The Abortion Debate.

I think that a large part of the problem with the Church today is that we have allowed TRUTH to become subjective and we only uphold the biblical truth that we like or want to see. God's Word is just that, it is His final word on truth, justice, mercy, love, compassion and how those aspects of His character are to be lived out by His children who have been saved through faith in His son Jesus Christ.

Mary: It is clear that your heart is in the right place, and that you are likely a new Christian. You love you fiance, and that is a good thing. You respect him, and that is a good thing. He treats people well, and that, of course, is a good thing.

But, to suggest that you believe that Jesus Christ is "the way" to heaven but in the same breath suggest that an Atheist is a "good person" that will be with you in heaven some day is to be detached from the truth that you say has saved you.

I'm not questioning that your finance is a "good person" relative to many other people who are not as good to others as he is. There will almost always be other people we can compare ourselves against and call ourselves "good", just as there will always be other people we could compare ourselves against and recognize our significant shortcomings.

But, that is irrelevant. The only standard that is relevant is a comparison of our life against that of Jesus Christ, the only perfect person to ever walk the earth. And, if the standard is perfection, we ALL fall far short of that, no matter how good we or others may think we are.

And, if we fall short of that standard of perfection, we CANNOT enter into the perfect place called Heaven to spend eternity with the Father without the covering of Christ's righteousness. Therefore, unless your fiance is perfect, he will NOT enter heaven until and unless he accepts Jesus as his Savior and commits his life to Him. It is really that simple. That's not my opinion. That's God's word, infallible truth from the creator of truth itself.

And, in the interest of getting somewhat back on topic, as Christians, we have a RESPONSIBILITY to shine God's truth into every corner of existence, and part of that truth is that ALL LIFE is precious and sacred, including plant and animal life. But, here is the difference. Human beings are created in God's image. We are the only living thing that is. We are the only living thing that has a soul, as best I can tell from scripture.

And, the WORLD we live in was created FOR us, plants, animals, mountains, seas, etc. The Bible says that we are to have dominion over it. That is not my interpretation, it is simply God's Word.

Plants were created for us, to provide a way to convert carbon dioxide back into oxygen for us to breath, to provide us with shade from the sun, to provide us with wood for building and for fire for heat, to provide us with food to eat. Animals were created for us, for companionship, for food, and simply for the enjoyment of watching them do what they do and to marvel at God's creativity and genius.

Yes, we should be good stewards and not waste our resources and there is no need to damage or kill a plant or animal without cause. But, to equate the killing of a plant or even an animal to that of a human baby is to misunderstand the whole of Creation. I don't wish that any plant or animal be killed unnecessarily. It would be counter to God's nature and to who we are as Christians.

But, that in no way elevates plants or animals to equal status with human beings who, according to scripture, are created in the likeness of the very Creator of the Universe. Jesus did not come and die on the cross in order to save trees from eternal damnation. Nor did he suffer that terrible punishment to save Lions, Tigers or Bears from the wages of sin.

He came to save US. That is significant. Human life is the most precious of all, and we trivialize it when we suggest that it is acceptable for any person to kill any other person out of convenience or because they MIGHT have a bad life. There are alot of people out there RIGHT NOW, leading very GOOD lives who are very happy and have much joy. Many of them are handicapped in some way. Some are handicapped in significant ways and yet still live tremendous lives.

Who are we to decide that a life should be terminated because NOT terminating that life might make ours more difficult or complicated or because their life MIGHT be difficult? In the VAST majority of cases women are pregnant because THEY made a choice to have unprotected sex and, more importantly, in most cases chose to have sex outside of marriage.

THEIR unwise choice to have sex which results in an unwanted pregnancy should not give them the right to choose to murder an innocent baby who has no choice in the matter and will likely feel every last moment of excruciating pain while it's life is snuffed out for the sake of convenience.
 
I think that a large part of the problem with the Church today is that we have allowed TRUTH to become subjective and we only uphold the biblical truth that we like or want to see. God's Word is just that, it is His final word on truth, justice, mercy, love, compassion and how those aspects of His character are to be lived out by His children who have been saved through faith in His son Jesus Christ.

Mary: It is clear that your heart is in the right place, and that you are likely a new Christian. You love you fiance, and that is a good thing. You respect him, and that is a good thing. He treats people well, and that, of course, is a good thing.

But, to suggest that you believe that Jesus Christ is "the way" to heaven but in the same breath suggest that an Atheist is a "good person" that will be with you in heaven some day is to be detached from the truth that you say has saved you.

I'm not questioning that your finance is a "good person" relative to many other people who are not as good to others as he is. There will almost always be other people we can compare ourselves against and call ourselves "good", just as there will always be other people we could compare ourselves against and recognize our significant shortcomings.

But, that is irrelevant. The only standard that is relevant is a comparison of our life against that of Jesus Christ, the only perfect person to ever walk the earth. And, if the standard is perfection, we ALL fall far short of that, no matter how good we or others may think we are.

And, if we fall short of that standard of perfection, we CANNOT enter into the perfect place called Heaven to spend eternity with the Father without the covering of Christ's righteousness. Therefore, unless your fiance is perfect, he will NOT enter heaven until and unless he accepts Jesus as his Savior and commits his life to Him. It is really that simple. That's not my opinion. That's God's word, infallible truth from the creator of truth itself.

And, in the interest of getting somewhat back on topic, as Christians, we have a RESPONSIBILITY to shine God's truth into every corner of existence, and part of that truth is that ALL LIFE is precious and sacred, including plant and animal life. But, here is the difference. Human beings are created in God's image. We are the only living thing that is. We are the only living thing that has a soul, as best I can tell from scripture.

And, the WORLD we live in was created FOR us, plants, animals, mountains, seas, etc. The Bible says that we are to have dominion over it. That is not my interpretation, it is simply God's Word.

Plants were created for us, to provide a way to convert carbon dioxide back into oxygen for us to breath, to provide us with shade from the sun, to provide us with wood for building and for fire for heat, to provide us with food to eat. Animals were created for us, for companionship, for food, and simply for the enjoyment of watching them do what they do and to marvel at God's creativity and genius.

Yes, we should be good stewards and not waste our resources and there is no need to damage or kill a plant or animal without cause. But, to equate the killing of a plant or even an animal to that of a human baby is to misunderstand the whole of Creation. I don't wish that any plant or animal be killed unnecessarily. It would be counter to God's nature and to who we are as Christians.

But, that in no way elevates plants or animals to equal status with human beings who, according to scripture, are created in the likeness of the very Creator of the Universe. Jesus did not come and die on the cross in order to save trees from eternal damnation. Nor did he suffer that terrible punishment to save Lions, Tigers or Bears from the wages of sin.

He came to save US. That is significant. Human life is the most precious of all, and we trivialize it when we suggest that it is acceptable for any person to kill any other person out of convenience or because they MIGHT have a bad life. There are alot of people out there RIGHT NOW, leading very GOOD lives who are very happy and have much joy. Many of them are handicapped in some way. Some are handicapped in significant ways and yet still live tremendous lives.

Who are we to decide that a life should be terminated because NOT terminating that life might make ours more difficult or complicated or because their life MIGHT be difficult? In the VAST majority of cases women are pregnant because THEY made a choice to have unprotected sex and, more importantly, in most cases chose to have sex outside of marriage.

THEIR unwise choice to have sex which results in an unwanted pregnancy should not give them the right to choose to murder an innocent baby who has no choice in the matter and will likely feel every last moment of excruciating pain while it's life is snuffed out for the sake of convenience.

You just made me cry. See, that is true I'm a new Christian. And I feel despair when I read that my fiancé won't be saved if he doesn't believe. And that is why in particular that he don't believe in christianity. For him there is no sense to have to believe in a man who never existed (again that's what he believe after searching a long time a proof in the scriptures of the world)

I do agree that killing for our sake is non sense. I wouldn't do it. But I can't judge people who do abortion. The only judge is God. That's why I give them the choice in a way. Do I make sense?
 
Sorry, it just that we can use other words: such as “standing”, understanding, comprehension on what the collection of books is saying or teaching us….

Gripe, it sounds like grapes, as in sour grapes : )

It show that our friend have a God and various vocabulary. :D
 
Sorry, it just that we can use other words: such as “standing”, understanding, comprehension on what the collection of books is saying or teaching us….

Gripe, it sounds like grapes, as in sour grapes : )

I overuse the word "gripe." Nonetheless, it wasn't used facetiously or viciously.
 
@MaryseBlossom: Are you married? If not you are not living in God's will. Also, God warns us not to marry unbelievers:

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

I truly understand getting tangled up in emotions/ feelings and living a long term relationship with an unbeliever. It isn't about God being a tyrant-it is about you missing out on God's blessings for you life because you live in rebellion and disobedience. I get it- I truly believe you are comfortable with this man-but God wants to be your #1 relationship. Until you do that-he is not going to bless you like you want in your circumstances.

I KNOW there is no easy fix, my best advice as a new Christian is to investigate God's process and get a firm understanding of what salvation is. Salvation is the first step in getting to know God. Going to church, reading your Bible, tithing, giving, 'being good', paying indulgences, etc...DOES NOT GET YOU INTO HEAVEN. Period.

Only faith in His Grace-following after Christ opens the door to heaven.

God has a process to get to know Him better: Worship, pray, fast when necessary, read your Bible, meditate on the Word, fellowship with Bible believing Christians, seek good counsel, and repeat. But without accepting the Gift of God-Salvation, all of this is in vain. When we begin to follow Him truly, we begin to serve our fellow man selflessly; loving the unlovable. This is God's will, that we give up our lives to His cause- not our own personal agendas and emotions.

Dig into the Gospel-find the most accurate Bible translated into your native language and devour Matthew, Mark, Luke & John.
 
You just made me cry. See, that is true I'm a new Christian. And I feel despair when I read that my fiancé won't be saved if he doesn't believe. And that is why in particular that he don't believe in christianity. For him there is no sense to have to believe in a man who never existed (again that's what he believe after searching a long time a proof in the scriptures of the world)

I do agree that killing for our sake is non sense. I wouldn't do it. But I can't judge people who do abortion. The only judge is God. That's why I give them the choice in a way. Do I make sense?

It is difficult to come to terms with the fact that there may be people we love who may not be saved, because they choose not to trust Christ as their Savior. But, it is THEIR choice. We can't make it for them. And, God will not make it for them. It is a free choice, but they have to make it.

Your fiance has a choice. Look around him and see the wonder of all that has been created and recognize that there MUST be an all powerful creator, and he needs to get to know Him. Or, he can choose to ignore all of that and continue to live in rebellion.

I'm not questioning his sincerity or that he cares about people or is a relatively "decent" person as compared to others in the world. All of that may be absolutely true. But, if he doesn't accept the gift that God offers Him of salvation and eternal life, he is basically spitting in the face of his Creator and saying, "I don't need you".

I have to agree with Brother Mike on this one. The Bible is very clear that we are not to be unequally yolked with unbelievers, and it is for our own good that He says this. Nothing good ever came from a Christian having a romantic relationship with an unbeliever - it only leads to heartache, confusion, anxiety, and often-times a Christian who walks away from God in order to continue to be with that unbeliever.

Love him. Minister to him. Witness to him. Be compassionate and understanding. But, you cannot be romantically involved with him while he chooses to push God away. Of course, you CAN be involved, but, God cannot bless such a relationship, nor anyone involved in it. He cannot be a just and righteous God while at the same time blessing unrighteousness (anything that falls short of the standard He's established in His word).

You sound like a really nice person, who genuinely cares for people. But, in all honesty, sometimes the best way to care for someone is to simply speak truth and to not let them get away with telling themselves a lie.

Your fiance is convincing himself of a lie because it allows him to continue to live his life as if there is no God.

Those who choose to have abortions are convincing themselves of a lie - that's it not really a person yet, that it doesn't yet hurt them, that there will be no future ramifications from the abortion, that it's not really wrong unless THEY believe it's wrong.

These are all lies that they believe, but they are lies that ultimately will not only result in the death of a precious human life, but also will very likely result in both physical AND emotional problems for them in the future. The statistics are clear on this point. A very high percentage of women who receive abortions end up with serious physical and emotional problems as a result. And, obviously, a baby dies needlessly as well.

Is it "loving" to allow this to happen without exposing the lie, regardless of whether it may cause that person to feel uncomfortable with their decision or that someone disapproves? Shouldn't someone disapprove? Don't you, in your heart, disapprove of the killing of an innocent child? How can you, in good conscience, allow the lie to be perpetuated (one that will cause irreparable damage to AT LEAST two lives) simply because you don't want the mother to feel that you might be judging her actions?

Is it really wrong to JUDGE murder to be wrong, regardless of the reasoning for the act? Self defense or the defense of another life from serious injury or death is the only valid reason for the killing of another human being, and the VAST majority of abortions are not performed for reasons that even SOMEWHAT provide for that reasoning.
 
Is it really wrong to JUDGE murder to be wrong, regardless of the reasoning for the act? Self defense or the defense of another life from serious injury or death is the only valid reason for the killing of another human being, and the VAST majority of abortions are not performed for reasons that even SOMEWHAT provide for that reasoning.

I think I get better where you come from. Thank you for sharing.

As for my relationship with my fiancé, I will see where it goes. The marriage is not plan for many years.

I told him tonight my love for God was bigger. I just try to not scare him and see if he could eventually open his eyes to see what I see.
 
It does make sense. Its hard for me to say that because I believe in Jesus, people that don't follow him should be seen as sinners. I believe in rights of choosing what you want to believe in or not. What rocks your boat you know doesn't rock necessarily the others.

My fiancé is atheist. And I accept who he is. He us a very good person that always helps as much as he can other people in need. And I believe he will go to heaven even though he doesn't believe in Jesus.

Does it makes sense?

Then my dear you are wrong. Ask your self this question............How can anyone go to a place that God created IF they do not believe in the God that created the place.

God created heaven and said in His Bible that only those who believe in His Son Jesus Christ will be allowed into heaven.

Well, there it is! You may not like and you can reject it but you can not change it.

Since you are believer and your fiancé is not, I would advise you to do a lot of thinking about marriage. My experience over the past 40 years is that the relationship will not last.

The argument is that you will convert him to Christ after you are married. Nope.
 
just some good news on my part here: my fiancé told me this morning he wants to come with me to the church on sunday, if he doesn't have to work. (if its not this weekend, it will be another one anyway) Because he want to show me his support. I believe there is hope.
 
just some good news on my part here: my fiancé told me this morning he wants to come with me to the church on sunday, if he doesn't have to work. (if its not this weekend, it will be another one anyway) Because he want to show me his support. I believe there is hope.

MaryseBlossom: Let's hope that you guys together can hear preaching and hymns and prayer that is really Christ-centred and Scripture-based for His glory and for the eternal health and benefit of you both!
 
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