Yep.
Good thought. That is my understanding as well.
Yep.
I suggest that you calm down.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Sister, Who are those who have endured, or have over come this world? Will eternal life be given to the Church on specific day in time, or at any time in the future? All born again Christians have already been given eternal, and have already over come this world!Hello @geralduk,
Yes indeed, salvation brings the promise of 'life' in Christ Jesus, yet not all who 'live' with Him, will have the added honour of reigning with Him. That is the reward of faithfulness, for those who endure to the end.
Thank you for your input, @geralduk, I have not always followed your reasoning, have not always been in agreement, but praise God for you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Sister, Who are those who have endured, or have over come this world? Will eternal life be given to the Church on specific day in time, or at any time in the future? All born again Christians have already been given eternal, and have already over come this world!
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Thank you Gerald and Chris. You are right about that. Christ is the Body!
I suggest that you calm down.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
If we were speaking face to face you would know how calm I was when I wrote the above.
As it is people can colour what is written with their own perceptions .
If that can be done with mans words how much the more the written word of God?
As it was if you were to read my post more prayerfully you will see that I simply answered your post that you believe that we do not experience the resserection life till we are dead.
* You misunderstood me, Gerald, for I do believe that we experience His resurrection life now, in spirit. Yet there is an experience of His resurrection power which is yet to come, when we are resurrected from the dead, for then mortality will put on immortality.I answered with scripture and biblical argument that this is not so .
I also pointed out that you cannot experience a resurection untill you are dead.
Which may explain why so many do not.For they are nor yet "made conformable to His death"
Or else they do not believe we can .
* I agree that we should not bring the Word of God down to the level of our own experience, Gerald.Given that by Paul's own confession he was given up as dead on two (?) occasions after being stoned, he cannot be said to have not known the power of His resurrection or indeed was not made conformable to his death.
There clearly then; is a lot more to both! and we should resist the temptation to bring the Word of God down to our own experience but lift the Word of God high and by the grace of God bring our experience in line with the Word of God.
* I agree.To the comment about "there is no perfect local church" Who has suggest there is ?
But neither should we ignore the fact that the church itself is a prodigal church .
and is far from what it is to become .
* True.The devil may, and often does accuse the brethren - that we are not perfect or what we should be . We can always answer if it be true that we are not what we was and God will perfect that which concerneth us.
Never the less how are we perfected?
If not by continual exposure to the Word of God and the searching of the Holy Spirit?
* I think I get your drift.It is one thing to say we are not perfect it is quite another to say we need not change a thing!
When Gold is refined in the fire all the impurities come to the surface and is skimmed off and continually so .
So we get different purity of gold.
"I am rich increased in goods ..........................." that alone blasts the false message of "prosperity" out of the water .
"and in need of nothing " means a self satisfied contentment with what that church had .
The Lords perception however was "that it was wretched naked and poor and in need of eye salve" and it did not even know it.,
Clearly by any estimation that church is not ready! and is need to repent and ask God for eye salve .
Another church says I am poor , not prosperous then. But the Lords perception was "ye are rich"
* unfortunately true.I have been a christian for nearly 40 years . My observation and experience is that in most cases what Paul called the Milk of the Word and as listed in Hebrews, is nigh on all that is ever preached and taught .
* We differ in our understanding concerning 'The Bride', Gerald.Working in a Bible bookshop I met many christians . Some theological students in a seminar were only taught all the varying 'opinions' and theories and what I call schools of theology about the last days .But were not taught the truth .
If then they are not taught the truth how will they ever preach it from their respective pulpits and then by that bring God's people to a unity of the faith and a perfection of the Bride?
How in deed can the Bride be perfected when all she gets is the milk of the Word?
* Again, we differ in our understanding concerning 'The Bride', Gerald.In truth the pastor of the church I was saved in confessed to me that as to being BORN-again most, if not all, are in agreement. But in all other matters there is none and there are as many opinions as there are pastors .
I thank God for the man. But whether he was wise to say that to a young Christian is a moot point.
Never the less I have found that to be all too true .
and even in these forums the 'problem' is avoided, as it causes too many divisions and contentions etc.,
Why should that be ?
Unless there is carnality and a basic unwillingness to be led by the Spirit of God who leads us into all truth?
For clearly we, I, you, and the church, should come to know that which is true about any matter that is written in scripture and especially about the Bride of Christ who needs must have "got herself ready".
* Are you referring to, Revelation 3:20,It is not then a jaded view or a cynical or unbelieving view of the church or indeed of what you call weaker brethren.
For I am baptised into that body the lord calls HIS who he has bought with his own blood .
I am therefore a member of that body that view as a whole and not in its component parts.
You say there is no perfect local church ?
or indeed the church is not yet perfect.
Well according to the Lord, HE is outside, knocking on the door of THE Church. That is His body.
There is but ONE church . and whether a man is weak or strong he is inside that church .
After the resurrection no door was a hinderance to him. How come then he is knocking on the door of his own church?
Clearly the church is unaware that he is outside, and think Him inside, or have no regard whether he is in or out .
Whatever the reason then that the Lord is outside and knocking on the door is a CALL to ALL who are inside .
No matter whether you consider them saved or not weak or not .
The CALL is to all .
The promise however is to those "who have an ear and open the door "to THEM will .............."
What is the call ? To repent or stop your present 'program ' and go and open the door to the Lord .
But too many have their own programes and traditions to do so albeit they might hear the knocking but do not then go and open the door. For it will mean too much trouble and adjustments if you do?
The Lord is coming soon. He has, I believe, already left the building to come as it were. Like the sun leaves its abode like a groom.
and if it was the "last days" (Hebrews 1:1) when the Lord walked this earth how much the more are we now in the last days 2000 years later?
For then the days were "green" but now they are "dry" and ready for the fire.
So let us think kindly of one another and with good grace accept the challenges that the written word presents .
in Christ
gerald
Revelation 3:20 and Luke 12:16Dear Complete.
If you look carefully at the two scriptures that speaks of the Lord knocking on the door.
They cannot both apply to the Bride, as one of those quotes speaks of coming "FROM the wedding" or return from the wedding.
Thus another indicator that the Lord first will come FOR his bride and then will come WITH His bride 'from the wedding'
Revelation 3:20 and Luke 12:16
Hello @geralduk,
I'm sorry, but I don't see that. Let's look at these verses a moment.
'Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:
if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him,
and will sup with him, and he with me.'
(Rev 3:20)
The call is to the Wedding Feast of Chapter 19:9:-
'And he saith unto me,
"Write, Blessed are they which are called
unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."
And he saith unto me,
"These are the true sayings of God."
To which the parables pointed, especially Luke 12:35-38. The servants are exhorted to be 'like unto men that wait for their Lord' when He shall return from the wedding; that when He cometh and knocketh they may open to Him immediately. Blessed are those servants whom the Lord when He cometh shall find watching.
* The coming is no longer spoken of as 'near' - He is already at the door.
To the twelve Tribes scattered abroad it is written in view of His coming - ' The judge standeth before the door' (Jas. 5:7,8,9). The nearness of the Lord as the 'judge' is the warning conveyed by these words in the Epistle to the Assembly in Loadicea, and not the nearness of the Saviour in grace, or an invitation to sinners in this day of grace.
'If any one hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.' It is in connection with the 'knocking' just referred to in Luke 12:37 that the promise is given to the 'servants' spoken of (not to the church). 'Verily I say unto you that He shall gird Himself and make them to sit down to meat, and He will come forth and serve them' (Compare Matt. 22:2,3; Luke 14:15; 22:16-18; Mark 14:25, and Rev. 19:9). This is the same watching which is spoken of in Luke 12:39 as the watching for the 'coming' as a thief.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Ref: 'Commentary on Revelation' by E.W. Bullinger
* Yes. This should be interesting."As In the days of Noah ,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man"
The coming of the Lord will be as much a surprise to the World as it was a surprise to the generation of Noah .
and if we are to gain as much food for thought from the Lords statement of these "days" we need then to look first at Noah and then as to his days .
* Absolutely. Praise God!"Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord "
It is often quoted that the law came by Moses but grace and truth by Jesus Christ. and quoted as if the grace of God was only manifested first at the first coming of the Lord.
But it was the grace of God that gave Adam and Eve a covering of animal skins and also a promise.
It was by grace that men from Abel onwards have all been saved. For what applies to us applied to them ."By grace are ye saved ....."
* Good point, @geralduk. What a contrast!"Noah was a just man and perfect with his generations and Noah walked with God "
There are not many people in the scriptures where men are called "Just men." The one that first comes to mind is Joseph the soon to be husband of Mary the mother of Jesus. Who on finding out that she was pregnant and had in his thinking and to all intents and purposes committed adultery "being a just man sought to put her away privately"
- Compare this with the religionists who on finding a couple caught "in the very act" of adultery () did not seek to bring her to Jesus privately or discreetly but quite the opposite.
* All flesh apart from Noah and his family, had been corrupted by the angels that fell (Gen.6) he alone was 'perfect' (without blemish) in his generations, (or in regard to his 'pedigree' or 'line of decent')What then is a just man ? when it clearly has little to do with the justification by the law?
and "perfect in his generations " He was counted righteous - his generations were not .
* , interesting point, Gerald.He "walked with God " So too did Enoch. So why was Enoch translated before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the world and was saved FROM it. and Noah had to endure going through it . or was saved THROUGH it ?
* I don't think we can presume that.Clearly then Enochs walk was of another order or perfection than Noahs.
* This can only ever be conjecture, though, Gerald,can't it? It may tell us something of the man, but it does not give us any reason to make a conclusion as to how that influences God's actions in regard to either.That may well have to do with Noah's later drunkenness. It is said of Noah that he was "moved by fear" Enoch was moved or walked by faith.
* This is what characterises the latter days, too, isn't it? The normality, people going about their business as usual, yet as in Noah's day, men's hearts are evil continually, for they are ungodly.So the days of Noah were filled with all the normal things of life. Eating and drinking, people marrying and having children. But "the heart of men was towards evil CONTINUALLY"
* and .in the days of Noah there was Enoch.
Who was translated before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon that generation.
* Praise God!It should be noted that up to that point it had never rained upon the earth. For the whole earth was watered by the mist in the morning . So it was outside the experience of all. Just because man or ourselves have yet to or have not experienced something we should not measure the Word of God by ourselves.
The children of Israel had been slaves for 400 years putting that into perspective that is 1715 to the present year .
They had known nothing else. For only one, who was Joseph, had been sown in Egypt and by him over 2000,000 had come out.
They were saved by the word and promise to Abraham by God.
They were saved by the power of God and the blood of a lamb.
* Again, Praise God!It should be noted that all the demonstrations of power and judgment did not change the hearts and minds of Pharaoh or the Egyptians, nor did it 'save' the children of israel. It was only the death of the lamb and the blood that was shed and APPLIED that saved them from death and bondage .
* The reference to the days of Noah, was in relation to the conditions that prevailed in that day, it will be the same also in the latter days. ; ;As in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the Son of man.
* I think this is too sweeping a statement, Gerald. For His 'coming' will be as judge too.The coming of the Lord is for the primary purpose of gathering his people unto himself "in the air"
* Where does it say that the Lord will come 'for His Bride', Gerald?For I will come again .."that where I am ye may be also"
He will come FOR His bride.
* This is not so, for there are 'overcomers', and those who 'loved not their lives unto death', who have their place in the new Jerusalem, which is the bride of the Lamb.(). These will go through the tribulation of those days, and lay down their lives, rather than worship the beast or bear his mark. The faithful in their generation.Enoch was translated or 'raptured' before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth. So too will the Bride of Christ be translated before the outpouring of Gods judgments upon the earth.
* 2 Thess. 2:7, and the one who, 'will let', does not refer to the Holy Spirit.For the restraining power of the Holy Spirit that abides in the Bride will go also .
* What justification do we have, Gerald, to make an application of this in this way, if the Holy Spirit does not.Enoch was saved before the flood .
Noah was saved through the flood.,
Luke 12 :35 "as one who comes FROM a wedding ..................."
The ones then he is coming to are ones who clearly were NOT at the wedding for he is coming FROM the wedding.
The two verses then you give contradict each other in THAT sense if you count them as meaning or refering to the same thing
In Christ
gerald
Thank you Gerald and Chris. You are right about that. Christ is the Body!
So we have Enoch who was translated BEFORE the flood of Gods wrath upon the earth and Noah who was saved through it .and Abraham who was no where near the place of Judgment and Lot who was saved from it by getting out of it .
Noah was moved by fear .Enoch walked by faith.
Abraham walked by faith , Lot walked by sight .
and while Abraham remained in the blessing of God and was as 'rich' as he was before . Lot lost all but the salvation of his soul and as the scriptures say of some "suffered loss as through fire"
Here is in part an y way a picture of the Bride of Christ in the lives of Enoch and Abraham. So that we might recognise in them some of the the traits and characteristics of the Bride .
The Bride of Christ has a great many qualities but first it has to be established where she comes from.
As has been said before .The first Adam also had a bride or wife . She was not created from the dust of the earth but from the body of the man .
In case men boast themselves over women God balances everything and man is born of a woman .
But in the matter of creation man was created out of the dust of the earth and she was created form the midst of his body.
She was not created from ALL his body but form a part of his body.
a help meet for him.
The Lord is called the last and second Adam.
In that regard then he is likened unto the first .
Then his wife or bride will also not be created from the whole body but will be made from part of his body or from the midst .
If this was in isolation it is not really proof . For it is in the mouth of two (minimum) witnesses a thing is established.
But we also find the same principle of a body out of a body when we see how Abraham who is a type for the Father sending his high servant a type of the Holy ghost to seek a bride for His Son.
with strict instructions that he was not to seek her from among the world but only" from among his brethren"
The Bride will not be found in the world but in the midst of his brethren.
and what of the twelve tribes of Israel?
Was there not one tribe out of the 12 who had no inheritance ? For The Lord God" was their inheritance "
and how come the tribe of Levi were given this honour? for zeal.
and what of the 12 disciples?
Was there not also a body of them taken from the midst of all of them? Peter , James and John who saw and did things the others did not.
The Bride then is from a double selection a body from the midst of the body . Not divided from the body but separated unto God the " first fruits " holy unto God.
it is due to the misunderstanding of this point that is at the root of most of the confusion over the last days and the coming of the Lord.
For people are saved AFTER and BEFORE what is called the 'rapture' of the Bride .
and each having the same error as to the nature of the Bride accuses the other of being wrong.When in fact they are both wrong on one vital matter .
That not all the body will be ready at the coming of the Lord .
in Christ
gerald