, the Lord opening our eyes to the "unseen" does not take away from what the Lord prophesied that is clearly in the world of the "seen."

So, please, let's dispense with the "unseen" as a way of explaining away those things that clearly contradict your premises. Please answer the questions above.

MM

 

[Garee]

Now, if you fellas, MG and Garee, can answer the questions put to you, here, where things are "seen," then perhaps we can talk about these things more intelligently. MG has already stated that he doesn't know. So, what about you, Garee?

If Revelation, in speaking of the Millennial Kingdom, where the lion lays down with the lamb, and a child can place their hand into a venomous snake pit and not be bitten or die, where has that ever materialized in the past? Shrugging that off as allegorical, no! That's too easy. Please address this with intelligent insight(s) that we can all grasp and comprehend. Please speak clearly and concisely. Please explain why we should believe it all has already transpired, and that we are allegedly living in that thousand years time right now.

Please write it all out as if you were speaking to a class of intelligent adults who have read scripture, and who are filled with Holy Spirit. Leave the unseen where it is, and speak of the seen, which are the words of scripture and the world around us where the lion kingdom is not laying down with lambs, and them eating grass as what was once their prey, and the venom of snakes is no longer venomous to humans and animals. Where is that reality in concrete terms as they are spoken in scripture, from a real man, speaking to real people on this earth where we deal in the "seen."

Thanks for the reply and sorry with the use of the words not seen, or unseen .Most likely my own insecurity as a personal reminder to walk by faith

I believe we are informed from the opening interpretation instruction that not only was the whole book (Revelation) inspired but also God gives the signified understanding hid in parables called hidden manna in chapter 2. . The lion sitting down with a child in that parable. . it represents the glory of God as the light for the first three day before death by the letter of the law. Venom of snakes speaks of false prophecy. . the Pharisees a brood of vipers .

I don't think it is not even saying there will be animals as other breast of the field in the new order. Simply representing before death came when the glory departed .

I enjoy pets but the gospel does not reveal if other beast of the field not subject to salvation will be there. Just like the father of lies is not subject to the gospel .All dogs could go to heaven but again it has nothing to with the gospel the new creation.