That's an interesting way of looking at it, "run to" Paul's writing. Paul's writing can help keep us from misinterpreting Jesus' words, I'd suggest. Would you suggest that Paul contradicts Jesus in some areas?
The Bible Speaks Of Only One Way To Eternal Salvation
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That's an interesting way of looking at it, "run to" Paul's writing. Paul's writing can help keep us from misinterpreting Jesus' words, I'd suggest. Would you suggest that Paul contradicts Jesus in some areas?
Bro.tan
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In this world of modern Christianity people refuse to read their bibles for themselves, instead they rely solely on their preacher. And that’s sad because most preachers don’t do in-depth studying of the bibles themselves instead they rely on prewritten sermons some of which can be found at the neighborhood bible bookstore. There are only a few preachers that actually teach the true uncut word of God. And when the average preacher does go into the bible most only want to read the writings of Paul. And they don’t even read all of Paul’s writing. They’ll read a verse or two here and there and try and build a doctrine on it. These are what we call selective readers, reading only what they think will support their false teachings. You can read to them straight scriptures out of the bible and straight statements that Jesus himself made, and they will look you in the eye and say, but Paul said! I got news for you; there is nowhere in the bible where Paul contradicts the word of God.
Paul has no kingdom to put people in nor does he have a lake of fire to torment you in. God had Peter to clearly warn people about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now people need to take heed to this warning, people can’t ignore all the bible and just concentrate on one or two verse out of the writings of Paul. Because some of Paul’s writing is hard to be understood.
I agree on both of these points.
However, I don't think anyone here is attempting to "ignore all the bible and just concentrate on one or two verse out of the writings of Paul" at all. Actually, I'd say a convincing argument has been presented to you based on a holistic reading of the Bible (where "holistic" is "characterized by the belief that the parts of something are intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole.")
When people quote Paul in response to something you quote from Jesus' writing, I really doubt that they would be trying to suggest that Paul is contradicting Jesus. I think when we hear some of what Jesus says, it's also difficult to understand, so we ask, "okay, but what does that mean?" If we believe that the Bible is the best interpreter of the Bible, then we look into the scriptures for our answers, so as not to lean on our own understanding, agreed? If there is a difference between what a preacher/teacher (like yourself, for example) says about how to read what Jesus says about righteousness, and what the NT writers teach about how to read what Jesus says about righteousness, who will I believe?
For example, you've quoted from Matthew 5:17-20, and said "then that's that." But this is actually a very difficult passage with some complex ideas. Like you said, and I couldn't agree more, we cannot simply plunk a verse down and say "that's that," we need to try to understand the Bible as a whole. If I don't know what Jesus was talking about in Mat 5, then "that's that" doesn't help me very much. I can simply take your word for it that you have the correct reading, or I can look to the scriptures as the best interpreter of scripture.
If I want to understand how it is that I can hope to have a righteousness that "surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law," I can look to the consistent and ubiquitous New Testament teaching about the righteousness that comes from faith as surpassing the righteousness that comes from the law, the latter of which Paul counted as loss and rubbish. As I understand it, a holistic reading of the Bible can help keep us from misunderstanding Jesus' teaching in Mat 5, so as not to mistakenly believe in a righteousness that comes from the law.
I'll also point out that Peter doesn't actually seem to be warning people about Paul's writing, but warning against distorting scripture in order to give yourself permission to sin, which no one here is advocating. The people that are "unlearned and unstable" wrest (distort) "the other scriptures" as much as they distort Paul's writing, it seems.
Its the legalist that struggle at Pauls epistles and are being brought to destruction.
Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
1Ti 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
Bro.tan
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Most of our present day Christian preachers teach against the Law, Prophets and most important Jesus Himself. By making statements such as, "we don't have to keep that old law its been nailed to the cross." These preachers use the books of Paul to make that statement. If that were true, that would mean no one would be able to sin. Why? Because if there is no law there is no sin. Sin is not imputed or no blame can be accredited to any person when there is no law. But, in I John 3:4 it states, "whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." So if the law was nailed to the cross that would mean its okay to use the Lords name in vain, put other gods before HIM, make graven images and bow before them, pollute the Sabbath day, steal, commit murder, commit adultery and bear false witness. If all these things are okay to commit, then we might as well throw the Bible out the back door and do what ever feels good to us.
Lets take a look and see what the Master said in Luke 10: 25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him,What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Now let allow Jesus to break down what loving your neighbour like thyself means, in his own words again
Now let read it again...Jesus said in Matthew 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Understand brothers and sisters that the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week, is included in the commandments as well.
No matter what you read in the BIble, you can not overturn these verses, you can not. Paul can't over turn these verses. No Prophet or apostles can overturn these verses, so what ever else you read in the Bible that talks about a law, that sounds like something else, then it is something else, a another law. The royal law (ten commandment) are forever
Bro.tan
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In 1John its written...2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him
I don't rely on preachers. Most of my Bible learning has been from reading it myself and asking God and christian brothers and sisters for insight. Happy to say...;-)
True. And Paul doesn't seek to "overturn" them.
However, Paul can show us how to read these verses correctly, instead of interpreting them simply as we see fit. So if we absolutely must use the word "overturn," Paul can help overturn misreadings of the verses you've referenced. I would humbly suggest that Paul's writing demonstrates that you may need to take another look at how you've chosen to read Jesus' words here.
Why would you think it's been suggested otherwise? No one here is advocating that we have permission to sin. The question is about what makes us blameless to the law: our own ability to follow it perfectly, or Christ's atonement?
The title of this thread is, then, absolutely correct. Christ's atonement is the one way to salvation spoken of in the Bible.
You always seem to take things out of context, And can never defend your doctrines?
1Jo 3:20 ¶ For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 ¶ And this is His commandment(1) that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and (2)love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
"nothing profits but faith working by love"
By the way for those who wonder at the plural and the singular? The word for "commandment" "entole" in Greek is often used to describe any instruction of the Lord and is often not translated as commandment but as a precept or injunction and the word can be translated in the plural or singular based upon the translators understanding of the context. Same word translated as commandment and commandments throughout New testament.
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- Who is trying to overturn? Its all fulfilled in one word... love , what God has done it take it out of our way of "believers" because its purpose is to make all guilty and only when we admit we cannot keep its unbending standard, do we uphold its true standard and its purpose. What the Lord was doing in these passages was to use the law for its purpose, to make this man see he was a sinner. But because he thought he had kept the law? he could not see his need for Christ and the grace of God. When the Lord said for him to sell all and follow Him? He was trying to show him that he was not keeping the law, he did not put God before all things and above his belongings, he was breaking thou shalt not covet and some other commandments Im sure. But his hypocrisy blinded him from seeing the truth. Just like all who attempt to teach the law, they are blinded by the law. They cannot keep what they preach and are what God hates above all things, hypocrites.
Bro.tan
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In judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "Paul said...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). Jesus warned us in Matthew 6:13, 14 that the road to salvation is straight and narrow and that only a few of us will find it. Many are traveling down the wrong road, which leads to destruction. This is because many of us have heard about salvation but few of us want to do what is necessary to get salvation (many are called but few are chosen). Many contend that Jesus did it all and now all we have to do is have faith. The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. People have understand that this includes the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week, not the first day.
Now any Christian in their right mind wouldn’t dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! They are either uninformed about which day is the Sabbath day of the God of the Bible or they are just following the tradition of religion that was passed down through the family or maybe they have let some preacher give them other excuses for ignoring God’s true day of worship.
You see, the Sabbath day is a sign between God and His people forever. Israel is His people then, now and whoever chooses to obey Him now are His people. God intended for the weekly Sabbath (this word means rest in Hebrew) to be a refreshing blessing for mankind. God knew that human beings would need periodic rest and change from work. But the purpose for keeping God's Sabbath goes far beyond simply resting on that day. Lets go into (Gen.2:2-5) (v.2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (v.3) And God blessed the seventh day (every seventh day of the week is a blessed and holy day) and sanctified it (it is a day that is separated (sanctified) for a purpose) because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (v.5) “and there was not a man to till the ground.” There was not a Jew, Catholic, Baptist, or Seventh Day Adventist; in fact, there was not a Christian when He constituted the Sabbath Day!
Bro.tan
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I agree with the verses quoted, but you quote in the wrong context, all the time. Then you don't admit when you wrong. All the scriptures and verses in the Bible are to be understood, not quoted on top of each other like its a game. I don't defend to much when it comes to you, because its just a merry go round and I don't think you serious about your salvation, and in the end it seems to become a waste of time. I understand your doctrine the way you and others perceive the word of God and its much, much more to it. . Paul said in Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Before you can start any task you must first know about it and without the key of knowledge we are lost. "...thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make the wise unto salvation..." (II Timothy 4:15)
Lets me recap what I quoted...in 1john 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Now I am going to show you and others from Jesus words the commandments 1john is talking about, since you making the word commandment into something else. Now... Jesus said in Matthew 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Understand brothers and sisters that the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week, is included in the commandments as well.
This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).
True saints realize that God's law must be obeyed to receive eternal life. See... Exodus 20th chapter.
Agreed. And when I give account, will I rely on a righteousness that comes from the law, or the righteousness that comes from faith? Will Christ see me me as just because of my own ability to perfectly uphold the law, or because of His atonement for my shortfallings?
Agreed. We are saved by faith, as the scriptures consistently assure us in both the old and new testament, but you are absolutely correct in that we can make a distinction between a dead faith and a living faith (James 2:14). Our actions are not the basis of our salvation, but the evidence of our faith. So the question is not about whether or not "our actions will prove it," but whether or not our salvation depends on following the law perfectly, or on the power of Christ to atone for our sin.
Is this entire threat actually just about the Sabbath? There are other threads on that topic if you want to participate. Let's talk about whether our salvation comes from perfect obedience to the law, or from the atonement of Christ.
Did the old testament Hebrews find their salvation through following the law?
See Leviticus 16:8-34, which describes Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths."
The Hebrews' holiest day of the year was "a sabbath of solemn rest for you... to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins ."
What did the Hebrews have to do on Yom Kippur to receive atonement? The same thing they had to do when the serpent was raised in the wilderness (Numbers 21:6-9), show up, look up. Was there something more they had to do?
John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Did Christ come to die to make salvation more difficult for us than it was for the OT Hebrews ? Or can we receive the Sabbath rest of His atonement as well? Mat 11:28-30
Its really pretty simple ?
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
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Bro.tan
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Its really pretty simple ?
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
You think I desire to teach...you should have ask the question first. Once again God had Peter to clearly warn you about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now you need to take heed to this warning.
I agree with all those verses, but they are quote in the wrong context with the wrong understanding. Romans 13: 8,9 is not talking about the same law, Paul saying in Roman 7: 4-6 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter
Paul speaks in a confusing way sometimes and if you don't have understanding in the whole Bible you will get turn around. Think about what Paul is saying here in verse 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What law? What letter? Not the commandments, so Paul must be talking about another law. Paul explained this in; (Heb.10:1, 9-10,18,26-27) (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments. (v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.
Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgment and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).
Lets continue to what you quoted in Romans 7 Now, Paul said in (Rom. 7:7, 12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy? Paul also said in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.
This is the correct way to understand Paul. Paul talks about two laws in his conversation, only one of those laws got nail to the cross, and its not the Royal Law (commandments),
Peter was not warning against Paul, or his writings. He was warning others about people like you who cant seem to understand the gospel.
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
Bro.tan
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I see I wasted my time talking to you, again. In scriptures its written in Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination