The Assembly and the Bride

[Major]

Hello @geralduk,

No! I do not have to explain anything. Yet, you have raised a point which could have importance. Why ten? Why not twelve, if Israel is being represented. Ten is the number of ordinal perfection, in Scripture, and five the number of grace. Yet, I will consider this and come back to you.

http://www.bibleunderstanding.com/number_in_scripture_bullinger.pdf

(Above is the a link to the book in question, and you can look up the number ten there if you are interested, Gerald, from page 227 onwards).


In Christ Jesus
Chris

I was excited to see that someone else is interested in Bible numbers.
Yes, Five is the number of power and Divine grace.

My understanding og Ten is that is represents "Testimony - Law & Responsibility". I guess that could also be ordinal perfection.

In Matthew 25:1-13 is the parabel og the Tem virgins and it is what gives the legal number necessary for a Jewish wedding, Ten, not Twelve.

 

[Grant Melville]

Brother, maybe what you are experiencing is the same thing Jesus experienced, and that is "he marveled at their unbelief." (Mark 6:6)

Well... I don't feel I could put myself in quite the position that the Lord is regarding the matter - He knows the truth perfectly and completely, and I don't. Perhaps I'm the one whose unbelief is grieving His heart. I'm just sad to see so many disagreements about so much precious truth, among God's people - this is undoubtedly the work of the enemy. There's very little sign of divine adjustment taking place, and I say that with myself in mind primarily.

 

[Grant Melville]

Hi Grant,

The foundation upon which we each stand is Christ Jesus, our Saviour, Lord and Head.
May His Name be glorified, His Name praised, and may we all grow in grace and truth and in the knowledge of Him.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Not at all.
The subject of the Bride of Christ is much neglected as are many other things that one could call the meat of the word.
Why such subjects seem to descend to one of "those " is because the devil has had a feiled day for too long and has "while men slept" been sowing his errors and building strongholds in the minds of men and principally using the scriptures themselves . So as to blind mens eyes to the truth .
This not only applies to the unsaved .But to the saved also .
For while he could not stop a person being saved he will still endevour to blind the mind so for instance so they will not see or comprehend with all the saints what is the exceeding greatness of his power that is towards us who believe ."

This discussion is not really one of "those " internable and vain debates . But at root lies the problem of badly translated bibles on the one hand and an over reliance on Hebrew and Greek (alone) on the other .



in Christ
gerald

On reflection, that was a flippant remark of mine, considering the subject under discussion. I appreciate your remarks, dear friends.

 

[geralduk]

On reflection, that was a flippant remark of mine, considering the subject under discussion. I appreciate your remarks, dear friends.

I attempt to aproach this as if we were face to face and among bretheren . It is easy to misunderstand on line .Much of which would be resolved more than likley face to face .
If each aproaches these foruums as if we all stood before God and as we are in the presence of God then much good would be acomplished .

In Christ
gerald

 

[CCW95A]

Well... I don't feel I could put myself in quite the position that the Lord is regarding the matter - He knows the truth perfectly and completely, and I don't. Perhaps I'm the one whose unbelief is grieving His heart. I'm just sad to see so many disagreements about so much precious truth, among God's people - this is undoubtedly the work of the enemy. There's very little sign of divine adjustment taking place, and I say that with myself in mind primarily.

Brother I am sure you are well aware that spiritual growth requires one to change what they believe to accommodate new truth as it is learned. Not that what we once believed was totally wrong, but more of a refining to what we knew before. Some are not willing to accommodate truth as it is given which leaves them stuck in not growing spiritually. This process sometimes is not pleasant as it requires a pulling down of fortresses and castles that have been built up in men's minds through the tradition of man that never had any power to change the person who holds it.

 

[geralduk]

Brother I am sure you are well aware that spiritual growth requires one to change what they believe to accommodate new truth as it is learned. Not that what we once believed was totally wrong, but more of a refining to what we knew before. Some are not willing to accommodate truth as it is given which leaves them stuck in not growing spiritually. This process sometimes is not pleasant as it requires a pulling down of fortresses and castles that have been built up in men's minds through the tradition of man that never had any power to change the person who holds it.

There is the milk of the Word and there is the meat of the word.
ANY truth as it is in Christ will always dovetail perfectly with any other truth that is in Christ.
and will be in harmony with it as the laws of physics are in harmony with each other .
For we are taught line upon line precept upon precept. By Him who leads us into all truth .
It is much like a Jigsaw puzzle .
The milk of the Word is like unto the side peices and the corners . easily identifiable and should be the first peices put together .
Once you have those in thier right place and established . You know two things . ALL that follows will be inside that frame and there is nothing outside it .

Every peice that follows will fit perfectly with the peices next to it and in its place .
If at the beginning you think a peice may go here or there .it will not fit with another or you will come to find it needs to be moved to a different part of the Jigsaw .
Sound doctrines will liek in a jigsaw be understood in part and will become little clusters of the puzzle . which you put here or there as you may seem fit.
As you continue you will find peices that will join clusters together . and as you progress you will find that you have put some parts in the wrong places . so you keep adjusting as you keep on going.
At some point and long before you finish the puzzle you will understand or see the picture as it were when whole.When that happens you will know where pieces are supposed to go and where they do not for you know where they will fit into the picture .
"By practice you will know good from evil"
Does this mean you will come to know all things? NO.
The puzzle is bigger than you think.
But you will by him not only grow in grace and in the knowledge of God ,but will be degree have the Word of God dwell in you richly ; rightly divided and in order .

In Christ
gerald

 

[CCW95A]

There is the milk of the Word and there is the meat of the word.
ANY truth as it is in Christ will always dovetail perfectly with any other truth that is in Christ.
and will be in harmony with it as the laws of physics are in harmony with each other .
For we are taught line upon line precept upon precept. By Him who leads us into all truth .
It is much like a Jigsaw puzzle .
The milk of the Word is like unto the side peices and the corners . easily identifiable and should be the first peices put together .
Once you have those in thier right place and established . You know two things . ALL that follows will be inside that frame and there is nothing outside it .

Every peice that follows will fit perfectly with the peices next to it and in its place .
If at the beginning you think a peice may go here or there .it will not fit with another or you will come to find it needs to be moved to a different part of the Jigsaw .
Sound doctrines will liek in a jigsaw be understood in part and will become little clusters of the puzzle . which you put here or there as you may seem fit.
As you continue you will find peices that will join clusters together . and as you progress you will find that you have put some parts in the wrong places . so you keep adjusting as you keep on going.
At some point and long before you finish the puzzle you will understand or see the picture as it were when whole.When that happens you will know where pieces are supposed to go and where they do not for you know where they will fit into the picture .
"By practice you will know good from evil"
Does this mean you will come to know all things? NO.
The puzzle is bigger than you think.
But you will by him not only grow in grace and in the knowledge of God ,but will be degree have the Word of God dwell in you richly ; rightly divided and in order .

In Christ
gerald

There is only one problem with this kind of thinking. There can be no spiritual growth unless there is renewing of the natural carnal mind which is the enemy of God. Do you think the enemy of God gladly accepts the Word of God without putting up a fight? There are castles and fortresses that first must be torn down in man's mind before growth can be achieved. We all have preconceived ideas in our mind of what truth is based on the parts of the human mind that has already been renewed. The carnal mind can not receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can it know them, for they are spiritually discerned. The natural mind must be told what to believe, and NEVER used as a means of gaining, or discovering truth or everything we believe to be true will be false.

 

[CCW95A]

There is the milk of the Word and there is the meat of the word.
ANY truth as it is in Christ will always dovetail perfectly with any other truth that is in Christ.
and will be in harmony with it as the laws of physics are in harmony with each other .

Even though we know in "part", and we prophesy in "part", and we are to compare spiritual things to spiritual things just like putting a "puzzle" together, but it is not just happy happy joy joy in piecing these things together, as it takes work overcoming the human natural mind, which call these things foolishness.

 

[geralduk]

There is only one problem with this kind of thinking. There can be no spiritual growth unless there is renewing of the natural carnal mind which is the enemy of God. Do you think the enemy of God gladly accepts the Word of God without putting up a fight? There are castles and fortresses that first must be torn down in man's mind before growth can be achieved. We all have preconceived ideas in our mind of what truth is based on the parts of the human mind that has already been renewed. The carnal mind can not receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can it know them, for they are spiritually discerned. The natural mind must be told what to believe, and NEVER used as a means of gaining, or discovering truth or everything we believe to be true will be false.

I am not the enemy of God . Though before I was Born again I was "at emnity with God "
What kind of thinking are you talkign about?
That every truth recieved and given of God from the moment I am BORNagain will and does dovetail perfectly with any other truth I recieve from God .
I see no where in scripture where the milk of the word will or can or does conflict with the meat of the Word ,
I agree that the mind has to be renewed .
But is not every thought to be brought into subjection to the Holy Spirit ?> or the mind of Christ?
Are we not to present our minds and bodies and spirits to God to be wholy sanctified that we may know and prove what is that good and acceptable will of God?
If we are BORN again . Do we not have a new life are made a new creation? are we then to become or remain children of disobedience?
When the Spirit of God shall come he shall lead you into all truth and ey shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
But you seem not to accept the truth that the mind CAN be renewed and or IS renewed .
To have a spirutal mind in other words . But you would seem to suggest that we must be in a continual battle with ourseleves or carnal mind to have spiritual growth.
I see nowhere in scripture for such a concept.
My anology of a jigsaw is not some preconceived ideas as to what the truth is . But how things happen spiritually .
The great trouble is with many is they have not even got the milk of the word sorted out yet and are trying to eat meat .
But as most churches preach only the milk of the word as listed in Hebrews then hwo much spiritual progress or growth is there ?
In truth we have justfied wanderign in the wilderness for 40 YEARS as the NORMALITY of Christian living . When in fact they wandered like that because of thier unbelief for it took them only 40 DAYS to get there .
All the time you hear of the great battle of Paul about knowing the good but not doing it . But no one goes alittle further and repeats what Paul said "Thanks be unto God who gives us the victory through Our Lord Jesus Christ"
Note he GIVES US the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ .
The great battles people have is they still want to live! when the scriptures say we are crucified WITH Christ/.
BURIED with Christ .
You cannot be resurected unless you have died and been buried !
Yet what is written?
The body is DEAD because of sin ,but if the same Spirit that raised up Jesus Christ form the dead dwell IN you he shall also quicken your mortal bodies !
Surely if you are truly BORN again the back of your old nature has been dealt with and broken.
Jesus said I am the truth .
I have no preconceived ideas as to what the truth is in that regard at all. I know the truth .
That makes my Lord my spiritual compass as it were ,For by the Spirit of truth we may know spirit of error .
The spirit can grasp a truth perhaps longer than the mind catches up with it .
You may not understand with your mind what it is true or for that matter the reason why something is in error .
But with prayerful thought and study the Lord will enlighten your mind also .
I once heard a man say something from the pulpit which was When the Lord hung on the cross " he was ground between the mill stones of Gods wrath" At the time i thought "where is that in scripture"!? Yet His Spirit bore witness with my spirit that it was true . It took 10 years before the pennny dropped and I understtod with my mind and could articulate it .
The Trinity of God is irifutable and no true BORN child of God can or should deny it .Though they may be tempted to because they cannot articulate it to any degree of satisfaction.
Yet a child of God is BORN again by the will of the Father .The Power of the Spirit through Jesus Christ the Word of God .
I was first shown something on the matter that in my spirit was irifutable but it took 20 years for me to articulate in some measure some foundational truths on the subject .
I reject any idea that the truth shown an given to me by God as a little child new BORN so to speak will be or could be or is in any way out of harmony or contradictory with any truth I am led to come to know later .
For it was the same Holy Spirit that led me to the truth about my own heart then to Christ as he ahs also led me about other things we all need to know .
Either in my own studies and meditations but a great deal through faithful ministers of God.

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

Even though we know in "part", and we prophesy in "part", and we are to compare spiritual things to spiritual things just like putting a "puzzle" together, but it is not just happy happy joy joy in piecing these things together, as it takes work overcoming the human natural mind, which call these things foolishness.

I never mentioned some super duper happay happy clap handed joy.
I will mention a deep and satisfying joy when peices fit togther and things I have puzzled and chewed over a long tiem sometimes years on and off suddenly fall into place . Bu.t we must walk in the light that we have and not fret over what we do n ot know .
Be settled in our own minds who we now serve and be like sheep willing to be led by the good shepherd of our souls who was faithful that even while we were at emnity with God was still willing to lead us to the truth .

in Christ
gerald

 

[Angela333]

I never mentioned some super duper happay happy clap handed joy.
I will mention a deep and satisfying joy when peices fit togther and things I have puzzled and chewed over a long tiem sometimes years on and off suddenly fall into place . Bu.t we must walk in the light that we have and not fret over what we do n ot know .
Be settled in our own minds who we now serve and be like sheep willing to be led by the good shepherd of our souls who was faithful that even while we were at emnity with God was still willing to lead us to the truth .

in Christ
gerald

This is sooooooooooooo good. It's hitting something deep in me, thanx

 

[geralduk]

Even though we know in "part", and we prophesy in "part", and we are to compare spiritual things to spiritual things just like putting a "puzzle" together, but it is not just happy happy joy joy in piecing these things together, as it takes work overcoming the human natural mind, which call these things foolishness.

I never mentioned some super duper happay happy clap handed joy.
I will mention a deep and satisfying joy when peices fit togther and things I have puzzled and chewed over a long tiem sometimes years on and off suddenly fall into place . Bu.t we must walk in the light that we have and not fret over what we do n ot know .
Be settled in our own minds who we now serve and be like sheep willing to be led by the good shepherd of our souls who was faithful that even while we were at emnity with God was still willing to lead us to the truth .

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

Even though we know in "part", and we prophesy in "part", and we are to compare spiritual things to spiritual things just like putting a "puzzle" together, but it is not just happy happy joy joy in piecing these things together, as it takes work overcoming the human natural mind, which call these things foolishness.

I was thinking more about what you say here and came to this thought in response.
"The entrance of thy Word giveth light "
It is a wonderful thing that God does not deal with us according to our ignorance but according to the great mercy and love by which he has shown us .
Jesus said the kingdom of God is like unto a sower who went to sow .
That not only applies to our ' salvation ' that is in being BORN again .
But also in the word preached to us by faithful ministers of God and by the Spirit .
So that teh truth that is sown in our hearts can fall on stony ground by the way side etc.
The preperation of our hearts before we go to church or prepare to listen to a p;reacher is then vital.
The other thing is for an example . At Christmas we all know how the three wise men came with the shepherds to the manger etc with the three gifts .
That is the problem with religious imagery it puts a false picture in the imagination. For the scriptures actually say that those wise men (who said there was only three?) came "to the child " who was now living in a HOUSE .
and when Herod diligently asked them how long ago was it when they first saw the star . We can with all reasonably come to the conclusion that it was nigh on up to two years before .For that is the age which he commanded all the children to be put to death two years and under .
The imagery then of the wise men being of the middle east is also wrong . For where is it that takes two years from the east to get to Jerusalem by feet and camel?
The film the 10 commandments while visualy spectacular .Mixes truth with error as Hoolywood always does .
and while the great numbers of the exodus in the film ;for a film was great.
The numbers were in truth over 2 000.000 people .
Light overcometh darkness .
and the entrance of they word giveth light .
Entrance to where? The heart .
if all it goes to is the mind then it has to contend .
It must certainly go through the mind . For we are not encouraged to throw away our minds.
But it must go through the mind to the heart. (not feelings) the main spring of our person.
Thus havign checked the FACTS as laid out in scripture and not by man .It was easy and a delight to see the truth and embrace it . There has been no battle about it since nor will be . Save with those who would contend for hollywood or Francis of assisi .Rather than the Word of God.
I once had a conversation with a youn g Muslim man and asked him "do you not believe that Jesus is a true prophet of God"? He replied "yes " I answered and said do you not know that he taught that if you look at a woman with lust in yoru heart you have commited adultery already"?
To his credit he let the word of the Lord drop into his heart and shine a light there .
His face fell and he said "But that would make us all guilty!"
I replied "you said it "
He then ruined himself by trying to justify himself "Ah but it is the womans fault"

in Christ
gerald

 

[Grant Melville]

Brother I am sure you are well aware that spiritual growth requires one to change what they believe to accommodate new truth as it is learned. Not that what we once believed was totally wrong, but more of a refining to what we knew before. Some are not willing to accommodate truth as it is given which leaves them stuck in not growing spiritually. This process sometimes is not pleasant as it requires a pulling down of fortresses and castles that have been built up in men's minds through the tradition of man that never had any power to change the person who holds it.

Yes, absolutely. It's when those fortresses and castles are vigorously defended that the problems begin. I know that from my own personal experience - I've defended the indefensible before now, been dogmatic about ideas of mine which were quite wrong. But, thanks be to God, I've been in a circle of fellowship for many years now where there's spiritual power and unity, where error can be detected and corrected. I'm not about to claim that we - that is, the brethren with whom I walk in fellowship - are correct about everything, but I would say that there's a consciousness of the possibility of error, and the need for dependence on God in everything, and the danger of complacency. Knowledge of our own frailty and weakness after the flesh on one hand, and of the greatness of divine power and resources on the other, would keep us safe. It would keep us humble and dependent.

It's my conviction that certain conditions have to be present if we're to learn. If God is to dwell amongst us, we have to maintain practical holiness: individually and collectively. A believer can be morally clear of a thing personally, but be associated with others who aren't. That is an unholy association, and not a safe environment for learning. That's the case in the denominations of Christendom - there's mixture there. A denomination is a man-made thing - God has not set on churches formed around a particular doctrine or system of church government, or anything else. No, He has set on one Church in relation to its heavenly Head. When we come into man-made associations, we come up against man's principles. There is, inevitably, compromise, and no moral power to deal with evil: in particular, evil persons. By evil persons, of course I don't mean a believer who's struggling with sin and is exercised about it, we all stumble, some more than others. That isn't, I would judge, "iniquity" as in the 'double seal' of 2 Timothy 2:19 ("Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity."). Iniquity would be evil condoned and actively pursued. False teachers, unrepentant sinners, "the concision" (Philippians 3:2) and the rest. We find all this in the denominations of Christendom, and no power to deal with it. The problem often lies not in ignorance of the evil or indifference to it, but a lack of power to separate from it. Believers know that there's evil in their associations, but they don't break from those associations. Often the argument is that they need to stay in order to help others, that their ministry will be interrupted and thwarted if they break away from their church. Well, 2 Timothy 2 is quite clear. "Withdraw from iniquity". The Lord knows those who are His, His hand will be over them. We, as individual believers, simply have to obey the word and the will of God, and withdraw from iniquity wherever we find it. If we do, we'll surely find others who're similarly exercised, who we can have true fellowship with and enjoy unity - not the false, compromising unity of men's associations and so-called "churches", but unity of the Spirit and the uniting bond of peace. In true Christian fellowship on a right basis, if someone falls into error, there's power there to recover them, bring them back to the truth and divine principles.