"The Catching Away"

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Your idea that Gessius Florus the 13th and LAST Roman Procurator of Jerusalem would fit the time frame is actually very funny. It shows how hard you are having to work to make your theory fit. Since I have already established that there was NONE of the other Biblical events in view, darkness, earthquake and so on, your point is then mute plus as has just been said , he was not even there in 70 AD.

I just cannot understand how you are still focused on the SEVENTY WEEKS of Daniel. I thought we were clear on that. YOU reject it and I ACCEPT it.

Daniel 9:27 is clear TO ME....
And "HE" (antichrist) will confirm the COVENANT (peace accord) with many for ONE WEEK (7 YEARS) and in the middle of the WEEK (3 and 1/2 year mark or 1260 days or 42 months)) he shall cause the sacrifice to the oblation to cease.

Personally I do not know how that can be missed or misunderstood......but be that as it may, I believe it is time to move on as you have said and let others may their choices.

Rather than repeat it all I'll direct you to my response to Agricola just posted. It answers the points you raise also.
 
NOPE....I am afraid you are Biblically incorrect again my dear friend.
But thanks for the ooportunity to speak with you again. This is really GREAT!

Rev. 19 is the picture of the marriage ceremony. I am not sure how you could have missed it.

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
and his bride has made herself ready
For the wedding of the Lamb has come
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

The BEMA SEAT was a raised platform whhich the ruling judge at Greek games stood to observe and rule and GIVE OUT THE AWARDS EARNED. That was what the context was in Pauls mind when he spoke of the "Bema Seat for BELIEVERS"/
2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat (Greek "bema") of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

WE know it is for believers because Paul was writing to BELIEVERS in Corinth.

Same chapter verse #6.........."Therefore we are always confident knowing that while we are home in the body we are absent from the Lord for we walk bt faith not by sight we are there fore confident I say and willing rather to be absent from the body AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD. Wherefore we labour that whether present or absent we may be accepted of Him"

That is the CONTEXT and it without question confirms that Paul was speaking to Believers in verse #10 when hw says...........
"For we (Believers) must appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one (ALL BELIEVERS) may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad(RECEIVING AWARDS).

The NON-Believers will be judged at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.

Revelation 20:11-15
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".
Although the word "throne" appears some thirty times in the Book of Revelation, this is a reference to a throne different than any previously mentioned, and accordingly, it is called a "Great White Throne." Unlike the previous thrones on Earth or Heaven, it is pictured as being in space and occupied by the Lord Jesus himself. (1)

John 5:22-23
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him".

Romans 2:16
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Revelation 3:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

The Great White Throne Judgment is NOT for Christians. It is only for those who refuse to accept the Lord Jesus Christ in this earthly life. To avoid this judgment, all one must do is repent and believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and invite Him to become his or her Lord and Savior.

Romans 8:1
"[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Those who refuse the free gift wrought by the Lamb of God, will find that Hebrews 10:31
"[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

As the text (Revelation 20:12-15) makes plain, The Great White Throne is the final judgment. As the righteous have already been judged, this judgment relates to the wicked. It is the final resurrection in contrast to the first resurrection, which had to do with the righteous.

Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt."

John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Acts 24:15
"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

As to the "bema" thing you will have to take that up with the original WRITERS of the NT who used the exact SAME Greek word whether it was the judgement seat of Christ, or of Pilate, or the Sanhedrin, or any other judgement seat throughout the known world. "Bema" is Greek for "judgement seat" regardless of who is sitting on it.

Those in the book of life have clearly been prejudged. Actually by themselves for they are the repentent who readily admit their own guilt and received pardon by the blood of the Lamb.

BUT the judgement of Christ is not like the judges of Earth who claim innocent until proven guilty for all have sinned. The Judgement is of those who are to be saved and redeemed among those who are perishing unless redeemed.
 
The point you are still missing is that Dan 12:7 emphatically and clearly renders null and void ANY and EVERY arguement that tries to connect the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 to the second coming of Christ, or indeed ANY event after 74AD when Israel was totally destroyed and the people scattered among the nations.

Gessius Florus was not the antiChrist, he was the last procurator of Rome appointed to Jerusalem. But the covenant that allowed the Jews to not worship the emperor or desecrate their temple with his image, was not one Gessius would have the authority to make. He was the cause of its DEMISE by inciting the Jews to stop the daily sacrifice that ultimately led to destruction of the temple three and a half years later in 70 AD. The Covenant itself was probably confirmed at the grand opening of the newly refurbished Temple (curtesy of Herod - posthumously) in 63AD, 7 years before its destruction in 70AD. And then after the abomination that causes destruction Daniel prophesied was erected in 70AD it was a mere "time, times, and an half" later in 74AD with the fall of the LAST Jewish city of Masada, that it was accomplished to scatter the power of the Holy people which Dan 12:7 declares marks the END of ALL the things prophesied by Daniel 9-12.

It is entirely up to you whether you believe it or not but these facts of reality will not be changed by your disbelief of them.

So who was the anti-christ? he is missing from your scenario. The anti-christ has to be present from start to final destruction. It can not be the emperor, as Nero commited suicide in June 68, hardly the actions of The anti-christ he does not fit the description of the anti-christ anyway, then in 69 we see the year of the 4 emperors, Galba, Otho, Vitellius and finally Vespasian, who then saw the final destrcution, so we have 5 emperors covering the time frame you claim is the 7 years Daniel is refering to, which just adds more confusion and needs more explinations from yourslef as to how you are making this all fit an where the anti-christ comes in.

It is entirely up to you whether you believe it or not but these facts of reality will not be changed by your disbelief of them.
It is this arrogance which continually tarnishes your reputation and how people see you.
 
As to the "bema" thing you will have to take that up with the original WRITERS of the NT who used the exact SAME Greek word whether it was the judgement seat of Christ, or of Pilate, or the Sanhedrin, or any other judgement seat throughout the known world. "Bema" is Greek for "judgement seat" regardless of who is sitting on it.

Those in the book of life have clearly been prejudged. Actually by themselves for they are the repentent who readily admit their own guilt and received pardon by the blood of the Lamb.

BUT the judgement of Christ is not like the judges of Earth who claim innocent until proven guilty for all have sinned. The Judgement is of those who are to be saved and redeemed among those who are perishing unless redeemed.

Paul's use of the word BEMA suggests dignity, honor, authority and reward NOT CONDEMNATION.

Believers are not condemned.........

Romans 8:1
"There is therefore NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus".
ONLY Christians will appear at the "Judgment Seat of Christ" and the judgment has nothing to do with salvation. IT is the process of receiving any rewards earned in this life after we came to Christ.
IT is after the Rapture and before Armageddon.

The judgment seat of Christ IS NOT.......(YOUR QUOTE) "The Judgement is of those who are to be saved". If you are referring to the people who come to Christ today and unto the Rapture then YES I agree. But NOT AFTER THE RAPTURE.

Luke 14:14
"Thou shalt be blessed for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just".

Since the resurrection of believers takes place at the Rapture, then it MUST be that the reward program is part of and associated with the resurrection of saints.

2 Tim. 4:8
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown od righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge shall give me at that day".

Rev. 22:12
"Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according to his work shall be".

Now you bring up the" Book of Life". Wonderful! You are blessed my friend.

Rev. 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.This is the second death.
15) And whoseovever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Since you brought this up, lets deal with it...shall we?

Rev. 20:12-15 is in fact THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDMENT.

Rev. 20:11
"And I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE.................."

Now to properly explain this one must know the correct CONTEXT. So lets look at .................

Rev. 20:5
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished. This is the second resurrection."

We are told clearly that there aree to be TWO resurrections seperated by 1000 years. The first resurrection will be the RESURRECTION UNTO LIFE and it includes..........................

1). All of those dead in Christ. They were Raptured (CAUGHT AWAY).
2). The Tribulation saints who came to Christ AFTER the Rapture onto Armageddon.
3) ANy believer who may die in the millennial period. (Isaiah 65:20).

BUT.......the lost (the rest of the dead) are not raised for another 1000 years......that is, their disembodied spirits are kept in the torments side of Sheol/Hades, awaiting the Resurrection Unto Death where in they are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

Now with that as the basis for CONTEXT and understanding we can go back to verses 14-15 and correctly consider the BOOK OF LIFE.

The Book of Life is the set of names of those who will live with God forever in heaven. It is the roll of those who are saved. This Book of Life is also mentioned in Revelation 3:5; 20:12; and Philippians 4:3. The same book is also called the Lamb’s Book of Life because it contains the names of those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus (Revelation 13:8; 21:27).

The Great White Throne Judgment described in Revelation 20:11-15 is a judgment for unbelievers. That passage makes it clear that no one at that judgment has his name in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:12-14). Since their names are not in the Book of Life, their fate is sealed, their punishment is sure. The LOST who have both previousley been spiritually and physically dead are made alive at the Second Resurrection. They are given resurrection bodies and brought into the presence of the Lord Jesus for this judgment.

NOW remember.......THEY DIED IN THEIR SINS! Nothing has changed that fact. They made their irrevocable choice while alive on this earth. THAT CAN NOT BE CHANGED.

To believe that......" The Judgement is of those who are to be saved and redeemed" (Your quote) is therefore incorrect as all can now see that this event is for UNBELIEVERS.
So then....... will the lost man get a fair trial here at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT????

YES!!!!! Remember what the Word of God said in Rev. 20:12...................."And another book was opened which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS".

That means someone is observing and keeping a RECORD of the things we do in this body. When that record is read back to unbeliever it will not sound to good to him. What will be missing during this interview/judgment IS THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. Since there is not blood on the lost man then his sin IS NOT FORGIVEN AND HE IS STILL IN HIS SIN>

Therefore God has only one chopice my friends.................."Depart for me ye who work iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU".

That come to fullfilment then in verse #15...............
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".
 
.... I do not know if you did it on purpose or just do not understand but you skipped about 1000 years to try and make you formula FIT what the Word of God says. You went all the way to the end of the 1000 year rule to try and establish the Bride coming for her husband in Rev. chapter 21:1.

What do you say about us going to the actual MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB as recorded in Revelation 19:7-10..........
Revelation 19:7-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

In the Rapture, we will be Caught Up; at the BEMA Judgment Seat of Christ, we will be rewarded; and at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, we will be Given the special place God has for us! Praise be unto the Lord Jesus and may He come soon!

The church is seen as the Bride of Christ in Ephesians 5. The weddin g is announced in the text I posted and then Christ comes with His saints to abide on the earth with those who have accepted Him after He destroys the wicked at Armageddon.

Then to confirm that and make it even more acceptable we see in Rev. 19:14

"AND THE ARMIES WHICH WERE N HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN WHITE AND CLEAN".

That is a pocture of ALL believers of all ages gathered together into one group coming with Christ NOT to do anything but witness what He and He alone is about to do.

As CHILI said.............."Gives me God bumps"!

Where do I begin???

The Bible declares that the 1,000 years occurs BEFORE Christ returns not after . ONLY those beheaded for Christ are raised to life before the 1,000 years (the first resurecction}. The REST of the dead, which can only mean EVERYBODY who was not in the limited first resurrection are not raised unitl AFTER the 1,000 years. You say after Armageddon Christ will return and reign on the Earth and yet Revelation tells us clearly Satan does not gather the nations to battle against Israel at Armageddon until AFTER He is released at the END of the 1,000 years.

Have you not believed the scriptures that declare that when Christ returns as a thief in the night THIS Earth shall cease to exist? Christ cannot come back a third time as the Earth won't be here.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
earth

Have you not believed even Jesus Himself when He declared that He returns to take His bride to the NEW Earth He has gone to prepare?

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions (places to dwell): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Remember that when Jesus returns He will have ALREADY prepared the NEW Earth for His bride. The one John sees the New Jerusalem descending on. John does not see it descending on THIS Earth. Indeed it won't even FIT on this Earth.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
We are not going to get anywhere if you are going to simply ignore any scripture that disproves what you are saying.

As to the wedding supper of the Lamb what makes you think it is going to be on THIS Earth??

As to the Great White Throne-come-judgment-seat notice it says EVERY MAN shall be judged, not every non-believer. But ask yourself if salvation comes ONLY by acceptance and obedience to Christ and ALL whose names are written in the Book of life are saved, then the Book of Life contains only the names of those who accept Christ as their saviour.

If no believer appears before the Great White Throne to be judged why then is the Book of life opened and those present judged from what is WRITTEN in it? Remember the rapture of ALL who are in Christ can only occur AFTER the 1,000 years. To declare otherwise is to contradict Rev 20 which says only those beheaded for Christ because they would not accept the mark of the Beast or worship him are raised before the 1,000 and NOBODY ELSE.

If there are no believers before the Great White Throne (which is still a seat) from which Christ JUDGES then there would be nothing written in the Book of Life by which to judge those present. And again it does not say that all who appeared before the Great White Throne were thrown into the Lake of Fire (which would be the case if they are ALL non-believers) but only those whose names were NOT found in the Book of Life. Which strongly implies there were those there whose names WERE in the Book of Life. In other words BELIEVERS (for there is no other way to get your name in there).

But as I said we are not going to get anywhere fast if you are simply going to ignore any scripture that clearly contradicts your arguments. Our claims or declarations must render every single part of the Bible to be true. It is important to remember that the authority of scripture does not come from those who READ scripture. It comes from those who WROTE it. We must accord with what is WRITTEN, not how we choose to read it, interpret it or simply ignore it. We must remember also that authority does not extend BEYOND what has been written.
 
The point you are still missing is that Dan 12:7 emphatically and clearly renders null and void ANY and EVERY arguement that tries to connect the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 to the second coming of Christ, or indeed ANY event after 74AD when Israel was totally destroyed and the people scattered among the nations.

Gessius Florus was not the antiChrist, he was the last procurator of Rome appointed to Jerusalem. But the covenant that allowed the Jews to not worship the emperor or desecrate their temple with his image, was not one Gessius would have the authority to make. He was the cause of its DEMISE by inciting the Jews to stop the daily sacrifice that ultimately led to destruction of the temple three and a half years later in 70 AD. The Covenant itself was probably confirmed at the grand opening of the newly refurbished Temple (curtesy of Herod - posthumously) in 63AD, 7 years before its destruction in 70AD. And then after the abomination that causes destruction Daniel prophesied was erected in 70AD it was a mere "time, times, and an half" later in 74AD with the fall of the LAST Jewish city of Masada, that it was accomplished to scatter the power of the Holy people which Dan 12:7 declares marks the END of ALL the things prophesied by Daniel 9-12.

It is entirely up to you whether you believe it or not but these facts of reality will not be changed by your disbelief of them.

I think pretty much all of orothodox Christian scholars. teachers and commentators have rejected that opinion and you can add my name to that list as well.

That premise has been looked at, poured over and rejected many, many years ago my dear friend.

There was a massive scattering of Jews from Judea shortly before the war with the Romans which began in 66 AD. In 64 AD, Gessius Florus became procurator of Judea. Flavius Josephus writes that Florus "... did almost publicly proclaim it all the country over, that they had liberty given them to turn robbers, upon this condition, that he might go shares with them in the spoils.

Accordingly, this his greediness of gain was the occasion that entire toparchies were brought to desolation; and a great many of the people left their own country, and fled into foreign provinces" (Wars of the Jews, 2.14.2). Josephus also wrote "... the unhappy Jews, when they were not able to bear the devastations which the robbers made among them, were all under a necessity of leaving their own habitations, and of flying away, as hoping to dwell more easily anywhere else in the world among foreigners [than in their own country]" (Antiquities of the Jews, 20.11.1). Perhaps these events account for the "spoiling of your goods" that Paul mentioned in Hebrews 10:34.

As you can see, Gessius Florus caused ROBBERS to be the necessity of the people leaving their homes.

Yet the endurance of the Jews lasted till Gessius Florus was procurator. In his time the war broke out instead of a peace agreement.

Gessius Florus, who owed his governorship, as Josephus owed the success of his errand, to the favor of the "God-fearing" Poppaea, roused the people to fury by his pillage of the Temple, and the moderates could no longer hold the masses in check. The Zealots seized the fortress of Antonia, which overlooked the Temple, and, having become masters of the city, murdered the high priest Ananias. It was Eleazar, whom Josephus, describes as an intense nationalist among the priests, became the leader in counsel, and sealed the rebellion by persuading the people to discontinue the daily sacrifice offered in the name of the Roman Emperor.

You see...........the coming A/C will cause a peace agreement of 7 years between His Revived Roman Empire and the nation of Israel. That DID NOT HAPPEN under Gessius Florus at all so those historical facts remove him from any consideration of fulfilling Daniel's 70th week.
 
So who was the anti-christ? he is missing from your scenario. The anti-christ has to be present from start to final destruction. It can not be the emperor, as Nero commited suicide in June 68, hardly the actions of The anti-christ he does not fit the description of the anti-christ anyway, then in 69 we see the year of the 4 emperors, Galba, Otho, Vitellius and finally Vespasian, who then saw the final destrcution, so we have 5 emperors covering the time frame you claim is the 7 years Daniel is refering to, which just adds more confusion and needs more explinations from yourslef as to how you are making this all fit an where the anti-christ comes in.

It is this arrogance which continually tarnishes your reputation and how people see you.

Sorry but show me where in Daniel 9-12 does HE speak of the Antichrist??? I've done an electronic search on the entire OT and not come up with a single reference to the "Antichrist".

I find references in the NT but they tell me there are many antichrists not just one single antichrist.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

You are confusing what the "70th Week" theologists teach with what the Bible actually teaches. They are not the same.
But what is arrogant about observing a fact of reality? Does it not apply to me also? The facts of reality do not care what anybody believes about them. They just ARE
 
Paul's use of the word BEMA suggests dignity, honor, authority and reward NOT CONDEMNATION.

Believers are not condemned.........

Romans 8:1
"There is therefore NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus".
ONLY Christians will appear at the "Judgment Seat of Christ" and the judgment has nothing to do with salvation. IT is the process of receiving any rewards earned in this life after we came to Christ.
IT is after the Rapture and before Armageddon.

The judgment seat of Christ IS NOT.......(YOUR QUOTE) "The Judgement is of those who are to be saved". If you are referring to the people who come to Christ today and unto the Rapture then YES I agree. But NOT AFTER THE RAPTURE.

Luke 14:14
"Thou shalt be blessed for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just".

Since the resurrection of believers takes place at the Rapture, then it MUST be that the reward program is part of and associated with the resurrection of saints.

2 Tim. 4:8
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown od righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge shall give me at that day".

Rev. 22:12
"Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according to his work shall be".

Now you bring up the" Book of Life". Wonderful! You are blessed my friend.

Rev. 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.This is the second death.
15) And whoseovever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Since you brought this up, lets deal with it...shall we?

Rev. 20:12-15 is in fact THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDMENT.

Rev. 20:11
"And I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE.................."

Now to properly explain this one must know the correct CONTEXT. So lets look at .................

Rev. 20:5
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished. This is the second resurrection."

We are told clearly that there aree to be TWO resurrections seperated by 1000 years. The first resurrection will be the RESURRECTION UNTO LIFE and it includes..........................

1). All of those dead in Christ. They were Raptured (CAUGHT AWAY).
2). The Tribulation saints who came to Christ AFTER the Rapture onto Armageddon.
3) ANy believer who may die in the millennial period. (Isaiah 65:20).

BUT.......the lost (the rest of the dead) are not raised for another 1000 years......that is, their disembodied spirits are kept in the torments side of Sheol/Hades, awaiting the Resurrection Unto Death where in they are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

Now with that as the basis for CONTEXT and understanding we can go back to verses 14-15 and correctly consider the BOOK OF LIFE.

The Book of Life is the set of names of those who will live with God forever in heaven. It is the roll of those who are saved. This Book of Life is also mentioned in Revelation 3:5; 20:12; and Philippians 4:3. The same book is also called the Lamb’s Book of Life because it contains the names of those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus (Revelation 13:8; 21:27).

The Great White Throne Judgment described in Revelation 20:11-15 is a judgment for unbelievers. That passage makes it clear that no one at that judgment has his name in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:12-14). Since their names are not in the Book of Life, their fate is sealed, their punishment is sure. The LOST who have both previousley been spiritually and physically dead are made alive at the Second Resurrection. They are given resurrection bodies and brought into the presence of the Lord Jesus for this judgment.

NOW remember.......THEY DIED IN THEIR SINS! Nothing has changed that fact. They made their irrevocable choice while alive on this earth. THAT CAN NOT BE CHANGED.

To believe that......" The Judgement is of those who are to be saved and redeemed" (Your quote) is therefore incorrect as all can now see that this event is for UNBELIEVERS.
So then....... will the lost man get a fair trial here at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT????

YES!!!!! Remember what the Word of God said in Rev. 20:12...................."And another book was opened which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS".

That means someone is observing and keeping a RECORD of the things we do in this body. When that record is read back to unbeliever it will not sound to good to him. What will be missing during this interview/judgment IS THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. Since there is not blood on the lost man then his sin IS NOT FORGIVEN AND HE IS STILL IN HIS SIN>

Therefore God has only one chopice my friends.................."Depart for me ye who work iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU".

That come to fullfilment then in verse #15...............
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.[/U]

And with that I think I have given those here sufficient information and leads to judge for themselves what the LORD is telling them. I will not declare as true that which contradicts the word of God and it seems Major that you are not prepared to contradict the teachings of the "70th Week" theologists. I have long ago abandoned the idea that anything I say will change your thinking but that is your choice to make. I engage you in discussion mainly to help others discern these matters for themselves. I think that purpose has now been sufficiently achieved for this discussion and I see no benefit in pursuing it further. I am sure we will have many other discussions and while I may have abandoned the idea I have not entirely abandoned all hope. With the Lord all things are possible :).
 
Where do I begin???

The Bible declares that the 1,000 years occurs BEFORE Christ returns not after . ONLY those beheaded for Christ are raised to life before the 1,000 years (the first resurecction}. The REST of the dead, which can only mean EVERYBODY who was not in the limited first resurrection are not raised unitl AFTER the 1,000 years. You say after Armageddon Christ will return and reign on the Earth and yet Revelation tells us clearly Satan does not gather the nations to battle against Israel at Armageddon until AFTER He is released at the END of the 1,000 years.

Have you not believed the scriptures that declare that when Christ returns as a thief in the night THIS Earth shall cease to exist? Christ cannot come back a third time as the Earth won't be here.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
earth

Have you not believed even Jesus Himself when He declared that He returns to take His bride to the NEW Earth He has gone to prepare?

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions (places to dwell): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Remember that when Jesus returns He will have ALREADY prepared the NEW Earth for His bride. The one John sees the New Jerusalem descending on. John does not see it descending on THIS Earth. Indeed it won't even FIT on this Earth.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
We are not going to get anywhere if you are going to simply ignore any scripture that disproves what you are saying.

As to the wedding supper of the Lamb what makes you think it is going to be on THIS Earth??

As to the Great White Throne-come-judgment-seat notice it says EVERY MAN shall be judged, not every non-believer. But ask yourself if salvation comes ONLY by acceptance and obedience to Christ and ALL whose names are written in the Book of life are saved, then the Book of Life contains only the names of those who accept Christ as their saviour.

If no believer appears before the Great White Throne to be judged why then is the Book of life opened and those present judged from what is WRITTEN in it? Remember the rapture of ALL who are in Christ can only occur AFTER the 1,000 years. To declare otherwise is to contradict Rev 20 which says only those beheaded for Christ because they would not accept the mark of the Beast or worship him are raised before the 1,000 and NOBODY ELSE.

If there are no believers before the Great White Throne (which is still a seat) from which Christ JUDGES then there would be nothing written in the Book of Life by which to judge those present. And again it does not say that all who appeared before the Great White Throne were thrown into the Lake of Fire (which would be the case if they are ALL non-believers) but only those whose names were NOT found in the Book of Life. Which strongly implies there were those there whose names WERE in the Book of Life. In other words BELIEVERS (for there is no other way to get your name in there).

But as I said we are not going to get anywhere fast if you are simply going to ignore any scripture that clearly contradicts your arguments. Our claims or declarations must render every single part of the Bible to be true. It is important to remember that the authority of scripture does not come from those who READ scripture. It comes from those who WROTE it. We must accord with what is WRITTEN, not how we choose to read it, interpret it or simply ignore it. We must remember also that authority does not extend BEYOND what has been written.

Where do I begin is your thinking!!!!!!!

I suggest that we start with the Word of God and not the thoughts of men.

Your comment was...............
"The Bible declares that the 1,000 years occurs BEFORE Christ returns not after ."

INCORRECT!

  1. Before Christ's actual “visible” coming, He will remove His faithful from the earth. The faithful dead will also be raised to meet them in the air. This is the event which they call the rapture, A 7-year period of tribulation follows.

  2. With the removal of the faithful, the world will be free to “do it's own thing.” Sin will abound. Some believe that thousands of Jews will be converted to Christ during this period and begin to evangelize the world.

  3. A world leader will emerge who will promise peace, and at first seem to deliver. After 3 ½ years, though, “all hell will break loose,” literally, with Satan having his way on the earth by way of the Anti-Christ now ruling the globe. This second 3 ½ - year period is called the Great Tribulation. Some refer to the entire 7-year period as the “tribulation.”

  4. The armies of the earth will array themselves against the nation of Israel in the northern plain of Megiddo. This is known as the battle of Armegeddon. Most believe this will be a nuclear battle and that many cities of the earth will also be destroyed during this time. I do not know that to be the case, BUT I have no problem believing it.

  5. At the end of this period, Christ will return to Israel, set His foot on the mount of Olives, and begin to force His rule on the earth. Satan will be bound for 1,000 years during the period of Christ's reign on the earth (Rev. 20:1–6). Those righteous people martyred during the Great Tribulation will be raised and His faithful will rule the earth with Him from Jerusalem in a new temple, presumably rebuilt sometime before or during the 7-year “tribulation” period.

  6. After Christ's 1,000-year reign is over, Satan will be released from his prison and go forth to gather his forces for the final battle. Before this battle can get started, Christ will end it with a “bang.” The entire earth as we know will be destroyed by fire. God will create a new heaven and a new earth.
Revelation 20:1-4 which follows immediatly after the battle of Armageddon declares:
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years!!!!

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now here is where some get confused..............

Revelation 20:7-10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

AFTER the 1000 years, there will be a battle called GOG AND MAGOG. It is not the Second Coming of Christ as the Bible has already told us that Jesus came to the earth in chapter 19 and 20:1-4.
This is NOT the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38 as that battle came from the NORTH PARTS and the one in Rev. comes from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

Your comment was..........
Have you not believed the scriptures that declare that when Christ returns as a thief in the night THIS Earth shall cease to exist? Christ cannot come back a third time as the Earth won't be here.

Have you not comprehended that that verse was an example of how quickly His coming would be????

Once again your understanding flawed.

Funny you would argue against the Rapture but then turn and use a Rapture verse to support your opionion.

1 Thess. 5:2 is the verse you did not post.
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night".

Revelation 3:3,
"Remember therefore what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you".

Yes, Jesus is coming like a thief to unbelievers and even to believers that are not prepared. But to faithful obedient believers He is not coming as a thief but rather as the Lord of glory. The question is: are you expecting Him, and are you aware of what takes place just prior to His coming, or will He indeed come to you as a thief?

As for the Great WHite Throne Judgement and its being for believers.....I really can not be of any help to you in that area if you reject what the Scriptures say that I gave to you.
All I can do is encourage you to read and study and ask the Lord for a revalation to you.

You said..........
Remember the rapture of ALL who are in Christ can only occur AFTER the 1,000 years

INCORRECT and I have already spoken to this, no need to be redundant.

You said.............
As to the wedding supper of the Lamb what makes you think it is going to be on THIS Earth??

Already spoken to and there is no reason to do so again.

You said...............
Christ cannot come back a third time as the Earth won't be here.

Same as above!!!!!

You said............
The one John sees the New Jerusalem descending on. John does not see it descending on THIS Earth. Indeed it won't even FIT on this Earth.

INCORRECT. By believing that my friend you are telling God what He can or can not do. I know the diminsions that you speak of, but I also know the power and ability of God to do anything He so chosses to do. This one is a No-Brainer!.

You said..........
Have you not believed even Jesus Himself when He declared that He returns to take His bride to the NEW Earth He has gone to prepare?

Another of your OUT OF LINE questions. Absolutly no reason to make such a comment to another person WHOM YOU KNOW to be a believer. May the Lord bless you and remove the spirit of contention from you as will will as well.

You quoted John 14:2.........
John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions (places to dwell): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Now when we actually read that verse we do not see anything at all concerning your comment do we????
"when He declared that He returns to take His bride to the NEW Earth He has gone to prepare?"

That verse can refer to the Rapture which you reject so are you really sure it is the one you want to use.
It can also refer to the Second Coming.
It can also refer to encouragement of the dieing saint of God that at death, the Lord Jesus will come and receive him at death.

I encourage you to pray and think on your comments before making them as many read them and we all want to be sensitive to that fact.

Now to speak to your comment of "WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET ANY WHERE FAST".

Now that I agree with. All we are doing is counter punching. You are stateing your un-ortodox Christian theories and I am responding to them with orthodox Christian responces.

Personally I, have no problem with allowing you to have the last word since you seem intent on getting it. So then......it is yours and we can move on to bigger and better things because you will never ever change me from my theology of God's Word.

So..................the last word is yours my friend!
 
Mistmann , sorry but your version is too confusing for me , I just can not see it or understand it, I will just stick with what everyone else has concluded, which is outlined in Majors summary above. If you look at the world today you can see the world being set up to receive the anti-christ and his rule. The middle east is ripe for exploiting , especailly when the Jews are allowed to build temple again. Everything fits, where as your version is just confusing with too many loop holes and flights of fancy, I also draw line at conspiracy where you claim that the dark ages hid a mass ressurection , sorry but no. Dosnt matter how much scripture you throw at it, still does not work.
 
Sorry but show me where in Daniel 9-12 does HE speak of the Antichrist??? I've done an electronic search on the entire OT and not come up with a single reference to the "Antichrist".

I find references in the NT but they tell me there are many antichrists not just one single antichrist.

You are confusing what the "70th Week" theologists teach with what the Bible actually teaches. They are not the same.
But what is arrogant about observing a fact of reality? Does it not apply to me also? The facts of reality do not care what anybody believes about them. They just ARE

You have stated you reject the Rapture.

You have stated you reject the 70th week of Daniel.

You have stated that the 1000 year rule of Christ comes first then the Second Coming.

Now you seem to be saying that there is not a coming antichrist(I find references in the NT but they tell me there are many antichrists not just one single antichrist.")

You missed a lot of Sunday School classes my friend.

May the Lord bless you with understanding.
 
Mistmann , sorry but your version is too confusing for me , I just can not see it or understand it, I will just stick with what everyone else has concluded, which is outlined in Majors summary above. If you look at the world today you can see the world being set up to receive the anti-christ and his rule. The middle east is ripe for exploiting , especailly when the Jews are allowed to build temple again. Everything fits, where as your version is just confusing with too many loop holes and flights of fancy, I also draw line at conspiracy where you claim that the dark ages hid a mass ressurection , sorry but no. Dosnt matter how much scripture you throw at it, still does not work.

The Bible does not speak of a mass resurrection BEFORE the 1,000 years so naturally you wouldn't see it in the history books. It is only what is actually contained in Revelation and generally known that you will find. BUT as I say in the video I am just providing the facts of History and the FACTS of what Revelation actually says. It is for people to judge for themselves. All I am doing is trying to ensure it is a fully informed judgement. You can only point out the facts, you can't force people to believe them. I never tell people to believe me but to believe the facts of reality and history and the reality of what is actually written in the Bible.

But don't worry, I am just as confused at some of the very strange interpretations of scripture I have seen presented to me here. Jesus has told us to expect opposition to preaching the word of God so I do not take such opposition personally. I am not offended because people choose not to believe the things I say. They are the ones who have to face the consequences of THEIR decisions. I will only be judged by the decisions *I* make. That is why I am more concerned that what I believe is actually true. The beliefs we must question the most and test the hardest are ALWAYS our own. MY fate is sealed by the truth or otherwise of what I believe, not what you or anybody else believes. I am simply encouraging people to question the things they have been told to make sure that what they believe or are being asked to believe IS actually true or not. To do that they MUST take careful note of the reality about them and the actual meaning of the words the LORD has CHOSEN to WRITE.

What happens after that is between them and the Lord.
 
You have stated you reject the Rapture.

You have stated you reject the 70th week of Daniel.

You have stated that the 1000 year rule of Christ comes first then the Second Coming.

Now you seem to be saying that there is not a coming antichrist(I find references in the NT but they tell me there are many antichrists not just one single antichrist.")

You missed a lot of Sunday School classes my friend.

May the Lord bless you with understanding.

Nope have NEVER rejected the BIBLE'S account of the "rapture" (it does not actually use the term hence the quotation marks). Only YOUR version of it.

I accept the 70 WEEKS prophecy of Daniel which is in the Bible, I do not accept the 70TH WEEK theology that is NOT in the Bible. (Note the distinction between Seven-ty Weeks-s Prophecy and the Seven-tieth Week - singular - theologies.) The 70th Week theology mashes together two prophecies neither Daniel or Gabriel ever intended to be mashed together, to create a ficticious "orphaned" last week of Daniel that somehow gets mysteriously detached from the other 69 weeks and floats off into some future time.

Daniel is pondering TWO seperate prophecies when Gabriel comes. The first is the prophecied curses of Moses (Leviticus 26:14-46). Daniel is wondering if they have finished or not. He is, at the same time, pondering the separate prophecy of Jeremiah (not Moses) about the coming of Christ. The first thing Gabriel informs Daniel of is that the 70 years of Exile in Babylon is NOT the last curse of Moses, there is still one more sevenfold curse to come before Israel is to be destroyed and scattered as the last curse prophesises. (Hence 70 X 7 Years). Gabriel is saying there is still 490 years of the curse to be served before the fulfilment of the last curse.

Gabriel THEN turns to the matter of Jeremiah's prophecy about the coming Messiah. HERE ONLY He gives a starting point and a time frame for the Messiah's coming. 69 "weeks" after THIS event the Messiah will come. The event relates to the coming of the Messiah, NOT to the 70 weeks of curse. Gabriel does not relate the decree to the 70 weeks, only to the coming of the Messiah. The only way we know the timeframe of the fulfilment of the last curse is because we KNOW how it ends. That 74 AD accomplishes ALL of the last curses of Leviticus 26 and finishes the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 is confirmed by understanding that it comes exactly 70 Weeks after Jerusalem has been rebuilt from the ravages of the previous curse. But thanks for the opportunity to explain it (we seem to be doing that a lot lately don't we:)).

OK but seeing as Agricola seems to have declined the challenge perhaps you can tell me where Daniel 9-12 mentions the "AntiChrist". Or indeed where the word "AntiChrist" appears ANYWHERE in the OT. I can't find it. Perhaps you can show me where. As to the NT are you saying the Apostles have NOT declared that there are many antiChrists?

I will believe the word of the Lord above EVEN the word of a Sunday School teacher :eek:

As to the last I will allow the word of the Lord Himself to bear witness whether or not He has done so.
 
The Bible does not speak of a mass resurrection BEFORE the 1,000 years so naturally you wouldn't see it in the history books. It is only what is actually contained in Revelation and generally known that you will find. BUT as I say in the video I am just providing the facts of History and the FACTS of what Revelation actually says. It is for people to judge for themselves. All I am doing is trying to ensure it is a fully informed judgement. You can only point out the facts, you can't force people to believe them. I never tell people to believe me but to believe the facts of reality and history and the reality of what is actually written in the Bible.

But don't worry, I am just as confused at some of the very strange interpretations of scripture I have seen presented to me here. Jesus has told us to expect opposition to preaching the word of God so I do not take such opposition personally. I am not offended because people choose not to believe the things I say. They are the ones who have to face the consequences of THEIR decisions. I will only be judged by the decisions *I* make. That is why I am more concerned that what I believe is actually true. The beliefs we must question the most and test the hardest are ALWAYS our own. MY fate is sealed by the truth or otherwise of what I believe, not what you or anybody else believes. I am simply encouraging people to question the things they have been told to make sure that what they believe or are being asked to believe IS actually true or not. To do that they MUST take careful note of the reality about them and the actual meaning of the words the LORD has CHOSEN to WRITE.

What happens after that is between them and the Lord.
Speculating there is a cover up in the Dark Ages is not fact, its your interpretation, you even have openly admitted that you are a lone ranger, that is you have undertaken the task to interpret all the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation on your own, which is dangerous. Facts are Facts, but you are then taking 1+1 and making 3 then presenting it as fact and expecting everyone else who says 1+1=2 to beleive you. You do not seem to grasp what a fact is, we see this all the time in my field of ancient history we all agree that X Y Z is established fact, but you will find a number of interpretations of those facts with different historians bringing out new ideas regarding them, you can also see it happening on daily basis when you go to an archaeological dig.

All you are doing is presenting facts and dressing them up in your interpretation and presenting the whole thing as 100% truth and a complete fact, when it is obviously just a theory and nothing more, then to rub salt into the wounds and adding insult to injury you the use the Holier than Thou card by implying that your interpretation has Gods seal of approval and anyone else disagreeing will have to answer to God why they did not agree with your theory, totally utterly ridiculous, please show me in the Bible where it says that people who do not accept a certain interpretation of prophecy will have to deal with Gods wrath and have to answer to God for it.

But don't worry, I am just as confused at some of the very strange interpretations of scripture I have seen presented to me here.

Is it honestly? I dont think so somehow i suspect you do understand, just as I am trying to understand your theory, but as I said the more I look at your theory the more chaos and confusion I see, I fix one of your claims solid and say "ok thats that," then I look at the broader picture and its just confusion, as I pointed out you are having to resort to sweeping things under the carpet of history to convienintly deal with it, its easy to do that and claim "Satan has hidden things in history"[sic] which is what you have claimed in previous posts. Even this whole thing with Gessius Florus is a lot of hot air over nothing, you told us to research him ourselves etc and made out he was a big time player in prophecy when he was not, all he did was set into motion a series of events which led to the Jews taking up armed resistance, despite the regions Kings and leaders telling them not to and just sit and wait for Nero to replace Florus.

The only way I can see it being confusing for you is if you are still trying to see it through your own interpretations and your own conclusions. Bill and Major have done an outsanding job of presenting this to you in a very clear way, much better than I could. They also point out how its not thier interpretation, it is a solid conclusion come to and agreed by countless theologians and the greatest names we can think of. Yes there is some division in the basic 70th week conclusion, but those tend to be just squables over minor points, the most obvious being the timing of the rapture.

Jesus has told us to expect opposition to preaching the word of God so I do not take such opposition personally

How dare you, outrageous comment to make. You have hung yourself with this one and shown just how ignorant you are interpreting scripture, if you can not get this right, then it is obvious that you will never get prophecy right.
The opposition Christ speaks of is from non beleivers when we go out and spread the gospel, nothing to do with fellow beleivers not agreeing with interpretation, I think this is enough to now totally discredit you and your theories, you should hang your head in shame.
 
Speculating there is a cover up in the Dark Ages is not fact, its your interpretation, you even have openly admitted that you are a lone ranger, that is you have undertaken the task to interpret all the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation on your own, which is dangerous. Facts are Facts, but you are then taking 1+1 and making 3 then presenting it as fact and expecting everyone else who says 1+1=2 to beleive you. You do not seem to grasp what a fact is, we see this all the time in my field of ancient history we all agree that X Y Z is established fact, but you will find a number of interpretations of those facts with different historians bringing out new ideas regarding them, you can also see it happening on daily basis when you go to an archaeological dig.

All you are doing is presenting facts and dressing them up in your interpretation and presenting the whole thing as 100% truth and a complete fact, when it is obviously just a theory and nothing more, then to rub salt into the wounds and adding insult to injury you the use the Holier than Thou card by implying that your interpretation has Gods seal of approval and anyone else disagreeing will have to answer to God why they did not agree with your theory, totally utterly ridiculous, please show me in the Bible where it says that people who do not accept a certain interpretation of prophecy will have to deal with Gods wrath and have to answer to God for it.

Is it honestly? I dont think so somehow i suspect you do understand, just as I am trying to understand your theory, but as I said the more I look at your theory the more chaos and confusion I see, I fix one of your claims solid and say "ok thats that," then I look at the broader picture and its just confusion, as I pointed out you are having to resort to sweeping things under the carpet of history to convienintly deal with it, its easy to do that and claim "Satan has hidden things in history"[sic] which is what you have claimed in previous posts. Even this whole thing with Gessius Florus is a lot of hot air over nothing, you told us to research him ourselves etc and made out he was a big time player in prophecy when he was not, all he did was set into motion a series of events which led to the Jews taking up armed resistance, despite the regions Kings and leaders telling them not to and just sit and wait for Nero to replace Florus.

The only way I can see it being confusing for you is if you are still trying to see it through your own interpretations and your own conclusions. Bill and Major have done an outsanding job of presenting this to you in a very clear way, much better than I could. They also point out how its not thier interpretation, it is a solid conclusion come to and agreed by countless theologians and the greatest names we can think of. Yes there is some division in the basic 70th week conclusion, but those tend to be just squables over minor points, the most obvious being the timing of the rapture.

How dare you, outrageous comment to make. You have hung yourself with this one and shown just how ignorant you are interpreting scripture, if you can not get this right, then it is obvious that you will never get prophecy right.
The opposition Christ speaks of is from non beleivers when we go out and spread the gospel, nothing to do with fellow beleivers not agreeing with interpretation, I think this is enough to now totally discredit you and your theories, you should hang your head in shame.

Misty,
You said...............
"Jesus has told us to expect opposition to preaching the word of God so I do not take such opposition personally".

YEP............you showed your true colors right here. It is of course what most of us have known for some time now.

You are in fact telling all of us that YOU are the one with the authority and knowledge to get out the Word of God.

YOU have placed YOU on a pedistal and by your own words have dimished the thoughts and understandings of all the others on this site. YOU and YOU alone have REJECTED GOD"S OWN WORDS and advice my friend and you are so consumed with YOU that YOU can not even see it. Every one else does!!!!!

Proverbs 8:13
"The fear of the Lord is to hate eveil, pride and arrogancy".

Proverbs 3:7
"Be not wise in thine own eyes, fear the Lord and depart from eveil".

I have to agree with Agirola...................."I think this is enough to now totally discredit you and your theories".
 
Speculating there is a cover up in the Dark Ages is not fact, its your interpretation, you even have openly admitted that you are a lone ranger, that is you have undertaken the task to interpret all the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation on your own, which is dangerous. Facts are Facts, but you are then taking 1+1 and making 3 then presenting it as fact and expecting everyone else who says 1+1=2 to beleive you. You do not seem to revelationgrasp what a fact is, we see this all the time in my field of ancient history we all agree that X Y Z is established fact, but you will find a number of interpretations of those facts with different historians bringing out new ideas regarding them, you can also see it happening on daily basis when you go to an archaeological dig.

The suggestion that the 1,000 years of the Byzantine CHRISTIAN Empire might be the 1,000 years Revelation is referring to is not new, it is just not popular or well known. It has been around since at least the 1500's I have discovered. That people seem to avoid, or are discouraged from (as you are doing here) discussing certain facts does not invalidate the facts.But rather than you hurling unsubstantiated accusation after accusation at me is not the better solution for people to view the videos for themselves and judge for themselves the things I have actually said? I have nothing to hide. The FACTS (yes they ARE actual facts) are out there and people CAN investigate them independently for themselves. I am merely alerting them to the existance of those facts.

To make it easier for people I will even provide the links to the two 10 minute videos. If they pay particular attention to what I say in the very first minute and a half of the first video (Part 1) they will see for themselves the falseness of your accusations.

"Hidden in The Dark Part 1" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LysDktfNfXQ
"Hidden in The Dark Part 2" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXOq4Uvm5og

All you are doing is presenting facts and dressing them up in your interpretation and presenting the whole thing as 100% truth and a complete fact, when it is obviously just a theory and nothing more, then to rub salt into the wounds and adding insult to injury you the use the Holier than Thou card by implying that your interpretation has Gods seal of approval and anyone else disagreeing will have to answer to God why they did not agree with your theory, totally utterly ridiculous, please show me in the Bible where it says that people who do not accept a certain interpretation of prophecy will have to deal with Gods wrath and have to answer to God for it.

Well at least you are aknowledging they ARE facts. But again I will let people view the videos for themselves and then they can make a properly informed judgement of YOUR words and accusations for themselves.

Is it honestly? I dont think so somehow i suspect you do understand, just as I am trying to understand your theory, but as I said the more I look at your theory the more chaos and confusion I see, I fix one of your claims solid and say "ok thats that," then I look at the broader picture and its just confusion, as I pointed out you are having to resort to sweeping things under the carpet of history to convienintly deal with it, its easy to do that and claim "Satan has hidden things in history"[sic] which is what you have claimed in previous posts. Even this whole thing with Gessius Florus is a lot of hot air over nothing, you told us to research him ourselves etc and made out he was a big time player in prophecy when he was not, all he did was set into motion a series of events which led to the Jews taking up armed resistance, despite the regions Kings and leaders telling them not to and just sit and wait for Nero to replace Florus.

Oh no, I AM being quite honest. I look at what the words of the passage ACTUALLY say and am quite genuinely puzzled at how they can arrive at an interpretation that is nothing like what the passage actually says. But rest assured I am not the one sweeping things under the carpet. I am the one dragging them out again and closely examining them to understand why it is the world does not want us to look at them too closely. The facts are still there under the carpet and people are quite free to do their own dragging out and investigating. In fact I encourage it.

I draw people's attention to Gessius because he is one of the few individuls of this period that history deals with in some detail and is the key to realising that in 66AD the daily sacrifices were indeed stopped. Another fact of history tucked away under the carpet but vital to understanding that the events the prophecy foretold did indeed come to pass at that time exactly as prophecied. The large golden Eagle Herod had mounted on the wing of the remodelled temple which was completed in 63AD is another of those little known facts that dovetails exactly into the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecies.

To recognise the fulfilment of prophecy you have to delve into the history books because that is where the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy is recorded. To do it you actually have to know what history has recorded. I am merely drawing people's attention to these incredible fulfilments recorded by official world history itself.

The only way I can see it being confusing for you is if you are still trying to see it through your own interpretations and your own conclusions. Bill and Major have done an outsanding job of presenting this to you in a very clear way, much better than I could. They also point out how its not thier interpretation, it is a solid conclusion come to and agreed by countless theologians and the greatest names we can think of. Yes there is some division in the basic 70th week conclusion, but those tend to be just squables over minor points, the most obvious being the timing of the rapture.

I am quite happy for others to read our words, those of official world history, and those of God Himself and judge between us for themselves - are you?

How dare you, outrageous comment to make. You have hung yourself with this one and shown just how ignorant you are interpreting scripture, if you can not get this right, then it is obvious that you will never get prophecy right.
The opposition Christ speaks of is from non beleivers when we go out and spread the gospel, nothing to do with fellow beleivers not agreeing with interpretation, I think this is enough to now totally discredit you and your theories, you should hang your head in shame.

I do not speak of mere disagreeing IN LOVE on interpretation but on those who viciuosly attack, accuse, belittle, slander, etc. those who dare to disagree with them or dare to test their words against the word of God. We know from John that such people existed in the churches even then:-

3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
And we know from Paul it will get worse over time:

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

(Which, as an aside, is why we cannot use popularity of, or number of adherents of, etc. as a measure of truth. "Itchy Ear" syndrome is rife in the Christian community sadly)

But perhaps you can answer this. Those who cry "Lord, Lord" and call themselves Christian and brothers and sisters in Christ but who Christ Himself disowns and calls workers of iniquity. Are they of Christ or of Satan? Will they display the fruits of GOD's Holy Spirit or the fruits of Satan's UNholy spirit?
 
My friend Misstman posted this.......................
"OK but seeing as Agricola seems to have declined the challenge perhaps you can tell me where Daniel 9-12 mentions the "AntiChrist". Or indeed where the word "AntiChrist" appears ANYWHERE in the OT. I can't find it. Perhaps you can show me where. As to the NT are you saying the Apostles have NOT declared that there are many antiChrists?"

Misstman............
Will you please tell me where the word "Christ" appears in the OT.
Will you please tell me where the word "Trinity" appears in the OT.
Will you please tell me where the word "Church" appears in the OT.
Will you please tell me where the word "Nativity" appears in the OT.

I can't find them.
Perhaps you can show me where they are.

Then you asked me one of your misleading questions................................

As to the NT are you saying the Apostles have NOT declared that there are many antiChrists?

NOW...........is that really what I said Misty???????

Here is what I said................
"Now you seem to be saying that there is not a coming antichrist(I find references in the NT but they tell me there are many antichrists not just one single antichrist.")

How in the world do you come to the question you asked out of my statement to you is beyound me.

1 John 2:18
"Little children, (how appropriate that is today) it is the last time, and as ye have heard that antichrist (SINGULAR...."THE" Antichrist) SHALL come (Future); even now are there many antichrists whereby we know that it is the last time.

The "word" antichrist appears only here and also in #22 and 4:3 and 2 John 2:7.

Paul uses another word to describe this coming antichrist is 2 Thess. 2:3 he calls him the "MAN OF SIN" and the "SON OF PERDITION" also the "LAWLESS ONE....and the "WICKED".

John calls him in Rev. 13:1 "THE BEAST"

Now, to find the word ANTICHRIST in the Old Test, you will not. It comes under the same learning ability of "IMPLIED TRUTH" that we get the understanding from of TRINITY, RAPTURE, CHURCH, CHRIST etc.

Daniel calls this same person "THE LITTLE HORN" in 7:8; 20; 21;24;25.( COMPARE TO REV. 13)
He also calls him the "WILLFUL KING" in 11:36,
"THE COMING PRINCE" in 9:26.
"HE" in Dan. 9:27.
 
The suggestion that the 1,000 years of the Byzantine CHRISTIAN Empire might be the 1,000 years Revelation is referring to is not new, it is just not popular or well known. It has been around since at least the 1500's I have discovered. That people seem to avoid, or are discouraged from (as you are doing here) discussing certain facts does not invalidate the facts.But rather than you hurling unsubstantiated accusation after accusation at me is not the better solution for people to view the videos for themselves and judge for themselves the things I have actually said? I have nothing to hide. The FACTS (yes they ARE actual facts) are out there and people CAN investigate them independently for themselves. I am merely alerting them to the existance of those facts.

To make it easier for people I will even provide the links to the two 10 minute videos. If they pay particular attention to what I say in the very first minute and a half of the first video (Part 1) they will see for themselves the falseness of your accusations.

"Hidden in The Dark Part 1" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LysDktfNfXQ
"Hidden in The Dark Part 2" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXOq4Uvm5og

Well at least you are aknowledging they ARE facts. But again I will let people view the videos for themselves and then they can make a properly informed judgement of YOUR words and accusations for themselves.

Oh no, I AM being quite honest. I look at what the words of the passage ACTUALLY say and am quite genuinely puzzled at how they can arrive at an interpretation that is nothing like what the passage actually says. But rest assured I am not the one sweeping things under the carpet. I am the one dragging them out again and closely examining them to understand why it is the world does not want us to look at them too closely. The facts are still there under the carpet and people are quite free to do their own dragging out and investigating. In fact I encourage it.

I draw people's attention to Gessius because he is one of the few individuls of this period that history deals with in some detail and is the key to realising that in 66AD the daily sacrifices were indeed stopped. Another fact of history tucked away under the carpet but vital to understanding that the events the prophecy foretold did indeed come to pass at that time exactly as prophecied. The large golden Eagle Herod had mounted on the wing of the remodelled temple which was completed in 63AD is another of those little known facts that dovetails exactly into the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecies.

To recognise the fulfilment of prophecy you have to delve into the history books because that is where the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy is recorded. To do it you actually have to know what history has recorded. I am merely drawing people's attention to these incredible fulfilments recorded by official world history itself.

I am quite happy for others to read our words, those of official world history, and those of God Himself and judge between us for themselves - are you?

I do not speak of mere disagreeing IN LOVE on interpretation but on those who viciuosly attack, accuse, belittle, slander, etc. those who dare to disagree with them or dare to test their words against the word of God. We know from John that such people existed in the churches even then:-

3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
And we know from Paul it will get worse over time:

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

(Which, as an aside, is why we cannot use popularity of, or number of adherents of, etc. as a measure of truth. "Itchy Ear" syndrome is rife in the Christian community sadly)

But perhaps you can answer this. Those who cry "Lord, Lord" and call themselves Christian and brothers and sisters in Christ but who Christ Himself disowns and calls workers of iniquity. Are they of Christ or of Satan? Will they display the fruits of GOD's Holy Spirit or the fruits of Satan's UNholy spirit?

But perhaps you can answer this. Those who cry "Lord, Lord" and call themselves Christian and brothers and sisters in Christ but who Christ Himself disowns and calls workers of iniquity. Are they of Christ or of Satan? Will they display the fruits of GOD's Holy Spirit or the fruits of Satan's UNholy spirit?

How appropriate. Personally I would never say that to another believer but since you have lets post it.

It of course has nothing to do with the context of this thread.

As usual, you said it in an ambigouse way so that later it can be said you did not intend to to mean anyone in particular and that alone is a problem for me. SAY what you mean and mean what you say!

Matthew 25:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Clearly not everyone professing Christ is genuinely saved. Even the outward verbal acknowledgment of His Lordship is in itself not enough to save the unbeliever apart from true repeentance and faith. A really saved person is one who does the will of the Father and the Greek present tense suggests that he is CONTINUALLY living in obedience to the will of God as the normal course of his life.
 
Misty,
You said...............
"Jesus has told us to expect opposition to preaching the word of God so I do not take such opposition personally".

YEP............you showed your true colors right here. It is of course what most of us have known for some time now.

You are in fact telling all of us that YOU are the one with the authority and knowledge to get out the Word of God.

YOU have placed YOU on a pedistal and by your own words have dimished the thoughts and understandings of all the others on this site. YOU and YOU alone have REJECTED GOD"S OWN WORDS and advice my friend and you are so consumed with YOU that YOU can not even see it. Every one else does!!!!!

Proverbs 8:13
"The fear of the Lord is to hate eveil, pride and arrogancy".

Proverbs 3:7
"Be not wise in thine own eyes, fear the Lord and depart from eveil".

I have to agree with Agirola...................."I think this is enough to now totally discredit you and your theories".

I am happy for people to use the written word of God and of history and their own counsel with the Holy Spirit to judge between us on the words we have spoken. Are you?
 
I am happy for people to use the written word of God and of history and their own counsel with the Holy Spirit to judge between us on the words we have spoken. Are you?

What a question to ask me after all these posts between us. That tells me you have not been reading too much of what I have said.

Romans 1:16
"FOR I AM NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST FOR IT IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION TO EVERYONE THAT BELIEVETH TO THE JEW FIRST AND ALSO TO THE GREEK".

I thank God that anyone would read and then look up the meaning in the Word of God that I might say.

It is a glorious testimony to the power of the living God and the Holy Spirit in me that ANYONE would think enough of me to confirm it with God's Word.

AM I HAPPY SOMEONE WOULD judge between us the Biblical correctness of our conversation?????????????

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Praise God I am glad that anyone would do that my friend.

IN fact.........I INSIST THAT BE THE CASE ALL THE TIME!
 
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