"The Catching Away"

[Major]

Major if you are being constantly reported ( I am not privy to such matters however) you can be sure it is not me who is doing it. I prefer to confront my accusers and those whose teachings are of significant concern openly and directly, using the occassion to help others learn for themselves ways of how to and how not to deal with such matters for as Christ warned those who follow Him must be prepared for many such confrontations. I am not much of a "behind closed doors" type person.

Besides I am certain that where us two or three find ourselves gathered together I am sure a moderator or two is certain to be in the midst of us keeping an eye on things . They know who does and does not report to them and I am certain if they think it is necessary they will chip you for making such false and unfounded accusations.

As to the rest rather than repeat myself just read the previous response to Bill.

Where did I say I was constantly being reported??????

Again, twisting and adding words.

As for reading your responce to Bill, I think that I will agree with his responce #35 to you and leave it at that.

 

[th1bill]

But will not those who are without the Spirit still THINK they understand the Scriptures? The Pharisees and Sadducees thought THEY understood the scriptures and that Jesus and His disciples did not, all of them being "ignorant and unlearned" men without proper "religious" training. Do not the RC think THEY understand the scriptures better than anybody else? Do not the Eastern Orthodox think it is THEY that have the better understanding? And so on down through ALL the denominations, yours included. Do you think ALL of these share the same Spirit even though they teach vastly different doctrines?

Yes! And there are some in the RC Church that do understand the scriptures and live, just as we do, for and devoted to Jesus. As for the Doctrinal differences, and they are wide and varied, there is only one that all must agree on for salvation... even mine! That is, of course, the limited inclusive doctrine of Salvation! Salvation has nothing to do with all of the Secondary Issues included today.

Then, on top of that, without meaning to you are right on the edge of limiting the limitless power of God. The Holy Spirit will not be here for those seven years (IMO) but God can work in ways and manor that I, a finite man, can not even dream of.

Remember those who cry "Lord Lord" that Jesus spoke of all believed THEY had understood the scriptures properly. Of what use is it to just say "I understand the scriptures better than you"? Or "my church is better than your church"? Or "I have the Spirit and you don't"? Is not this no more than the way of children in the playground? Is not the only difference that they are more likely to stick their tongue out at the end and go "nah,nah,nah"?

I must liken this statement unto a loose canon rolling around, It´s loaded, the fuse is burning, your the only man on deck, when you tried to catch it the barrel tilted down and the sea has 20 foot waves tossing the ship... disaster seems certain. Your knowledge of the scripture is ok but the application is so dangerous! We do not struggle against ourselves, it is Satan and his spirit cronies we do battle with!

The Lord has told us how we are to judge and discern the spirits in those we meet. What has been said between us here is there for all to read for themselves as is the word of God. Will not the wise among us judge according to what is written in the word of God and the nature of the fruits our words bear? And will not the foolish among us do what the foolish have always done - judge foolishly?

Rabbit trails are never justifiable so what is this about? Nothing that Major, nor anything I have presented to you is anything short of scripture. On the matter of this run through the Briars though, go to Matthew 7 and begin with verse one but keep reading until you read the end of the matter with the Judgment yo wish to be judged by. If a man is a Fool and does not judge good from Evil, he is not of the LORD.

I do not bear my OWN witness of the spirit that dwells within me for as Jesus said "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." (Joh 5:31 ) Rather I allow the written word of God and the fruits the indwelling Spirit causes me to bring forth to bear witness for me knowing those who are wise and who are truly in Christ take note of such things as Jesus has taught them.

I´m working here from memory but what I said I said. If I were among any group of Like-Minded people and I disagreed with them I would find that I need to discover who, exactly they are and why it is that I disagree with all of them. In this case you have found yourself in the midst of a collection of Ministers of the Gospel of Jesus, the Christ and you assert that you are also and yet find yourself disagreeable. Disciples of God are all in agreement and rather than let a man, unknowingly, drive of a broken bridge I would stop and warn him... that is the case here with you and I.

But why do you think I am in the minority here? Just because others may not respond openly or publically for any number of reasons does not mean I am alone. Others may not agree with everything I say and that is OK because I never ask people to believe ME but to believe what is actually written in the scriptures. To believe what the Lord Himself has declared. I am simply encouraging people to test all claims and teachings against what is actually written to SEE for themselves if it is true or not. But while they may not agree with everything I say you should not just assume they agree with everything YOU say either. I encourage people to judge these things according to the way the Lord has taught EACH ONE of them to do for THEMSELVES.

See the red highlight? What you have passed for teaching does not, just, disagree with what Major or with just what i have posted, it disagrees with the scriptures when held up to the context of all scripture.

You have declared that the spirit in you is not the same spirit that is in me. Fair enough, but it is for others to test for themselves and judge which of the spirits is from the Lord and which is not. I test ALL spirits even that which is within me to be certain it is from the Lord, I always encourage others to do the same - Jesus has taught us how to do it. Does it speak in accordance with what is WRITTEN and what is the nature of the fruits it displays.

But your teaching is not in agreement with what is written.

 

[mistmann]

Where did I say I was constantly being reported??????

Again, twisting and adding words.

As for reading your responce to Bill, I think that I will agree with his responce #35 to you and leave it at that.

As far as I am aware the moderators do not advertise or discuss with members who is reporting who or how many reports they get. (At least I have not seen them doing it). My understanding is that such matters are dealt with privately only with the people directly involved, so you would not have any basis for falsely accusing me of a fondness for reporting except from your own direct experience of being frequently reported and have just made the arbitrary assumption it is me who is doing it. I am just pointing out that for whatever reason you have chosen to accuse me of this activity it is a totally false accusation you have no excuse for making. But as I indicated in my previous post, seeing as I am not in the habit of reporting people and am not a moderator I am not privy to the information of who is reporting who and how often, only the logical observation that such an accusation from a member can only come from their own personal experience of being reported. I doubt moderators would discuss with any member those reporting incidents not related to the member.

 

[Major]

As far as I am aware the moderators do not advertise or discuss with members who is reporting who or how many reports they get. (At least I have not seen them doing it). My understanding is that such matters are dealt with privately only with the people directly involved, so you would not have any basis for falsely accusing me of a fondness for reporting except from your own direct experience of being frequently reported and have just made the arbitrary assumption it is me who is doing it. I am just pointing out that for whatever reason you have chosen to accuse me of this activity it is a totally false accusation you have no excuse for making. But as I indicated in my previous post, seeing as I am not in the habit of reporting people and am not a moderator I am not privy to the information of who is reporting who and how often, only the logical observation that such an accusation from a member can only come from their own personal experience of being reported. I doubt moderators would discuss with any member those reporting incidents not related to the member.

After going back and looking at the past posts I have come to the realization that I owe you an apology.

I confused you with someone (Minister Tony) from some time ago and it was he who was reporting everyone at that time.

He has since been banned forever I think.

So, I do apologize to you for my comment and for the mix up.

Now......I encourage you and me and others as well to end the back and forth banter of disagreement and arumenitive attitudes. You have what you believe is true, I have what I believe is true, and once said....said. There is no need to argue because no one is going to change their understanding of what they have learned. Correct????

It is counter productive to the cause of Christ and those who see it must be shaking their heads.

From this point on, I believe we both need to refrain from having negitive responces and focus instead on encouraging things and end the confrontations.

I am going to make that effort and I hope we all will as well.

Major out....

 

[revlynn]

Hi Guys. Sorry I have not been able to get back into this conversation - I have spent most of the last week revamping our ministry website and migrating it (all 130+ pages) to a new platform. I'm not going to be round much for the next couple of weeks, either - from tonight I'm off "critter sitting" for a week, and won't have much internet access, and when I get back I'll be busy preparing for our conference. So, I probably need to bow out of the conversation at this stage. Catch you all later.

blessings,

Lynn

 

[mistmann]

Yes! And there are some in the RC Church that do understand the scriptures and live, just as we do, for and devoted to Jesus. As for the Doctrinal differences, and they are wide and varied, there is only one that all must agree on for salvation... even mine! That is, of course, the limited inclusive doctrine of Salvation! Salvation has nothing to do with all of the Secondary Issues included today.

Gal 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

1 Tim 1:3 "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,"

Judge for yourself whether we are free to teach any other doctrine than that delivered to us by the Prophets and Apostles of the Lord. That is, the doctrine WRITTEN in the pages of the Bible which is the only certain record we have of the doctrine they taught.

As for the rest of your post it is too vague to know for certain what you are saying but it appears to be simply your opinion of me. As best I can make out you seem to be accusing me of something by creating the illusion there is something to accuse me of, without actually making any specific accusation. You are, of course entitled to your opinions but I do not discern truth by the myriad opinions of men but by the facts of reality and the word of my God. I am certain that Christ will teach all who are His to do the same so I do not worry too much about the opinions of men. Jesus taught me very early in our walk together that if I follow Him I will have little chance of winning a popularity contest. It was not a difficult choice to make.

As to who is and who is not in accordance with scripture I am sure all out there have Bibles of their own where they can read for themselves what is written in it and judge for themselves what is and what is not in accordance with it. After all that is what Christ has taught us to do and what He gave us the Bible for.

Those who are in Christ will judge me according to the word of God in their hand and the counsel of the Holy Spirit in their hearts and mind. The judgement of those who are not in Christ is not relevant. I would not wish it any other way.

 

[mistmann]

After going back and looking at the past posts I have come to the realization that I owe you an apology.

I confused you with someone (Minister Tony) from some time ago and it was he who was reporting everyone at that time.

He has since been banned forever I think.

So, I do apologize to you for my comment and for the mix up.

Now......I encourage you and me and others as well to end the back and forth banter of disagreement and arumenitive attitudes. You have what you believe is true, I have what I believe is true, and once said....said. There is no need to argue because no one is going to change their understanding of what they have learned. Correct????

It is counter productive to the cause of Christ and those who see it must be shaking their heads.

From this point on, I believe we both need to refrain from having negitive responces and focus instead on encouraging things and end the confrontations.

I am going to make that effort and I hope we all will as well.

Major out....

Thank you for clarifying the matter Major, your apology is readily accepted.

But as to the other if nothing anybody says is going to make the slightest difference to what anybody thinks then what are we all doing here? If that were the case then CFS is just a monumental waste of time for everybody. I cannot speak for you or anybody else but these forums are not only a place where I share my thoughts and observations but where I also take note of and ponder the thoughts and observations of others.

I am not here to argue but to SHARE my thoughts and observations and the things Christ has taught me, with others and to take the opportunity to think about (and test as we are meant to do) the things others share with me. AND to enjoy the fellowship that goes with it where I can.

I learn many things from others here every day and I am hoping they learn things from me also. Every time I log out from CFS I log out better equipped to serve my Lord than when I logged in.

What is the point of arguing about facts of reality and what is written in the word of God? No amount of arguing will change the reality of either one iota. All I and others can do is point them out or draw attention to them. If others do not want to see them or believe them that is their choice to make. All I or anybody else can do is ensure that WE have got OUR facts right and that includes the factual reality of what is actually written in the Bible and what those words, sentences and paragraphs actually say. THAT we do with the help and counsel of the indwelling Holy Spirit and our very OWN copy of the word of God that HE has made sure we have (and enabled us to have) access to.

We must always remember that we are accountable to the Lord for what WE do, or say or believe, NOT what others do, say, or believe. It is, in the end, rather silly for anybody to get offended or upset or angry that somebody else does not agree with or believe what they say.

Those who are in Christ will display the fruits of the Holy Spirit. They WILL BE (ie. not having need to repeatedly apologize for the lack of) exceedingly slow to anger or to take offense. They will display kindness, consideration, love (of others and of God and of Truth), patience, tolerance (of those they do not agree with). They will not attack (especially personal attack) those who disagree with them. They will not ridicule or belittle them, or mock them. In short they will conduct themselves in a Christlike manner at ALL times.

Those who are not in Christ will stand out in stark contrast. BUT unless we make those who are not in Christ welcome and make allowance for the fact they are not yet in Christ how can we reach them and teach them and SHOW them by our OWN conduct the love Christ (and we) have for them WHILE they are yet "sinners" and not in Christ?

Just shared as things to think about by anybody viewing this thread.

 

[th1bill]

Gal 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

1 Tim 1:3 "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,"

Judge for yourself whether we are free to teach any other doctrine than that delivered to us by the Prophets and Apostles of the Lord. That is, the doctrine WRITTEN in the pages of the Bible which is the only certain record we have of the doctrine they taught.

We MUST be very care here! There are several popular definitions of what the Gospel includes and all but one definition is wrong! I read the scriptures and in doing so I look at and consider the last three verses of Matthew and find that my Primary Mission in life is to make disciples. That, alone, ends the need to fight with another over the unimportant.

One thing to always remember is that the Holy Spirit never disagrees with itself. Remember when Jesus was accused of healing people by the power of Satan and His reply about a house divided? You need to look around you! I´m discussing this matter with you because of the love for your spirit and because you have not gone ballistic on me.

 

[mistmann]

1 Tim 1:3 "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,"

Judge for yourself whether we are free to teach any other doctrine than that delivered to us by the Prophets and Apostles of the Lord. That is, the doctrine WRITTEN in the pages of the Bible which is the only certain record we have of the doctrine they taught.

We MUST be very care here! There are several popular definitions of what the Gospel includes and all but one definition is wrong! I read the scriptures and in doing so I look at and consider the last three verses of Matthew and find that my Primary Mission in life is to make disciples. That, alone, ends the need to fight with another over the unimportant.

One thing to always remember is that the Holy Spirit never disagrees with itself. Remember when Jesus was accused of healing people by the power of Satan and His reply about a house divided? You need to look around you! I´m discussing this matter with you because of the love for your spirit and because you have not gone ballistic on me.

We must indeed be very careful. You will note that Gal 1:8 Speaks of "Gospel", being the Greek word "euaggelizo", 1 Tim 1:3 speaks of "other doctrine" not gospel, being the Greek word "heterodidaskaleo" (hetero-didaskaleo meaning other-teaching)

(From Strong''s)

euaggelizo (yoo-ang-ghel-id’-zo )
1) to bring good news, to announce glad tidings
1a) used in the OT of any kind of good news
1a1) of the joyful tidings of God’s kindness, in particular, of the Messianic blessings
1b) in the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation
1c) glad tidings are brought to one, one has glad tidings proclaimed to him
1d) to proclaim glad tidings
1d1) instruct (men) concerning the things that pertain to Christian salvation

heterodidaskaleo (het-er-od-id-as-kal-eh’-o )
1) to teach other or different doctrine
1a) deviating from the truth

You will also note from Gal 1:8 that it speaks not just of "the Gospel" but of the Gospel that THEY have preached. We cannot pick and choose what we will and will not preach of THEIR gospel nor change it to mean something other than what THEY have preached.

I am glad that you mentioned the last three verses of Matthew. Did you take note that part of the commission Jesus gave us is "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"?

We must ALWAYS be very careful to remember that the authority of the word of God does not come from those who READ it. It comes from those who WROTE it. Authority comes from what is written, not what is read.

But as you say the Holy Spirit does not disagree with itself. Therefore when there is disagreement among us it is vitally important to see which (if any) are in agreement with what the Holy Spirit Himself has written, and which are not. The Bible is the INDEPENDENT witness and VOICE of the Holy Spirit among us and it is wise to take note of who speaks in accordance with it and who does not. This is how we discern between the spirits among us to see which are from God and which are not.

 

[vision1]

Yet again, when posters on this forum lack the wisdom, to refute or challenge Mistmann's words they resort to personal insults.

 

[Major]

Yet again, when posters on this forum lack the wisdom, to refute or challenge Mistmann's words they resort to personal insults.

While I understand your comment, may I also say that communication is a two way street.

Gal. 5:15....
"But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another."

verse 7.....
"Be not deceived, God is not mocked for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap".

 

[Major]

Now back to our regular schedueled program of The "Catching Away" or as some call it.....THE RAPTURE.

Those who reject the Rapture as the next even on God's prophetic time table have completly overlooked the BEMA SEAT OF CHRIST.

Romans 14:10.........
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. "

That event takes place immediatly following the removal of the church out of this world and takeing the believers to heaven or "CATCHING AWAY".

That is not an opinion but a Biblical fact.

1).
Luke 14:14..........
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

That tells us that reward is associated with the resurrection. Since according to 1 Thess. 4:13-17...............
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.".....................

the resurrection is an intragal part of the process and REWARD must be part of that process as we see recorded in the Scriptures.

2).
When the Lord returns to the earth at His Second Coming, with His bride (Church) to reign, the bride is seen to be ALREADY REWARDED.

Revelation 19:8................
"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Notice that the "righteousness of the saints" is plural and CAN NOT refer to the imparted righteousness of Christ which is the believer's portion, but the righteousness which survived examination and have become the basis of reward.

3).
In 1 Corth. 4:5............
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

2 Timothy 4:8.............
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Revelation 22:12.........
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be".

By those verses we see clearly that the reward is associated with "THAT DAY", that is obviousely the DAY in which Christ comes for HIs own which can only be the "CATCHING AWAY of THE SAINTS" or the Rapture.

That being the case, and there it is right in front of all who want to see it.....it must be observed that the rewarding of the church (Believers) must take place between the Catching Away and the return of Christ to the earth.

Now lets go a little deeper in our study!

As I just said, the TIMING of the marriage of the Bride (Church) to the Bridegroom (Christ) is revealed in the Scripture as coming between the Rapture of the church and the Second Coming at Armageddon. Prior to the Rapture the church is still looking forward to this event.

According to Revelation 19:7.............................
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."................................................................................................................................................

this marriage has taken place at the time of the Second Coming because the declaration is ....
"THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB IS COME". In the Greek that is was written, the aorist tense is elthen,
which can only be translated one way and that is......."IS COME". That is important because it show us that the marriage HAS BEEN CONSUMATED.

The marriage is seen to follow the events of the "Bema Seat of Christ" inasmuch as when the wife (Church) appears in the "righteousness of the saints", (Rev. 19:8), whcih can only refer to those things that have been accepted at the Bema Seat of Christ.

What does all that mean????????????

Actually it is very simple.........THE MARRIAGE OF THE BRIDE (CHURCH) AND BRIDEGROOM (CHRIST)
MUST BE PLACED IN TIME BETWEEN THE BEMA SEAT OF CHRIST AND THE SECOND COMING.

God blees you as you consider these Scriptures.

 

[Major]

THis is a very long post and you will not hurt my feelings if you do not read it all. I probably would not read it all either, but I got onto a roll and lost track of time and space.

I offer no apology for the length, just ignore it if it is too long.

Now once the CATCHING AWAY has been Biblicaly presented, it is of course anyones freedom of choice to reject the revelation of God's Word.

I for one believe that Daniel was correct in 12:4 of his book..............

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

Many have taken that verse to mean that as a people, we will grow more intellegant and smarter because they look around today and see TV's, cars, computers, phones and see that as growing more KNOWLEDGABLE.

BUT.......when one carfully studies the original wording, it is clear that it can mean that "men will be looking for more information on the coming of Messiah as the time of His coming approaches".

The conversation on this website alone seems to confirm that idea IMHO.

Now, some will argue that there is no Biblical referrance of the Tribulation Period. Lets see if we can help out that situation:

Deuteronomy 4:30-31

King James Version (KJV)

"When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them."

Isaiah 2:19

King James Version (KJV)

"And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

Isaiah 24:1
King James Version
Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

Isaiah 24:3

King James Version (KJV)

The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.

Isaiah 24:6

King James Version (KJV)

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Jeremiah 30:7

King James Version (KJV)

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

Daniel 12:1

King James Version (KJV)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Joel 1:15

King James Version (KJV)

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Zephaniah 1:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness.

Matthew 24:21-22

King James Version (KJV)

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So.........there are a FEW of the many that describe a TRIBULATION Period.

What then is the SOURCE of this Tribulation???????????/This my friends is the time of GOD"S WRATH.

Isaiah 24:1

King James Version

Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

Joel 1:15

King James Version (KJV)

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Zephaniah 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Revelation 14:7

King James Version (KJV)

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

From these Scriptures we clearly see and it can not be denied that this time frame is the time when GOD"S wrath and judgment falls upon the earth. This is not the WRATH of men, nor from Satan EXCEPT as God uses these agencies for the execution of His plan. IT IS TRIBULATION FROM GOD!.
WHY???????????

The great purpose of this Tribulation Period is to prepare the nation of Israel for her Messiah. The Tribulation is maily and primarily Jewish, but as Dr. Billy Graham said, IT WILL BE A WORLD WIDE TIME OF TROUBLE.

God's plan is to convert the Jews who will enter into the blessings of the Kingdom and there by fufill the Abrahamic Covenant.

It is also in God's plan that Gentiles will go into the Kingdom as well. They will be saved by the preaching of the 144,000 Jewish virgin men and will help to populate the earth.

Revelation 7:9

King James Version (KJV)

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

Matthew 25:31-46

King James Version (KJV)

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
DOES THE CHURCH GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION???????

Speaking to the church in Philidelphia Jesus said..........

Revelation 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

WHAT IS THE TIME OF THE TRIBULATION??????

Some will argue that there is NO time of a SEVEN Year Tribulation period.

IT IS THERE IF WE HAVE THE EYES TO SEE AND HEART TO KNOW.

Daniel 9:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now it is agreed that the words SEVEN YEARS are not there or anywhere else. But now consider this fact.........
The LITERAL word TRINITY is not found in the Scripture neither is the word RAPTURE.

So what is the explination of these things. They come under the educational process and teaching of what is called........."IMPLIED TRUTH". In other words, the thought, the implications or theology is present although the exact WORD is not present.

Once that is processed and grasped then the SEVEN WEEKS are clearly seen in the text posted above.

The Jews have a word which means "SEVEN" and that word is "shabua".

So.....when anyone staes that there is no SEVEN YEAR Tribulation, you can know that the word SEVEN IS LITERALLY in the Scriptures.

The Jews have a SEVEN of YEARS and also a SEVEN of DAYS. It is Biblical "WEEK" of years .

So the text says that there will be a set of SEVENTY SEVENS. Seven what?????

CONTEXT:

Daniel 9:1-3

New King James Version In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the lineage of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the LORD through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes.

Clearly we see that Daniels focus and context was on YEARS.

Then Daniel knew that the very length of the Babylonian captivity had been based of the Jews violation of the Sabbatic YEAR (2 Chron. 36:21).

The Jews had been removed from the land because they had broken the law of the Sabbath for 490 YEARS.

That means SEVENTY SEVENS of YEARS. That tells us that the SEVENTY SEVENS can be nothing other than YEARS.

Now is this just something unique to Daniel???????????/ Well lets see....................

Genesis 29:27

New King James Version (NKJV)

Fulfill her week, and we will give you this one also for the service which you will serve with me still another seven years.”

Well my goodness. Isn't that interesting????

Since the text posted from Daniel 9 mentions a Jewish period of persecution and since that perscution begins in the MIDDLE of the SEVENTIETH WEEK and goes on to the "end" of the WEEK, the period can not be anything other than THREE AND ONE HALF YEARS of the total of SEVEN YEARS of Tribulation.

 

[mistmann]

Now back to our regular schedueled program of The "Catching Away" or as some call it.....THE RAPTURE.

Those who reject the Rapture as the next even on God's prophetic time table have completly overlooked the BEMA SEAT OF CHRIST.

Romans 14:10.........
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. "

That event takes place immediatly following the removal of the church out of this world and takeing the believers to heaven or "CATCHING AWAY".

That is not an opinion but a Biblical fact.

1).
Luke 14:14..........
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

That tells us that reward is associated with the resurrection. Since according to 1 Thess. 4:13-17...............
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.".....................

the resurrection is an intragal part of the process and REWARD must be part of that process as we see recorded in the Scriptures.

2).
When the Lord returns to the earth at His Second Coming, with His bride (Church) to reign, the bride is seen to be ALREADY REWARDED.

Revelation 19:8................
"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Notice that the "righteousness of the saints" is plural and CAN NOT refer to the imparted righteousness of Christ which is the believer's portion, but the righteousness which survived examination and have become the basis of reward.

3).
In 1 Corth. 4:5............
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

2 Timothy 4:8.............
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Revelation 22:12.........
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be".

By those verses we see clearly that the reward is associated with "THAT DAY", that is obviousely the DAY in which Christ comes for HIs own which can only be the "CATCHING AWAY of THE SAINTS" or the Rapture.

That being the case, and there it is right in front of all who want to see it.....it must be observed that the rewarding of the church (Believers) must take place between the Catching Away and the return of Christ to the earth.

Now lets go a little deeper in our study!

As I just said, the TIMING of the marriage of the Bride (Church) to the Bridegroom (Christ) is revealed in the Scripture as coming between the Rapture of the church and the Second Coming at Armageddon. Prior to the Rapture the church is still looking forward to this event.

According to Revelation 19:7.............................
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."................................................................................................................................................

this marriage has taken place at the time of the Second Coming because the declaration is ....
"THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB IS COME". In the Greek that is was written, the aorist tense is elthen,
which can only be translated one way and that is......."IS COME". That is important because it show us that the marriage HAS BEEN CONSUMATED.

The marriage is seen to follow the events of the "Bema Seat of Christ" inasmuch as when the wife (Church) appears in the "righteousness of the saints", (Rev. 19:8), whcih can only refer to those things that have been accepted at the Bema Seat of Christ.

What does all that mean????????????

Actually it is very simple.........THE MARRIAGE OF THE BRIDE (CHURCH) AND BRIDEGROOM (CHRIST)
MUST BE PLACED IN TIME BETWEEN THE BEMA SEAT OF CHRIST AND THE SECOND COMING.

God blees you as you consider these Scriptures.

Just two observations to make here. Firstly we must be careful in our understanding of the GREEK word "bema". It is Greek for "judgement seat" - ANY judgement seat. It is used of the judgement seat of Pilate, The judgment seats before which the Apostles were being forever dragged by the Jews, etc. The "bema" seat of Christ is not a reference to a special judgement seat for believers. It is simply trhe Greek word for "judgement seat" The judgement seat of Christ will judge ALL of the Earth, good and bad.

2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat (Greek "bema") of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The second observation is why are you saying Christ will BRING His Bride BACK to Earth? This is not what Christ Himself declared He would do. Quite the opposite actually. After the Last Supper Jesus declared to His disciples:-

jesusJohn 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions (places to dwell): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is echoed in Isaiah:
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

And VERY clearly in 2 Peter:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

And again very clearly in Revelation itself:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

The word of God does not say Jesus will return with His bride to rule over the Earth. It Says He will TAKE (rapture) His bride FROM the Earth and Take us AWAY to a NEW Earth under a NEW Heaven and THIS Earth shall be totally destroyed and cease to exist shortly after His coming. That His COMING (the day of the Lord) signals the end of THIS Earth and all left in it.

I am not sure why you are declaring something that is contrary to what the Bible so clearly and emphatically says.

 

[mistmann]

Since the text posted from Daniel 9 mentions a Jewish period of persecution and since that perscution begins in the MIDDLE of the SEVENTIETH WEEK and goes on to the "end" of the WEEK, the period can not be anything other than THREE AND ONE HALF YEARS of the total of SEVEN YEARS of Tribulation.

Major,

I do not want to enter yet another lengthy debate with you on this matter so I will just make this observation that may help others to address these issues with you if they wish.

We have already discussed at length before, that Daniel 12:7 declares the END of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 to be when the scattering of the Holy people among the Heathen nations in accordance with the final sevenfold increasing curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 is accomplished which was the other thing Gabriel was clarifying with Daniel (meaning that the prophecies have nothing to do with the second coming of Christ, only the FIRST coming). This scattering is what the Jews refer to in their HISTORY as the "diaspora" (Greek for "scattering").

But the other point that somebody might want clarified is why you are claiming that a passage that speaks of the confirming of a 7 year COVENANT (a document of AGREEMENT) is a reference to a period of Tribulation? At best it can only refer to THREE AND A HALF years of tribulation not seven.

But bearing in mind Dan 12:7 I would highly recommend those here to check out the history of one Gessius Florus the 13th and LAST Roman Procurator of Jerusalem appointed in 64AD. He only lasted in the position about three and a half years because he so incited the Jews that three and a half years into his appointment they stopped the Daily Sacrifices on behalf of the Roman Emperor which were offered under a treaty they had with Rome that allowed them to NOT erect statues of the emperor in Israel and especially in the Temple ( forced Emperor worship was a normal part of Roman occupation EXCEPT in Israel because of the treaty). This caused Gessius Florus to rip up the treaty which lead then to the Jewish Revolt that began circa 66AD and ended at Masada in 74AD with the fall of the LAST city and stronghold and high place of Israel and the scattering of Israel among the Heathen nations (see how the curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 end). Incidently exactly 490 Jewish years after the completion of the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

And at that I will leave it for people to investigate and ponder these things for themselves for I doubt there will be much point in us two discussing it Major given the result of previous attempts. However if anybody here does want to discuss it more with me probably best to start a new thread than clutter this one.

 

[Agricola]

Trying to fit end time prophecies into the pre mellinium around 70ad is doomed from the start, all of your posts point to the lengths you have to go to explain why it is so, not only that you have to also declare that the prophecy events in revelation and Daniel are no longer sequential but has to be random in order to fit into the theory, you then also have to deal with knock on effects, call it a butterfly effect if you like, prophecy in Bible isnot just a vauge few throw away lines, although we have information withheld, there is still plenty to work with with many small tantilising glimpses and detail, such as the description of the Anti-Christ.

One of these expamples of desperatly trying to make things fit is shown in your comments on Gessius Florus, Are you suggesting that Gessius Florus is the anti-christ? All my history books have Florus in charge from 64-66 and he just seems to dissapear from records after the Revolt begins in 66. that is at most 1 day short of 3 years, no where near the magical 3 and half years you claim.

 

[Major]

Major,

I do not want to enter yet another lengthy debate with you on this matter so I will just make this observation that may help others to address these issues with you if they wish.

We have already discussed at length before, that Daniel 12:7 declares the END of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 to be when the scattering of the Holy people among the Heathen nations in accordance with the final sevenfold increasing curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 is accomplished which was the other thing Gabriel was clarifying with Daniel (meaning that the prophecies have nothing to do with the second coming of Christ, only the FIRST coming). This scattering is what the Jews refer to in their HISTORY as the "diaspora" (Greek for "scattering").

But the other point that somebody might want clarified is why you are claiming that a passage that speaks of the confirming of a 7 year COVENANT (a document of AGREEMENT) is a reference to a period of Tribulation? At best it can only refer to THREE AND A HALF years of tribulation not seven.

But bearing in mind Dan 12:7 I would highly recommend those here to check out the history of one Gessius Florus the 13th and LAST Roman Procurator of Jerusalem appointed in 64AD. He only lasted in the position about three and a half years because he so incited the Jews that three and a half years into his appointment they stopped the Daily Sacrifices on behalf of the Roman Emperor which were offered under a treaty they had with Rome that allowed them to NOT erect statues of the emperor in Israel and especially in the Temple ( forced Emperor worship was a normal part of Roman occupation EXCEPT in Israel because of the treaty). This caused Gessius Florus to rip up the treaty which lead then to the Jewish Revolt that began circa 66AD and ended at Masada in 74AD with the fall of the LAST city and stronghold and high place of Israel and the scattering of Israel among the Heathen nations (see how the curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 end). Incidently exactly 490 Jewish years after the completion of the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

And at that I will leave it for people to investigate and ponder these things for themselves for I doubt there will be much point in us two discussing it Major given the result of previous attempts. However if anybody here does want to discuss it more with me probably best to start a new thread than clutter this one.

Your idea that Gessius Florus the 13th and LAST Roman Procurator of Jerusalem would fit the time frame is actually very funny. It shows how hard you are having to work to make your theory fit. Since I have already established that there was NONE of the other Biblical events in view, darkness, earthquake and so on, your point is then mute plus as has just been said , he was not even there in 70 AD.

I just cannot understand how you are still focused on the SEVENTY WEEKS of Daniel. I thought we were clear on that. YOU reject it and I ACCEPT it.

Daniel 9:27 is clear TO ME....
And "HE" (antichrist) will confirm the COVENANT (peace accord) with many for ONE WEEK (7 YEARS) and in the middle of the WEEK (3 and 1/2 year mark or 1260 days or 42 months)) he shall cause the sacrifice to the oblation to cease.

Personally I do not know how that can be missed or misunderstood......but be that as it may, I believe it is time to move on as you have said and let others may their choices.

 

[Major]

Just two observations to make here. Firstly we must be careful in our understanding of the GREEK word "bema". It is Greek for "judgement seat" - ANY judgement seat. It is used of the judgement seat of Pilate, The judgment seats before which the Apostles were being forever dragged by the Jews, etc. The "bema" seat of Christ is not a reference to a special judgement seat for believers. It is simply trhe Greek word for "judgement seat" The judgement seat of Christ will judge ALL of the Earth, good and bad.

2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat (Greek "bema") of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The second observation is why are you saying Christ will BRING His Bride BACK to Earth? This is not what Christ Himself declared He would do. Quite the opposite actually. After the Last Supper Jesus declared to His disciples:-

jesusJohn 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions (places to dwell): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is echoed in Isaiah:
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

And VERY clearly in 2 Peter:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

And again very clearly in Revelation itself:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

The word of God does not say Jesus will return with His bride to rule over the Earth. It Says He will TAKE (rapture) His bride FROM the Earth and Take us AWAY to a NEW Earth under a NEW Heaven and THIS Earth shall be totally destroyed and cease to exist shortly after His coming. That His COMING (the day of the Lord) signals the end of THIS Earth and all left in it.

I am not sure why you are declaring something that is contrary to what the Bible so clearly and emphatically says.

Thanks Misty for another question.!!!! THIS IS WONDERFUL and I thank God for the oportunity.

I do not know if you did it on purpose or just do not understand but you skipped about 1000 years to try and make you formula FIT what the Word of God says. You went all the way to the end of the 1000 year rule to try and establish the Bride coming for her husband in Rev. chapter 21:1.

What do you say about us going to the actual MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB as recorded in Revelation 19:7-10..........
Revelation 19:7-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

In the Rapture, we will be Caught Up; at the BEMA Judgment Seat of Christ, we will be rewarded; and at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, we will be Given the special place God has for us! Praise be unto the Lord Jesus and may He come soon!

The church is seen as the Bride of Christ in Ephesians 5. The weddin g is announced in the text I posted and then Christ comes with His saints to abide on the earth with those who have accepted Him after He destroys the wicked at Armageddon.

Then to confirm that and make it even more acceptable we see in Rev. 19:14

"AND THE ARMIES WHICH WERE N HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN WHITE AND CLEAN".

That is a pocture of ALL believers of all ages gathered together into one group coming with Christ NOT to do anything but witness what He and He alone is about to do.

As CHILI said.............."Gives me God bumps"!

 

[Major]

Just two observations to make here. Firstly we must be careful in our understanding of the GREEK word "bema". It is Greek for "judgement seat" - ANY judgement seat. It is used of the judgement seat of Pilate, The judgment seats before which the Apostles were being forever dragged by the Jews, etc. The "bema" seat of Christ is not a reference to a special judgement seat for believers. It is simply trhe Greek word for "judgement seat" The judgement seat of Christ will judge ALL of the Earth, good and bad.

2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat (Greek "bema") of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The second observation is why are you saying Christ will BRING His Bride BACK to Earth? This is not what Christ Himself declared He would do. Quite the opposite actually. After the Last Supper Jesus declared to His disciples:-

jesusJohn 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions (places to dwell): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is echoed in Isaiah:
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

And VERY clearly in 2 Peter:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

And again very clearly in Revelation itself:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

The word of God does not say Jesus will return with His bride to rule over the Earth. It Says He will TAKE (rapture) His bride FROM the Earth and Take us AWAY to a NEW Earth under a NEW Heaven and THIS Earth shall be totally destroyed and cease to exist shortly after His coming. That His COMING (the day of the Lord) signals the end of THIS Earth and all left in it.

I am not sure why you are declaring something that is contrary to what the Bible so clearly and emphatically says.

NOPE....I am afraid you are Biblically incorrect again my dear friend.
But thanks for the ooportunity to speak with you again. This is really GREAT!

Rev. 19 is the picture of the marriage ceremony. I am not sure how you could have missed it.

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
and his bride has made herself ready
For the wedding of the Lamb has come
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

The BEMA SEAT was a raised platform whhich the ruling judge at Greek games stood to observe and rule and GIVE OUT THE AWARDS EARNED. That was what the context was in Pauls mind when he spoke of the "Bema Seat for BELIEVERS"/
2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat (Greek "bema") of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

WE know it is for believers because Paul was writing to BELIEVERS in Corinth.

Same chapter verse #6.........."Therefore we are always confident knowing that while we are home in the body we are absent from the Lord for we walk bt faith not by sight we are there fore confident I say and willing rather to be absent from the body AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD. Wherefore we labour that whether present or absent we may be accepted of Him"

That is the CONTEXT and it without question confirms that Paul was speaking to Believers in verse #10 when hw says...........
"For we (Believers) must appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one (ALL BELIEVERS) may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad(RECEIVING AWARDS).

The NON-Believers will be judged at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.

Revelation 20:11-15
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".
Although the word "throne" appears some thirty times in the Book of Revelation, this is a reference to a throne different than any previously mentioned, and accordingly, it is called a "Great White Throne." Unlike the previous thrones on Earth or Heaven, it is pictured as being in space and occupied by the Lord Jesus himself. (1)

John 5:22-23
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him".

Romans 2:16
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Revelation 3:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

The Great White Throne Judgment is NOT for Christians. It is only for those who refuse to accept the Lord Jesus Christ in this earthly life. To avoid this judgment, all one must do is repent and believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and invite Him to become his or her Lord and Savior.

Romans 8:1
"[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Those who refuse the free gift wrought by the Lamb of God, will find that Hebrews 10:31
"[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

As the text (Revelation 20:12-15) makes plain, The Great White Throne is the final judgment. As the righteous have already been judged, this judgment relates to the wicked. It is the final resurrection in contrast to the first resurrection, which had to do with the righteous.

Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt."

John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Acts 24:15
"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

 

[mistmann]

Trying to fit end time prophecies into the pre mellinium around 70ad is doomed from the start, all of your posts point to the lengths you have to go to explain why it is so, not only that you have to also declare that the prophecy events in revelation and Daniel are no longer sequential but has to be random in order to fit into the theory, you then also have to deal with knock on effects, call it a butterfly effect if you like, prophecy in Bible isnot just a vauge few throw away lines, although we have information withheld, there is still plenty to work with with many small tantilising glimpses and detail, such as the description of the Anti-Christ.

One of these expamples of desperatly trying to make things fit is shown in your comments on Gessius Florus, Are you suggesting that Gessius Florus is the anti-christ? All my history books have Florus in charge from 64-66 and he just seems to dissapear from records after the Revolt begins in 66. that is at most 1 day short of 3 years, no where near the magical 3 and half years you claim.

The point you are still missing is that Dan 12:7 emphatically and clearly renders null and void ANY and EVERY arguement that tries to connect the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 to the second coming of Christ, or indeed ANY event after 74AD when Israel was totally destroyed and the people scattered among the nations.

Gessius Florus was not the antiChrist, he was the last procurator of Rome appointed to Jerusalem. But the covenant that allowed the Jews to not worship the emperor or desecrate their temple with his image, was not one Gessius would have the authority to make. He was the cause of its DEMISE by inciting the Jews to stop the daily sacrifice that ultimately led to destruction of the temple three and a half years later in 70 AD. The Covenant itself was probably confirmed at the grand opening of the newly refurbished Temple (curtesy of Herod - posthumously) in 63AD, 7 years before its destruction in 70AD. And then after the abomination that causes destruction Daniel prophesied was erected in 70AD it was a mere "time, times, and an half" later in 74AD with the fall of the LAST Jewish city of Masada, that it was accomplished to scatter the power of the Holy people which Dan 12:7 declares marks the END of ALL the things prophesied by Daniel 9-12.

It is entirely up to you whether you believe it or not but these facts of reality will not be changed by your disbelief of them.