When I first became a christian, I was really confused with church because some christians just acted like worldly people no different.
But then found some others were very religious and devout as well, but after getting to know them bit more it was only on the surface. Like I was really shocked that people, especially ministers, would go have affairs and go against the Word of God.
I remember a few churches in which people told me about former ministers that did this, according to the testimony of some pastors wives. It made me question is it right to attend church if cant even trust the ministers not to run off with the secretaries etc.
Are churches these days hiding grounds for children of disobedience? When a pastor or anyone in a leadership role does this, the whole congregation is affected by their hypocrisy. Just wondering how people deal with this...leave that church, or stay and 'excommunicate' or 'shun' these tares...? Form another church?[/QUOTE
The tares and the wheat.
To what shall we liken the kingdom of God?
"It is like a good man that sowed good seed in his field....."
The field is the world and the "seed is the Word of God"
"But while men slept his enemy came and sowed tares" and went on his way.
those who sow tares always go on their way.
In genesis we read of two seeds. The seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent.
"But when the blade sprung up and bought forth fruit then appeared the tares also"
..............
God sends the rain on the just and the unjust,so that even the tares rejoice when it rains.
"let them both grow together until the harvest.........."
note that the tares are gathered together in bundles FIRST. and tied together in bundles.
All these 'gatherings' of one sort or another that is not of GOD are simply the tares being tied together in bundles first ready for the fire.
then comes the harvest of the wheat that is gathered into the barn.
Mathew 13
Tares among the wheat
- Thread starter Lanolin
- Start date
That's definitely a good exercise. Are there particular scriptures you have in mind relating to the two distinct events that you could bring in here for us?
Not sure to what you are refering.
If you mean the difference between the two 'tribulations' then "In this world ye will have tribulation " John 16:23
Great tribulation primarily of Mathew 24:21 "........since was not from the beginning of this world to this time ,no nor ever shall be"
The tribulation then of John 16 is clearly not of the same order as Mathew 24.
For all who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
This then applies to all men of faith even from Abel.
The great tribulation that has never been a time like it past present or future is of another order completely .That if God did not shorten the days .. Mathew 24:22 "........ except those days be shortened no flesh will be saved........."
Thus we have the 'normal' tribulation all men of God will have in this world and always have had.
and the "great tribulation " spoken of like no other .
and while I believe there is one place where the word 'tribulation' is used in the context of the great tribulation it is an exception that proves the rule.
Hence it will reduced much confusion in many a mind if the two are clearly diiferentiated and used in thier right place when speaking of these matters.
If on the other hand you are speaking about the time of the antichrist etc.
That I think is for another time and another post . But I rarely major on the antichrist .
For why focus thatr much upon that which is not 'good'?
But rather the focus should be on the Bride and the coming of the Lord to gather her unto himself .
In THAT regard a good or clearer understandign of the nature ,character and the disposition of the Bride will clarify an awful lot about the nature and time of what is called the rapture or what I think more accurately should be called the "translation" of the Bride of Christ .
That translation will be as like unto Enochs and when the Bride will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air .
in Christ
Gerald
That is the point here...some cannot discern the difference from the simple reading of scripture. It has to be a revelation, I guess.
Personally the word 'revelation' has to much of an ego boosting attached to it.Pauls "the eyes of your understanding being opened" in eph has a more down to earth aproach to it.
In christ
Gerald
If one's ego has to be massaged by using the word, "revelation", I pity that person. It is obvious that some people cannot discern the word as it teaches us regarding everyday tribulation that we are promised in this life as believers, and the never-before-seen Tribulation that will come upon the entire globe that Jesus promises will come in the last days. "Revelation" is appropriate. In Jesus' name, may the scales fall off many eyes.
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Sad but very true and now I would say - we should be praying for them and lifting them up. Perhaps praying Pauls prayers for wisdom and understanding would be best.
God Bless
Jim
Me loving brother Gerald,
You said " revelation' has to much of an ego boosting attached to it. Pauls eyes of your understanding being opened" in eph has a more down to earth aproach"
Now then what is it other then Revelation truth of His written word and Love for us that our eyes would be opened to ?
God Bless My Friend
Jim
I was meaning that the word revelation has connotations with John's. Not directly but by associa
Not disputed but the number of people who have 'revelations' by the dozen and seem to live by them or try to.Me loving brother Gerald,
You said " revelation' has to much of an ego boosting attached to it. Pauls eyes of your understanding being opened" in eph has a more down to earth aproach"
Now then what is it other then Revelation truth of His written word and Love for us that our eyes would be opened to ?
God Bless My Friend
Jim
Peter saw many things that others did not but still he said "we have a better prophecy meaning the Word of God .For it is not written that man shall not live by bread alone but by every revelation that a man has,but by every word that proceeded (present, continuous ) from the mouth of God.
In Christian
Gerald
Well, sir, that is your personal reaction to a very appropriate use of the word. You don't have to use it, but I do use it, because I am aware that every believer in the world has had some revelation of truth, of how wretched they are outside of Christ, and of the love of God and of the Saviour, Jesus Christ and who He is and what He has done for them. It is by revelations administered by the power of the Holy Spirit that we can receive any truth at all! Concerning how this thread's topic has proceeded, the argument concerning the coming tribulation being a fairy tale would be quelled if certain folk would bow to Holy Spirit's revelation rather than asserting their fleshly thinking into the mix which brings them to denial of truth. Our natural thinking can be quite a formidable foe toward God.
As to this thread's actual topic, this whole idea of the flesh being at enmity with God and causing people to have strong and strident views which oppose God's word, to the point of denying even the Tribulation is a sign of tares among the wheat.
Gerald I was just messing with you in fun. I understand what you are saying and was taking advantage of playing on words. I was speaking of revelation as to a deeper understanding of His written word.
Have a blessed day
Jim
In matthew 24 jesus was talking to his disciples.
He was quite specific about them fleeing Judea.
I dont know that that applies to us living outside of judea, where, are we going to flee? He says to the mountains, and then talks about flight...although that just means we have to go somewhere.
Sometimes i think Jesus is saying this applies to all of us, at the end meaning the end of our lives when Jesus assuredly comes for us. 'Great tribulation' is not a seperate entitiy and is uncaptialised in the bible. I dont think he was talking about two different things, like a little tribulation and then a bigger one....all other references to tribulation never say oh its a great one. They just talk about in this world we have tribulation. And we do. Eg. Loads of genocides, massacres, disasters, cruel regimes etc. but then i suppose right at the end of everything, not just our own little worlds, the entire earth, like in noahs day, was flooded. So theres that. But then some people say oh, noahs flood didnt really flood the entire earth.
We all going to be hated for his names sake...this generation shall not pass...what generation is he referring to, the jewish generation? The people living at the time of when he was speaking? What is the abomination of desolation and was it set up?
I hear different things, maybe about four different interpretations, and all of them are plausible.
The wheat and the tares though..i know one thing...God will separate those. As long as we know we are his wheat its ok, i shouldnt worry about the tares.
He was quite specific about them fleeing Judea.
I dont know that that applies to us living outside of judea, where, are we going to flee? He says to the mountains, and then talks about flight...although that just means we have to go somewhere.
Sometimes i think Jesus is saying this applies to all of us, at the end meaning the end of our lives when Jesus assuredly comes for us. 'Great tribulation' is not a seperate entitiy and is uncaptialised in the bible. I dont think he was talking about two different things, like a little tribulation and then a bigger one....all other references to tribulation never say oh its a great one. They just talk about in this world we have tribulation. And we do. Eg. Loads of genocides, massacres, disasters, cruel regimes etc. but then i suppose right at the end of everything, not just our own little worlds, the entire earth, like in noahs day, was flooded. So theres that. But then some people say oh, noahs flood didnt really flood the entire earth.
We all going to be hated for his names sake...this generation shall not pass...what generation is he referring to, the jewish generation? The people living at the time of when he was speaking? What is the abomination of desolation and was it set up?
I hear different things, maybe about four different interpretations, and all of them are plausible.
The wheat and the tares though..i know one thing...God will separate those. As long as we know we are his wheat its ok, i shouldnt worry about the tares.
Glomung
Account Closed
The abomination of desolation will be a statue of the anti-Christ that will be put in the sanctuary of the New Temple in Jerusalem. The New Temple hasn't been built yet, though it is planned.
The generation he was speaking of was after the rebirth of Israel (1948ish), otherwise his comment would be wrong.
People have "tribulations" (small t) all the time. "The Tribulation" is a 7 year period where there will be disasters and conflict the likes of which the world has never seen.
Should be quite the party, if you survive it.
The generation he was speaking of was after the rebirth of Israel (1948ish), otherwise his comment would be wrong.
People have "tribulations" (small t) all the time. "The Tribulation" is a 7 year period where there will be disasters and conflict the likes of which the world has never seen.
Should be quite the party, if you survive it.
The abomination of desolation will be a statue of the anti-Christ that will be put in the sanctuary of the New Temple in Jerusalem. The New Temple hasn't been built yet, though it is planned.
The generation he was speaking of was after the rebirth of Israel (1948ish), otherwise his comment would be wrong.
People have "tribulations" (small t) all the time. "The Tribulation" is a 7 year period where there will be disasters and conflict the likes of which the world has never seen.
Should be quite the party, if you survive it.
Christians of this generation won't be there to see it.
Glomung
Account Closed
That is assuming you take the notion of a pre-Trib rapture seriously.
Not the notion, but the teaching. Of course I take the word seriously.
Then you will have to reconcile the words of Jesus in Mathew 24:21 with what you have said here.
if you narrow it all down to that Jesus was only talking to His disciples (at the time) why then do you count other words he spoke to them applicable to you?
Are you not a disciple? Then he was speaking to you .
and he clearly states that the great tribulation will be like no other time on earth before now or ever will be .
That then is not your usual run of the mill "tribulation" of "in this world ye will have tribulation"
Why will those times be so great?
Because the bride of Christ has gone and the restraining power of the Holy Spirit has gone as well. and the antichrist will have his day and time. Those christians who were not ready (the 5 foolish virgins) will be persecuted to death and the judgements of God will be poured out after a short time of 'peace' The Jews will be first deceived and will make a "covenant of death" with the antichrist . and all hell will break loose as it were.
and as the Lord said if God did not shorten the days (number) then no one would be saved.
In Prophecy there is more often than not, a short part fulfillment and a final full fillment .
We need to keep that in mind.
I am not aware the disciples fled save at the seige of Jerusalem which many take as the fullfilment but it was n ot only the shadow of what is to come when the all or nearly all the nations of the world will come against Jerusalem at the behest of the antichrist .
in Christ
gerald
Yes i understand all that...but, where are we going to flee when it happens.
I suppose like noahs ark, there will be somewhere to go? The angels will just take us? All the dead are going to rise...
This generation means the jews? Or does it include gentiles. See thats confusing. If Jesus was talking to the disciples, who were all jewish..and represnting the tribes of israel, and he was sayingto flee judea...then how does that apply to us? And what about the destruction of the temple in Jerusualem..wasnt Jesus warning them specifically about that?
As far as I know he was pointing to the temple when he was saying these words cos the disciples asked him to show them....and we know there isnt any temple anymore. Theres only the remnants of where it once stood..,there is no trace of the holy of holies, theres no golden candlesticks, no shewbread, no ark of the covenant. Not even any place to offer sacrfices. And jesus didnt say it was going to be rebuilt after it was destroyed.
I suppose like noahs ark, there will be somewhere to go? The angels will just take us? All the dead are going to rise...
This generation means the jews? Or does it include gentiles. See thats confusing. If Jesus was talking to the disciples, who were all jewish..and represnting the tribes of israel, and he was sayingto flee judea...then how does that apply to us? And what about the destruction of the temple in Jerusualem..wasnt Jesus warning them specifically about that?
As far as I know he was pointing to the temple when he was saying these words cos the disciples asked him to show them....and we know there isnt any temple anymore. Theres only the remnants of where it once stood..,there is no trace of the holy of holies, theres no golden candlesticks, no shewbread, no ark of the covenant. Not even any place to offer sacrfices. And jesus didnt say it was going to be rebuilt after it was destroyed.
Glomung
Account Closed
Don't be in Israel during the reign of the anti-Christ. If you are there, you are in trouble.
If the pre-Trib rapture happens then you won't be here. If it doesn't, see my comment above.
Both Jews and Gentiles, applies to everyone. The Temple was destroyed, and at some point will be rebuilt. It's been planned for decades. All the materials are ready.