Can you explain what you mean by the word Church?
As it stands it looks like a contradiction if you mean assembled believers.
The beast & its soldiers - Do you see them coming?
- Thread starter Shepherd Boy
- Start date
As it stands it looks like a contradiction if you mean assembled believers.
This verse not the same yet similar, but comes to mind in what you said.
John 2:24-25
…24 But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew them all. 25 He did not need any testimony about man, for He knew what was in a man.
I believe God knows what we were intend for if chose to follow Him, equally where our choices will lead us when we do not. Both having implications impacting many others.
Agree. Let me give you an example #1....
......"The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".
Is it a Christian denomination? NO!
The MORMONS deny the divinity of Jesus as the Christ.
Example #2.....
The denomination called Jehovah Witnesses claim that they are a Christian Church. Are they NO!
They as well do not believe that Jesus is the Christ. They do not believe in the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, Heaven or Hell.
Example #3....
The Catholic Church claims to be the ONLY true church and if you are not a Catholic you will not go to heaven.
Is the Catholic church a BIBLE Christian church.....NO!
They teach that faith in Mary is as important as faith in Christ.
They teach that Mary was born "sinless and never sinned in her life".
They teach that Mary did not die but was "Assumed" to heaven just as was Jesus.
NONE of those are found anywhere in the Bible.
So then to answer you question........Is the spirt of the A/C alive and well in the "CHURCH" today as it has been for 2000 years......YES!
Why is that do you think.????
I think that it is God's way of culling out the heard!
In Matthew 7:21-23 , He said, Not every one who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Hmm. Let's see now...the Thayer's Greek Lexicon, in reference to the phrase "prevail against" says the following:
κατισχύω: imperfect κατίσχυον; future κατισχύσω; 1 aorist subjunctive 2 person plural κατισχύσητε (Luke 21:36 T Tr text WH); the Sept. mostly for חָזַק; among Greek writings especially by Polybius, Diodorus, Dionysius Halicarnassus; properly, to be strong to another's detriment, to prevail against; to be superior in strength; to overpower: followed by an infinitive, Luke 21:36 T Tr text WH (prevail (i. e. have full strength) to escape etc.); to overcome, τίνος (Jeremiah 15:18), Matthew 16:18 (meaning, 'not even the gates of Hades — than which nothing was supposed to be stronger — shall surpass the church in strength'); absolutely, to prevail (i. e. succeed, accomplish one's desire): Luke 23:23.
Now, when we look at this in relation to the antichrist:
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him (the Beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The latter is the antithesis to the former. So, to make sure I understand you, it's your belief that the Church will simply be stripped of the former promise, even if that prevalence was only a reference to the Rock upon which the Church is built? In other words, that Rock will no longer be under the feet of the Church, leaving her subject to the power of antichrist?
Just trying to wrap my mind around your thinking. If this is traipsing into an arena not allowed in open discussion, we can take this to PM's if you like.
MM
We should always indicate the vast difference between the (C)hurch and the (c)hurch. They are not one and the same.
MM
I thought I said that there would be believers after the Rapture. If I didn't then I am saying that now and it is those people who are seen in Rev. 13:7 that you used.
I do not see "Church" in Revelation 13:7 but I do see...."saints".
The "unbelievers" will be deceived into believing that the Beast is a god. The Beast will Percecute the true believers whose names are written in the Lambs book of Life.
I suppose that if I were God, I'd have all that stuff down pat, but since I'm not, I'll settle on trusting Him to work out all things.
I believe the day you come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, born again, accepted the gift of God's grace or the many other ways that people use to describe repenting of your sin, accepting Jesus justification for those sins by His blood, and making Him Lord at that moment most are the closest to God. And also become part of his body the church.
That happens mostly as a result of a church( a family of faith) each possessing their extra doctrine of dos and don'ts and what we do and do not believe. The only thing it never that straight forward. We do this, but we don't do that each believing their way is the right. Unfortunately, many of these things can mislead an individual into believing things that are not necessarily true. Imposing a new lordship via the church leading them away from Christ and into the minutiae of the operation of each church, it's hierarchy, what is believes and it's propagation those beliefs plus Jesus.
Much like every family in a neighborhood even though it is a family they may not teach their children the right things which impairs of them from living right. This is what they were taught so if it was good enough for them it will be good enough for you. A child starved for the truth but not even knowing where to look fails. The parents to busy to notice because they are occupied with fortify them with other things that will not take them where they need to go. So many quit the race at different points on the journey,. Some may still be walking in it but their hearts are elsewhere.
I am sure there are many churches/their leadership today Jesus could preach the Hypocrite speech found in Matthew 23. And we also see Jesus' rebuke of some of churches in asia minor in revelations so we are not immune, but too many think it the other church Jesus is talking about, (human nature)
Now in saying that I have always been part of a family of faith since my conception in Christ. Spanning an assortment of denominational/non-denominational venues because of relocation and life changes. And in my younger years I traveled the states because of my work and stepped inside an assortment of Churches and their individual belief systems. And within them you would always find those who have a solid belief and have placed their faith in Christ alone even though they were wearing the garments of their family faith what they were wearing wasn't more important to them than who they believed in. These are believers and at some point God will call them out of these places they will become more and more corrupt in the time before the end.
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues
You will know yourself where you are at if you become upset or defensive when someone questions what you are wearing more than where you are going.
And that is a great end to this conversation for me for todayI suppose that if I were God, I'd have all that stuff down pat, but since I'm not, I'll settle on trusting Him to work out all things.
Oh, no. Sorry. That's not what I was asking about.
Let me clarify: I was talking about the Church, through whom the power of Holy Spirit restrains the Beast from coming to power.
I agree that there will be an unfathomable number of people coming to Christ Jesus as saints during the Tribulation. I fully agree.
MM
No problem MM. If you are asking me, YES I am sure that there will be a "church" in n operation during the Trib. However, it will be a church much like the Mormons or RCC. A church in name only or maybe better...the Church of the Beast.
Briefly, can you explain what you mean by the word ’Church’ in one or two sentences?
Ahhh. The World Church...got it. Thanks for that clarification. It's already forming today. Back, years ago, I had no idea just how key a role ecumenicalism would play in the coming, World Religion, currently headed up by some folks we may already know among those whom we've already seen on the stage today...
MM
Folks who have accepted God's gift of salvation and have made Jesus Lord and live like it. If you love me Jesus said, "you will keep my commands", God's heart from the very beginning, you can only serve one master.
The problem is with that pesky word "commandments." Most professing believers believe that's the "moral laws" and the Ten Commandments from the OT. That's because most don't know that Bible collecting dust on their home book shelves. They are mostly products of SOME of what they hear from pulpits and in Sunday school...if they dare get up early enough to attend one.
MM
Yes I believe that it is.
We see today the church denominations of religion such as JW, Mormons, RCC and others who claim to be Christian but DO NOT ACCEPT AND FOLLOW THE BIBLE's directions.
When the Resurrection takes place......those institutions are RIGHT NOW positioned to be able to explain where all those "Old Fashioned" people who belived the LITERAL Word of God have gone.
Those "Churches" will be full of people on the day after the Resurrection !!!!!!! IMHO!
It is sum up in the two greatest commandments (Matthew 22:37-40), both dealing with love. The love of God and the love of fellow man which sin is a destructive force in God's creation.
Everyone talks about love, but wouldn't love also be knowing God so you do not walk in sin. Sin is not a solely isolated problem in one's life. Those who practice and do sin, christian or not, does not love their brother because our sin is not an insulated factor it affects us and inflicts others. With that in mind reading 1 John gives meaning to loving or hating your brother and really the idea John was presenting in that letter. If we keep sinning we do not love God or our bother because we are bringing destruction into His creation.
We may not view it that way when we are being lazy at work, or not taking reasonable care of ourselves, tell others someone else's business or 101 of things we do that seems to be acceptable in our culture but really provides pain or loss to yourself and others. Just thinking out loud
I think sometimes it is the whole reason among one other I have thought of how all of this, the world and us were created the way it was and has been being playing out so we will be ready Him to continue with Him. God stated it right from the beginning
Genesis 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
God has given us everything that pertains to life and godliness it is why a reckoning is coming to see what we have done with it.
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So you define Church as those 'accept God's gift' and 'have made Jesus Lord and live like it keeping His commandments'?
It is a body of those like this from every tribe, nation and tongue. What do you define it as? Were you waiting for me to ask you? Please share
No, I wasn’t waiting for you to ask me. I was sincerely inquiring because ‘church‘ is one of those words that is assumed everyone knows but in reality no one has the same definition. Thanks for your explanation.