The Book Of ROMANS.....A Systematic Teaching

[Major]

Romans 9:13...............
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
This quote is rom Malachi 1:2–3..................
"I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."

This statement was not made until the two boys had lived their lives and the two nations had come from them, which was about two thousand years later.

As has been seen and stated by Paul, God made this choice before they were born based on nothing other, apparently, than His own will and purpose.

We easily understand that He would love an unborn child, but why and how could He have hated Esau, let alone before birth?
Right away, the skeptic will say........THAT IS NOT THE GOD I KNOW!

Now I am not trying to be critical here or judgmental in any way, BUT when and if you here that said, may I say to you that that is a perfect example of Bible ignorance and a way to try and prove what someone thinks about God who does not know God!

We have to keep in mind that cultures differ in how they speak, which involves more than just the specific words they use. Different societies use different forms and figures of speech, as well. In that era, the love-hate phrasing is meant to show a contrast, not to imply that one side is looked at in some insulting way.

Allow me to explain. It helps to look at the word "hate" in the New Testament. Jesus said this to those who were deciding about whether to follow Him or not in Luke 14:26...........
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple".

Of course, Jesus doesn't want us to carry bitter, angry feelings toward our fathers, mothers, wives, and children. After all, we are commanded in Scripture to honor our parents, love our wives, and to raise our children wisely. In this case, the word "hate" is about comparison. Jesus wanted disciples who were so deeply committed to Him that their love for their family members looked like hate by comparison.

The same idea is at work in God's use of these contrasting words in Malachi and quoted by Paul here. God's act of love for Jacob, in choosing to give to him the covenant promises, was well beyond His actions towards Esau, in declaring that Esau would serve Jacob. There is a strong contrast there: one is clearly being given the preferred treatment, the other is not. Using dramatic, contrast-enhancing language, it can be said that one was "loved" and the other "hated."

The bigger issue for Paul's argument is that God made this decision based on nothing more than the fact that God has the right to decide. Is that fair? Paul will address that in the following verses.
Lets see!

 

[Dave F.]

This quote is rom Malachi 1:2–3..................
"I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."

What is meant by "dragons of the wilderness"?

 

[Major]

What is meant by "dragons of the wilderness"?

Good question..........."for the dragons of the wilderness" are so called to distinguish them from sea dragons, or the dragon fish; such as whales and crocodiles, which are sometimes expressed by the same word here used, in Gen. 1:21 and Ez. 29:3.
.

 

[crossnote]

Malachi 1:3 BSB
but Esau I have hated, and I have made his mountains a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Malachi 1:3 ESV
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."

Malachi 1:3 NASB95
but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."

Malachi 1:3 NIrV
instead of Esau. I have turned Esau's hill country into a dry and empty land. I left that land of Edom to the wild dogs in the desert."

Malachi 1:3 CSB
but I hated Esau. I turned his mountains into a wasteland, and gave his inheritance to the desert jackals."

Malachi 1:3 NLT
but I rejected his brother, Esau, and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau's inheritance into a desert for jackals."

Malachi 1:3 LSB
but I have hated Esau, and I have set his mountains to be a desolation and his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.”

etc.

 

[Major]

Romans 9:14............
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."

***********THE CHOICE OF ISRAEL IS IN THE SOVERIGN PURPOSE OF GOD*************************************************

The natural man rebels against the sovereignty of God. If/when anything is left to God to make the choice, man immediately concludes that there is some injustice involved! WHY IS THAT DO YOU THINK??????
Most of the time we never know the judgments of men. Most of the time we do not even question them. Think back over the last 100 years and consider the judgments/decisions of men that has cause the death of millions of human beings in wars. Man after man made choices to go to war and cause the death of millions and we turn right around and elect them again to do the same thing again!

God is sovereign and He runs the show! We can trust God! We cannot avoid the doctrine of election nor can we reconcile Gods sovereign election with mans free will. Both are true! Lets keep in mind that He is the boss and this is His universe.

I am nothing, just a little old creature on the earth and God may take away my breath at any time now. I do not have the audacity to stand and look at Him and question what He does or even ask why.

So then........."Is anything injustice on God's part?" By no means! But this naturally leads one to ask how is it just, then?

Paul will address that in the following verses.

 

[crossnote]

God is sovereign and He runs the show! We can trust God! We cannot avoid the doctrine of election nor can we reconcile Gods sovereign election with mans free will. Both are true! Lets keep in mind that He is the boss and this is His universe.

I like to see it as a tension between God’s sovereignty and man’s choice rather than ‘free will’ because man is under the power of the evil one, and the influence of the flesh and the world. He is responsible for the choices he makes but his will is in bondage.
No? Yes? Maybe?

 

[Major]

I like to see it as a tension between God’s sovereignty and man’s choice rather than ‘free will’ because man is under the power of the evil one, and the influence of the flesh and the world. He is responsible for the choices he makes but his will is in bondage.
No? Yes? Maybe?

YES!........You allways have insightful comments and questions!

All people have free will in that they are free to choose what they want to choose, but our desires, flesh, which lead to our choices, are affected by our natures, sin.......so that those with a sinful nature only desire to choose sin.

The Bible is clear in that our nature as fallen persons is not neutral; rather, we are desperately sinful, not merely because we sin by omission and by commission but because we have all inherited a depraved nature. We sin because we are sinners! This means that apart from the grace of God, we are unable to choose anything other than sin because by virtue of our sinful nature, we only desire to choose sin. In this way, the human will is both free to choose and make morally culpable choices and bound to only choose sin apart from the grace of God.

 

[Major]

Romans 9:15...........
"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
If you will recall, Moses wanted to see the glory of God. God said...."I will show it to you but I will not show it to you because you are Moses".

Now Moses was a very important man. He was leading the children of Israel out of bondage and through the wilderness.

God says........"I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. I will do this for you, not because your Moses, but because I AM God"!

Perhaps that's not a very convincing argument against the idea that God is "unfair" in choosing one over another. However, this already eliminates the suggestion that God is being "unjust." And, as this passage shows, Paul is not yet done making his case.

Now, do you know why God saved YOU? It was not because you are you but because He is God! He made the choice not you!
You might want to print that out and place somewhere to remind you every day why you can save that YOU are saved!

 

[Major]

Romans 9:16.............
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

You see, God's mercy is not extended as a recognition of human will, nor is it a reward for human work.

Our will and our work are not motivating factors for what God does!

We as humans tend to think that our decisions and ur efforts cause God to look upon us with favor. Not So!
God extends mercy and He does it because He is God!

God is not not obliged to do anything for anyone, so God choosing some for mercy and not others cannot be unfair in the negative sense that word most often means. In fact, the most "fair" thing to do would be to withhold mercy from all people; mercy is a benevolent form of "unfair" treatment.

No person can ever earn God's mercy, so nobody has more of a claim to deserve it than any other. God owes His mercy to absolutely, positively no one. By definition, "mercy" is something given to those who do not deserve it or have not earned it. If it's earned or deserved, it's not an issue of grace or mercy.

We have to as saved believers, get away from the TV evangelists false teaching that God owes us something! That kind of NAME it and CLAIM it teaching has developed a generation of believers who have come to think that God is a Cosmic Santa Clause.

 

[Major]

Romans 9:17...............
"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."
God says that He used Pharaoh. "BUT" some one will say............He was not elected!

NO he sure was not. But, thick of the opportunities that God gave him. Pharaoh probaly said......"I am in charge here and they can not go"!

But God said.........."You may think you are in controle, and you may think you wont let the people go, but you will"

God wanted Pharaoh to know that He had raised Pharaoh—or Egypt—to power and prominence so that God could show His own, much greater, power in bringing Egypt to her knees. God's stated reason for doing this was that His own name would be proclaimed in all the earth.

In other words, God raised up Pharaoh and brought Pharaoh down for the sake of His own glory. This is meant to be understood in the context of Paul's upcoming remarks about a potter having the right to mold clay for his own purposes.

All of this means that God forced Pharaoh's heart to make the decision that was in his heart. God forced him to do what he wanted to do. There never will be a person in hell who did not choose to be there.

We all make our own decisions in life!

 

[crossnote]

God says that He used Pharaoh. "BUT" some one will say............He was not elected!

NO he sure was not. But, thick of the opportunities that God gave him. Pharaoh probaly said......"I am in charge here and they can not go"!

Major, here is where my understanding hits a brick wall…what opportunities did Pharaoh have sitting on the Potter’s wheel? (vs 21)

 

[Major]

Major, here is where my understanding hits a brick wall…what opportunities did Pharaoh have sitting on the Potter’s wheel? (vs 21)

He has 10 opportunities to let the people go.

But your point I think is that God removed Pharaohs free will by hardening his heart? Right

I do not know if God's "hardening of Pharaoh's heart" is in conversation with the modern question of free will vs. determinism, but it is clear that the hard heart is an event that happens.

I do know that A man can only use his will within the limits of his nature. So the first point is that Pharoah being unregenerated could only make decisions within his sin nature; free will means that while man can make any decision, he will only make the decisions that his sin nature allows him to make.

The main point though is that God is in charge of everything. He doesn't remove man's free will, but he does direct his heart and actions to fulfill his eternal purpose established before the foundation of the world. He is sovereign.

 

[Major]

Romans 9:18.............
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

The point is.........Nobody "deserves" mercy, so there is nothing unjust or inappropriate about God's choice.
That applies as much to moments when God pointedly withholds mercy as it does to those times when He grants it.

In fact, in the previous verse, Paul cited the example of God's words to Pharaoh before delivering one of the plagues on Egypt. Through Moses, God told Pharaoh that God had raised him up to show His own power over Egypt and to make His own name proclaimed in the earth. In other words, God raised Pharaoh up in order to rain down plagues upon Egypt for the sake of His own glory.

Paul states again that God will have mercy on anyone He wants to. Now, though, Paul adds a new statement: God will harden whomever He wishes to, as well.

This, too, is a reference to Pharaoh. This ruler had made a clear choice to reject God's will. Exodus 10:1 quotes God telling Moses that He had hardened Pharaoh's heart to keep Pharaoh from letting the Israelites go. This was so God could continue showing Himself through the signs of the plagues. God does the same thing to Pharaoh's heart at least four more times after this.

Pharaoh, then, is the one God held responsible for saying no to Moses' request from God to let the Israelites go. In particular, his refusal of the initial request set up the rest of Egypt's troubles. After that, God clearly intervened to make Pharaoh continue in his hard-heartedness towards Israel.

Dr. J Vernon Magee in his Commentary explains that God did not “harden Pharaoh’s heart” so much as “allow Pharaoh’s heart to be hardened”. This was achieved allowing Pharaoh to (incorrectly) perceive limits to God’s power in bringing the plagues.

Paul is insisting that God has every right to do this because He is God. He owes no one anything. The fact that He gives mercy to some of us—any of us—is a gift, not an obligation (Romans 4:2–5; 11:6). He is God.

Nobody "deserves" mercy, so there is nothing unjust or inappropriate about God's choice. That applies as much to moments when God pointedly withholds mercy as it does to those times when He grants it.

 

[crossnote]

But your point I think is that God removed Pharaohs free will by hardening his heart? Right

Well you said "But, think of the opportunities that God gave him."

Paul said "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"Romans 9:21

So if Pharoah is on God's pottery wheel, where does that leave Pharoah, as far as opportunities go?
(sorry, didn't mean to pit you against Apostle Paul)

 

[Major]

Well you said "But, think of the opportunities that God gave him."

Paul said "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"Romans 9:21

So if Pharoah is on God's pottery wheel, where does that leave Pharoah, as far as opportunities go?
(sorry, didn't mean to pit you against Apostle Paul)

If I was pitted against Paul........I lose before we begin.

 

[Major]

Romans 9:19...........
"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"
This is the reasoning of the natural man: If God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, why should he then find fault with Pharaoh????
Wasn't he accomplishing God's purpose????

This speaks to the question that "crossnote" is asking in post # 371 and 374,

Pharaoh is the one who said no at first, but God is the one who made sure Pharaoh's heart did not soften in surrender or repentance, so that Pharaoh would keep on saying "no" to Moses and Israel.

Is that "fair" of God? That's what Paul's imagined readers are asking. How can God find fault with Pharaoh when God is the one who caused the hard heart? After all, how could Pharaoh, or anyone else, resist God's will? Isn't God treating Pharaoh as a puppet, punishing him for actions he cannot actually avoid?

It's a sensible question, from a human perspective. If any person was able to do to Pharaoh as God did, we would universally agree: it is not "fair" to hold someone responsible for a decision which some other person irresistibly forced them to make.

What do we make of this, when it comes to God? We might debate whether God really forced Pharaoh to say no, or whether He just unbalanced Pharaoh's emotions. We might point out—validly—that Pharaoh hardened his own heart repeatedly (Exodus 7:13; 8:15) before God stepped in to make that hardening permanent.

For the sake of Paul's current point, however, none of that matters. Paul will respond to the questions of this verse by insisting that human terms don't apply to God. He can do as He wishes. He is God. Not only is His perspective more complete than ours (Isaiah 55:8–9), He is in the position of Creator; we are not.

God did as He liked in Pharaoh's heart because He is God and He has an absolute and sovereign right to do so. That is the first, foremost, and main answer to any charge that God treated Pharaoh in an "unfair" or "unjust" way. This, again, falls under the realization that nobody deserves mercy (Romans 3:10; 3:23), so the fact that God withholds it from certain people is not unfair to those particular persons.

 

[Major]

Romans 9:20.........
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

You see......human reasoning is not the answer to the problem. The answer is only found in the mystery and majesty of God's sovereignty.

FAITH leaves it there and accept it in humble obedience.

UNBELIEF rebels against it and continues on under the very wrath and judgment of the God it questions.

BUT we tend to say...........I do not understand it??????

In fact......you do not know what keeps the earth at the precise same distance from the sun all the time.
You do not actually know how a 50 ton ship of steel and iron floats on water.
I can go on and on but I think you get the idea. There are losts of things we take for granted that we really do not know.

 

[Major]

Romans 9:21.........
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God reaches into the same lump of humanity and takes out some clay to from Moses. Again, He reaches in and takes out of the same lump the clay to make Pharaoh. It was an ugly, unlovely, sightless and sinful mass of clay at the beginning. His mercy makes a vessel UNTO HONOR = a person for honorable use. It is the Potters right to make another vessel for DISHONOR = common fleshly use.

There's nothing unfair or unjust about God granting mercy to some, and none to others. Nor is there anything wrong with God purposefully using His creations to demonstrate His glory (Romans 9:17–18).

Paul's last example was that of Pharaoh, in the Exodus, who experienced a God-hardened heart which contributed to God raining more plagues down on Egypt. Paul imagines his readers asking, in essence, "How could God blame Pharaoh for being resistant if Pharaoh had no choice in the matter?"

In the prior verse, Paul turned the tables: Who are we, as mere humans, to question God? More to the point, how can we, as created things, question our Maker?

Following that idea, Paul asks if a potter has the right to make whatever he wants from the clay. Is he allowed to make from the same lump one pot for "honorable" things, such as holding flowers or valuables, and another pot for "dishonorable" things, such as a toilet or waste bin? Of course, the potter has an absolute right to do whatever he wants with the clay. And God has an absolute right to do whatever He wants with man.

Paul's case that God can do as He likes corrects our usual thinking about God and us. The Maker gets to decide what He will make and what He will do with it. The thing which has been made has no say in that, morally or otherwise, no matter how loudly we might complain.

Paul's response is harsh, but it's absolutely beyond argument. That combination of truth and humility is why his point is hard for us to take.

May I say at this point right here a personal note. This is exactly why there is so much LIBERALISM and DRAMA in Christianity!
We say we want the truth.....We want to hear God! However when we get the bottom line truth of God's Word we say.....But I dont like that! That is mean. That is hard to bear!

To that way of thinking I say...........WAKE UP!

Paul will modify this point slightly in the verses to follow, emphasizing God's love and mercy to some, but not to all. His larger point will be that though God is loving, kind, and just, He does not owe anything to any human person. Everything He gives to us is a gift of grace.

This, in fact, is a key point in appreciating the gospel. If God owed some people, or any people His mercy, then it would remove the element of grace (Romans 4:2–5; 11:6). The reason Scripture speaks of God's love in such amazing terms (John 3:16) is because that love is unearned and undeserved. These are two inseparable sides of the same coin: God has the sovereign right to do anything He wants with His own creation, and yet He chooses to show some of us profound mercy through salvation.

 

[Major]

Romans 9:22................
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction".
This is a difficult verse both in its subject matter and because it forces translation choices for scholars trying to adapt the text into English.

Paul asks a question about God's actions towards vessels prepared for destruction. What if God desires to show His wrath and power towards them, but has instead patiently endured these vessels—the reason being described in the following verse?

Paul seems to mean by these "vessels" all those who will not receive God's mercy. These are those who will instead be separated from Him forever in hell. These vessels—these people—are objects of God's anger. This is one area where theology and doctrine begin to take different views of Paul's meaning.

Is God patiently enduring these persons until the time comes for them to be destroyed? Or, is God patiently enduring to make time for some to repent and be revealed as the "vessels of mercy" described in the following verse? Bible teachers disagree based both on translation and doctrinal beliefs.

It interesting to note that, in Ephesians 2, Paul refers to himself as having previously been a child of wrath: We "were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ" (Ephesians 2:3–5).

Some take that, along with verses such as 2 Peter 3:9, as evidence for the idea that God's "patience" is aimed at mercifully giving some of these unsaved persons more time to repent.

In either case, Paul seems to be making two larger points.
#1. God is the Maker, and he has the right to make people to serve His own purposes.
#2. God endures with great patience even those people who are destined for destruction.

In the following verses, Paul explains how God mercifully makes known the riches of His glory to all of those whom He calls to be in Christ.

 

[Major]

Romans 9:23...........
"And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory."

Paul asks, now completing the thought, what if God endures those vessels of wrath with patience, not yet destroying them, in order to make known the riches of His glory for the vessels of mercy?

Vessels = People!

He finished by stating that the vessels of mercy have been prepared beforehand for glory. That last thought fits with what Paul wrote in the previous chapter about all of those who are in Christ (Romans 8:31–39). God predestined, called, justified, and will glorify all who come to Him by faith in Christ.

Paul's main idea here, though, seems to be this:
God's relationship to "vessels of wrath" somehow serves His purpose to reveal His glory to the "vessels created for mercy."
He will use the destruction of the dishonorable vessels to accomplish His purpose of mercy for those in Christ.

Theological difference aside, we can take certain universal points away from this.
1. Some vessels—some people—are destined for destruction and will suffer God's wrath, which all people deserve because of sin (Romans 3:10; 3:23).

2. Other vessels—other persons—will be shown mercy, even though they also deserve wrath because of God's merciful work through Christ.

However the choice is made, or how the details might work, God will call people to faith in Christ—He will elect, or predestine—anyone He wants to. He will hold all others responsible for not trusting in Christ. Not only is this just, it's also merciful, and entirely within His rights as the Creator. He is God.