The cessation of miracles

Chapter Heb 2: 3, 4In the sometimes heated discussions over the question of the duration of certain spiritual gifts, one argument has persisted from the side of charismatics: There is no prooftext that any spiritual gift has ceased. As impressive as this argument sounds, a couple of responses should be given. First, if the NT was written by men who in fact exercised these sign gifts, why should they say that such had ceased? It would be difficult to find a text in which this point would be explicit. Second, the NT apostles by and large expected the Lord’s return in their lifetime (cf. 1 Thess 4:15: “we who are alive, who are remaining until the coming of the Lord”). Hence, we should not expect them to make any statements regarding the cessation of gifts, since that would presuppose that they knew the Lord’s return would be delayed. In order to find such a statement, we would need to construct the following scenario: A member of an apostle’s band writes a letter after that apostle had died. Further, in the letter he finds some reason to explicitly mention something about sign gifts.

Such a scenario is difficult to imagine. Happily, the NT provides not only one, but two books that fit such a picture: Jude and Hebrews. And both address--to some degree at least--the issue of gifts and authority. Our purpose in this paper is to look more closely at one text, Hebrews 2:3-4.

Hebrews 2:3-4 is a text often put forth by cessationists that certain spiritual gifts have ceased. The text reads as follows: (3) pw'" hJmei'" ejkfeuxovmeqa thlikauvth" ajmelhvsante" swthriva" h{ti,” ajrchVn labou'sa lalei'sqai diaV tou' kurivou, uJpoV tw'n ajkousavntwn eij" hJma'" ejbebaiwvqh, (4) sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou' shmeivoi" te kaiV tevrasin kaiV poikivlai" dunavmesin kaiV pneuvmato" aJgivou merismoi'" kataV thVn aujtou' qevlhsin.(“[3] How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which was at first declared by the Lord, and was attested to us by those who heard him, [4] while God was also bearing them witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will”).

The argument that this text refers to the cessation of certain gifts is based on an inference in the text, viz., that since the first generation of Christians were explicitly eyewitnesses to certain sign gifts, the second generation of Christians was not. Usually books that address the issue of gifts don’t go further than this point. One has to wonder how valid it is, however.

Several things in the text need to be examined to see whether this text has any validity for the cessation of sign gifts. First, the genitive absolute in v 4 (sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou'/ “God bearing witness”) needs to be addressed. A couple of points should be mentioned.

(1) On a purely syntactical level, the genitive absolute does not of course relate to anything. But it is not like the vocative--that is, it is not extra-sentential. Rather, it is virtually a constructio ad sensum. That is, it is merely a Greek convention for expressing adverbial relations, usually of a temporal nature.

(2) Thus, it is neither helpful nor accurate to leave a genitive absolute dangling. The genitive absolute exists precisely because the subject of the genitive participle is different from the subject of the verb in the main clause. But the genitive absolute construction is still dependent on the time of the main verb.

(3) So to what is it semantically dependent? The genitive absolute is most naturally subordinated to the aorist ejbebaiwvqh (“was attested, confirmed”). To take it back to the future ejkfeuxovmeqa (“shall we escape”) in v 3 is stretching things, although the meaning would fit a continuationist position (“How shall we escape . . . while God bears witness with signs and wonders . . . ?”). Still, not only the distance, but the awkwardness of meaning poses a problem. That is, the conditional participle (ajmelhvsante") makes perfectly good sense (‘if we neglect. . .’) as the modifier of the future verb. But what is the relation of the genitive absolute construction to the verb? Over 90% of genitive absolute constructions are temporal (the next largest category is causal). If that is the case here, what is the meaning? Is it something like, “by what means can we possibly escape this great salvation while God is bearing witness to us”? The sense connection is lacking, no matter how you construe it. Take this a step further. It is even more improbable that the genitive absolute is subordinated to the conditional participle: “if we neglect . . . while God is bearing witness . . .” The force of the argument would have been considerably strengthened had the author said, “if we neglect so great a salvation which God bears witness to . . .” But that would require an adjectival participle--which, by definition, does not fit the genitive absolute construction. This leaves one of two options left: (a) the aorist indicative, ejbebaiwvqh, as the word to which the genitive absolute is semantically (not technically syntactically; see above) subordinate to. This makes perfectly good sense; besides, the structure fits most naturally: “it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God bore witness . . .” Or (b) the substantival aorist participle tw'n ajkousavntwn: the idea then would be that when eyewitnesses heard the message, God bore witness to them. This also makes good sense, and seems to be allowed for by the loose connection of the GA (genitive absolute construction) with the verbal element in the substantival participle. As such, it yields a nice text for cessationism. There are, however, three problems with it: (i) the aorist indicative is closer to the GA; (ii) GAs are normally semantically related to finite verbs (though they sometimes are attached to infinitives; I do not know of any examples off-hand in which they are attached to substantival participles, though this does not strike me as impossible); (iii) the overall meaning is more logically connected if the author is arguing that the confirmation was made by accompanying signs, rather than that the hearing was accompanied by such signs.
 
Chapter Heb 2: 3, 4In the sometimes heated discussions over the question of the duration of certain spiritual gifts, one argument has persisted from the side of charismatics: There is no prooftext that any spiritual gift has ceased. As impressive as this argument sounds, a couple of responses should be given. First, if the NT was written by men who in fact exercised these sign gifts, why should they say that such had ceased? It would be difficult to find a text in which this point would be explicit. Second, the NT apostles by and large expected the Lord’s return in their lifetime (cf. 1 Thess 4:15: “we who are alive, who are remaining until the coming of the Lord”). Hence, we should not expect them to make any statements regarding the cessation of gifts, since that would presuppose that they knew the Lord’s return would be delayed. In order to find such a statement, we would need to construct the following scenario: A member of an apostle’s band writes a letter after that apostle had died. Further, in the letter he finds some reason to explicitly mention something about sign gifts.

Such a scenario is difficult to imagine. Happily, the NT provides not only one, but two books that fit such a picture: Jude and Hebrews. And both address--to some degree at least--the issue of gifts and authority. Our purpose in this paper is to look more closely at one text, Hebrews 2:3-4.

Hebrews 2:3-4 is a text often put forth by cessationists that certain spiritual gifts have ceased. The text reads as follows: (3) pw'" hJmei'" ejkfeuxovmeqa thlikauvth" ajmelhvsante" swthriva" h{ti,” ajrchVn labou'sa lalei'sqai diaV tou' kurivou, uJpoV tw'n ajkousavntwn eij" hJma'" ejbebaiwvqh, (4) sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou' shmeivoi" te kaiV tevrasin kaiV poikivlai" dunavmesin kaiV pneuvmato" aJgivou merismoi'" kataV thVn aujtou' qevlhsin.(“[3] How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which was at first declared by the Lord, and was attested to us by those who heard him, [4] while God was also bearing them witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will”).

The argument that this text refers to the cessation of certain gifts is based on an inference in the text, viz., that since the first generation of Christians were explicitly eyewitnesses to certain sign gifts, the second generation of Christians was not. Usually books that address the issue of gifts don’t go further than this point. One has to wonder how valid it is, however.

Several things in the text need to be examined to see whether this text has any validity for the cessation of sign gifts. First, the genitive absolute in v 4 (sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou'/ “God bearing witness”) needs to be addressed. A couple of points should be mentioned.

(1) On a purely syntactical level, the genitive absolute does not of course relate to anything. But it is not like the vocative--that is, it is not extra-sentential. Rather, it is virtually a constructio ad sensum. That is, it is merely a Greek convention for expressing adverbial relations, usually of a temporal nature.

(2) Thus, it is neither helpful nor accurate to leave a genitive absolute dangling. The genitive absolute exists precisely because the subject of the genitive participle is different from the subject of the verb in the main clause. But the genitive absolute construction is still dependent on the time of the main verb.

(3) So to what is it semantically dependent? The genitive absolute is most naturally subordinated to the aorist ejbebaiwvqh (“was attested, confirmed”). To take it back to the future ejkfeuxovmeqa (“shall we escape”) in v 3 is stretching things, although the meaning would fit a continuationist position (“How shall we escape . . . while God bears witness with signs and wonders . . . ?”). Still, not only the distance, but the awkwardness of meaning poses a problem. That is, the conditional participle (ajmelhvsante") makes perfectly good sense (‘if we neglect. . .’) as the modifier of the future verb. But what is the relation of the genitive absolute construction to the verb? Over 90% of genitive absolute constructions are temporal (the next largest category is causal). If that is the case here, what is the meaning? Is it something like, “by what means can we possibly escape this great salvation while God is bearing witness to us”? The sense connection is lacking, no matter how you construe it. Take this a step further. It is even more improbable that the genitive absolute is subordinated to the conditional participle: “if we neglect . . . while God is bearing witness . . .” The force of the argument would have been considerably strengthened had the author said, “if we neglect so great a salvation which God bears witness to . . .” But that would require an adjectival participle--which, by definition, does not fit the genitive absolute construction. This leaves one of two options left: (a) the aorist indicative, ejbebaiwvqh, as the word to which the genitive absolute is semantically (not technically syntactically; see above) subordinate to. This makes perfectly good sense; besides, the structure fits most naturally: “it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God bore witness . . .” Or (b) the substantival aorist participle tw'n ajkousavntwn: the idea then would be that when eyewitnesses heard the message, God bore witness to them. This also makes good sense, and seems to be allowed for by the loose connection of the GA (genitive absolute construction) with the verbal element in the substantival participle. As such, it yields a nice text for cessationism. There are, however, three problems with it: (i) the aorist indicative is closer to the GA; (ii) GAs are normally semantically related to finite verbs (though they sometimes are attached to infinitives; I do not know of any examples off-hand in which they are attached to substantival participles, though this does not strike me as impossible); (iii) the overall meaning is more logically connected if the author is arguing that the confirmation was made by accompanying signs, rather than that the hearing was accompanied by such signs.
My response to those who claim to be apostles exercising sign gifts is simple. Go to the hospital and cure all the cancer patients, and then go to the morgue and raise all the dead people. When this is completed, I will lend credence to their claims. It's strange that sign gifts are not documented after the first century until 1907.
With the completion of the New Testament canonical writings, sign gifts are no longer necessary to validate the gospel message. God's special revelation of himself and his plans is complete.
 
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My response to those who claim to be apostles exercising sign gifts is simple. Go to the hospital and cure all the cancer patients, and then go to the morgue and raise all the dead people. When this is completed, I will lend credence to their claims. It's strange that sign gifts are not documented after the first century until 1907.
With the completion of the New Testament canonical writings, sign gifts are no longer necessary to validate the gospel message. God's special revelation of himself and his plans is complete.
Amen!

Personally, at my age I have grown weary of the claims by the Pentecostals of miracles, and wonders, and tongues and this and that.

Those who want to believe the Bible will do so and those who want to believe what a man tells them will do so as well.

God could not have said it any clearer in 1 Corinthians 13:8

"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, ".
 
Chapter Heb 2: 3, 4In the sometimes heated discussions over the question of the duration of certain spiritual gifts, one argument has persisted from the side of charismatics: There is no prooftext that any spiritual gift has ceased. As impressive as this argument sounds, a couple of responses should be given. First, if the NT was written by men who in fact exercised these sign gifts, why should they say that such had ceased? It would be difficult to find a text in which this point would be explicit. Second, the NT apostles by and large expected the Lord’s return in their lifetime (cf. 1 Thess 4:15: “we who are alive, who are remaining until the coming of the Lord”). Hence, we should not expect them to make any statements regarding the cessation of gifts, since that would presuppose that they knew the Lord’s return would be delayed. In order to find such a statement, we would need to construct the following scenario: A member of an apostle’s band writes a letter after that apostle had died. Further, in the letter he finds some reason to explicitly mention something about sign gifts.

Such a scenario is difficult to imagine. Happily, the NT provides not only one, but two books that fit such a picture: Jude and Hebrews. And both address--to some degree at least--the issue of gifts and authority. Our purpose in this paper is to look more closely at one text, Hebrews 2:3-4.

Hebrews 2:3-4 is a text often put forth by cessationists that certain spiritual gifts have ceased. The text reads as follows: (3) pw'" hJmei'" ejkfeuxovmeqa thlikauvth" ajmelhvsante" swthriva" h{ti,” ajrchVn labou'sa lalei'sqai diaV tou' kurivou, uJpoV tw'n ajkousavntwn eij" hJma'" ejbebaiwvqh, (4) sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou' shmeivoi" te kaiV tevrasin kaiV poikivlai" dunavmesin kaiV pneuvmato" aJgivou merismoi'" kataV thVn aujtou' qevlhsin.(“[3] How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which was at first declared by the Lord, and was attested to us by those who heard him, [4] while God was also bearing them witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will”).

The argument that this text refers to the cessation of certain gifts is based on an inference in the text, viz., that since the first generation of Christians were explicitly eyewitnesses to certain sign gifts, the second generation of Christians was not. Usually books that address the issue of gifts don’t go further than this point. One has to wonder how valid it is, however.

Several things in the text need to be examined to see whether this text has any validity for the cessation of sign gifts. First, the genitive absolute in v 4 (sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou'/ “God bearing witness”) needs to be addressed. A couple of points should be mentioned.

(1) On a purely syntactical level, the genitive absolute does not of course relate to anything. But it is not like the vocative--that is, it is not extra-sentential. Rather, it is virtually a constructio ad sensum. That is, it is merely a Greek convention for expressing adverbial relations, usually of a temporal nature.

(2) Thus, it is neither helpful nor accurate to leave a genitive absolute dangling. The genitive absolute exists precisely because the subject of the genitive participle is different from the subject of the verb in the main clause. But the genitive absolute construction is still dependent on the time of the main verb.

(3) So to what is it semantically dependent? The genitive absolute is most naturally subordinated to the aorist ejbebaiwvqh (“was attested, confirmed”). To take it back to the future ejkfeuxovmeqa (“shall we escape”) in v 3 is stretching things, although the meaning would fit a continuationist position (“How shall we escape . . . while God bears witness with signs and wonders . . . ?”). Still, not only the distance, but the awkwardness of meaning poses a problem. That is, the conditional participle (ajmelhvsante") makes perfectly good sense (‘if we neglect. . .’) as the modifier of the future verb. But what is the relation of the genitive absolute construction to the verb? Over 90% of genitive absolute constructions are temporal (the next largest category is causal). If that is the case here, what is the meaning? Is it something like, “by what means can we possibly escape this great salvation while God is bearing witness to us”? The sense connection is lacking, no matter how you construe it. Take this a step further. It is even more improbable that the genitive absolute is subordinated to the conditional participle: “if we neglect . . . while God is bearing witness . . .” The force of the argument would have been considerably strengthened had the author said, “if we neglect so great a salvation which God bears witness to . . .” But that would require an adjectival participle--which, by definition, does not fit the genitive absolute construction. This leaves one of two options left: (a) the aorist indicative, ejbebaiwvqh, as the word to which the genitive absolute is semantically (not technically syntactically; see above) subordinate to. This makes perfectly good sense; besides, the structure fits most naturally: “it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God bore witness . . .” Or (b) the substantival aorist participle tw'n ajkousavntwn: the idea then would be that when eyewitnesses heard the message, God bore witness to them. This also makes good sense, and seems to be allowed for by the loose connection of the GA (genitive absolute construction) with the verbal element in the substantival participle. As such, it yields a nice text for cessationism. There are, however, three problems with it: (i) the aorist indicative is closer to the GA; (ii) GAs are normally semantically related to finite verbs (though they sometimes are attached to infinitives; I do not know of any examples off-hand in which they are attached to substantival participles, though this does not strike me as impossible); (iii) the overall meaning is more logically connected if the author is arguing that the confirmation was made by accompanying signs, rather than that the hearing was accompanied by such signs.
The "sign gifts" were only given to the ELEVEN!

Mark 16:14-19.....
Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven
and he sat at the right hand of God."
 
My response to those who claim to be apostles exercising sign gifts is simple. Go to the hospital and cure all the cancer patients, and then go to the morgue and raise all the dead people. When this is completed, I will lend credence to their claims. It's strange that sign gifts are not documented after the first century until 1907.
With the completion of the New Testament canonical writings, sign gifts are no longer necessary to validate the gospel message. God's special revelation of himself and his plans is complete.
Hi BibleLover,

Having been brought up with Apostles, Prophets etc and seen first-hand their character, their doctrine, and some with power signs, it seems to me that there is a misconception of what the ministry, the person of an Apostle is. Even looking at the 12 apostles we see differences - there is James, and an Epaphroditus as well as a Peter and a Paul.

The 12 Apostles were to be witnesses of the resurrection of the Lord. (Acts 1: 22) However, when the Lord ascended to the Father and was made Head of the Body we see Him telling us that His 5 fold ministries are given to equip the Body and mature it. (Eph. 4: 10 - 16)

Is that accomplished yet? No. Thus, we need ALL of the Lord and His ministries to do that.

Now, I would say that those who are saying they are Apostles today, mainly are not. They think they have to be CEO`s of large organizations. They are false and present a false doctrine.
 
The "sign gifts" were only given to the ELEVEN!

Mark 16:14-19.....
Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven
and he sat at the right hand of God."
Not sure what you talking about. Many of those believers in Corinth had the sign gifts, many more in Acts 2 spoke in Gentile Dialects.

The text you cited in Mark does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts. It was added later in the second century, possibly early 3rd century. Here is the longer text that is not a Markan text based on the Greek grammar and words used.

9 [[Early on the first day of the week, after he arose, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had driven out seven demons. 10 She went out and told those who were with him, while they were mourning and weeping. 11 And when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe. 12 After this he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were on their way to the country. 13 They went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them. 14 Then he appeared to the Eleven themselves, while they were eating, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen him resurrected. 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands, and whatever poison they drink will not harm them; they will place their hands on the sick and they will be well.” 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 They went out and proclaimed everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the word through the accompanying signs.]]

Whoever wrote the Gospel of Mark did not write this last section. It is decidedly not a Markan writing. Some later manuscripts have this last section, but it is not found in the Critical Text, so it is not found in the early manuscripts.
 
Hi BibleLover,

Having been brought up with Apostles, Prophets etc and seen first-hand their character, their doctrine, and some with power signs, it seems to me that there is a misconception of what the ministry, the person of an Apostle is. Even looking at the 12 apostles we see differences - there is James, and an Epaphroditus as well as a Peter and a Paul.

The 12 Apostles were to be witnesses of the resurrection of the Lord. (Acts 1: 22) However, when the Lord ascended to the Father and was made Head of the Body we see Him telling us that His 5 fold ministries are given to equip the Body and mature it. (Eph. 4: 10 - 16)

Is that accomplished yet? No. Thus, we need ALL of the Lord and His ministries to do that.

Now, I would say that those who are saying they are Apostles today, mainly are not. They think they have to be CEO`s of large organizations. They are false and present a false doctrine.
When Paul wrote Ephesians, the nascent church was forming, and at that time apostles and prophets were active building the church, establishing orthodoxy, and refuting heresies to build the foundation of the faith. Once the church was established, the authority of apostles and prophets was no longer needed because the New Testament was complete and now serves as the foundation of the faith. Of the 5 offices referred to in Ephesians 4:11, the only ones needed by the church now are the evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
 
When Paul wrote Ephesians, the nascent church was forming, and at that time apostles and prophets were active building the church, establishing orthodoxy, and refuting heresies to build the foundation of the faith. Once the church was established, the authority of apostles and prophets was no longer needed because the New Testament was complete and now serves as the foundation of the faith. Of the 5 offices referred to in Ephesians 4:11, the only ones needed by the church now are the evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
So that part of the Headship of Christ is no longer needed?
 
So that part of the Headship of Christ is no longer needed?
I'm not sure what you mean by headship of Christ. The only group I am aware that believes that Christ needs a human representative to represent him and preside over his church is the Roman Catholic Church with their pope. Christ resides in the heart of every believer, and the Holy Spirit superintends and presides over the church.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by headship of Christ. The only group I am aware that believes that Christ needs a human representative to represent him and preside over his church is the Roman Catholic Church with their pope. Christ resides in the heart of every believer, and the Holy Spirit superintends and presides over the church.
I agree that no one is to preside over the Body of Christ. What I mean by headship is that God the Father made Jesus (when He sat at His right hand) -

God (the Father) `gave Him (Jesus) to be Head over all things to the Church which is His Body, the fullness of Him who fill all in all.` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

We would agree so far. Then as we look at the Lord from His word we see -

Jesus the Apostle - `Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,...` (Heb. 3: 1)

Jesus the Prophet - `So the multitude said, "This is Jesus the Prophet from Nazareth of Galilee." ` (Matt. 21: 11)

Jesus the Shepherd - Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd...` (John 10: 14)

Jesus the Teacher - Nicodemus said, "`Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God;...` (John 3: 2)

Jesus the Evangel - Jesus did the work of an Evangelist by calling people to God and preaching forgiveness. (Luke 7: 44 - 50)

The Headship of Christ is the Lord giving of His whole self through His various ministries.

So, it seems (and please correct me if I am interpreting what you wrongly) that you are saying we only need the last three ministries of the Lord for us to be equipped and come to maturity. And that is, (as you say) because we have all the scriptures.

So, with that foundation (as you say) of the scriptures did the Body of Christ grow and mature till God gave Luther the revelation of Faith in Christ alone. That was many centuries after the early Church. And then from there did the Church have full understanding of the scriptures? What about Wesley, and Holy Living and not buying a pew, or Baptists and adult immersion and many other clarifications of scripture that the Head has revealed through His Headship to those ministries He gave to receive them? (1 Cor. 2: 16)
 
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I agree that no one is to preside over the Body of Christ. What I mean by headship is that God the Father made Jesus (when He sat at His right hand) -

God (the Father) `gave Him (Jesus) to be Head over all things to the Church which is His Body, the fullness of Him who fill all in all.` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

We would agree so far. Then as we look at the Lord from His word we see -

Jesus the Apostle - `Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,...` (Heb. 3: 1)

Jesus the Prophet - `So the multitude said, "This is Jesus the Prophet from Nazareth of Galilee." ` (Matt. 21: 11)

Jesus the Shepherd - Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd...` (John 10: 14)

Jesus the Teacher - Nicodemus said, "`Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God;...` (John 3: 2)

Jesus the Evangel - Jesus did the work of an Evangelist by calling people to God and preaching forgiveness. (Luke 7: 44 - 50)

The Headship of Christ is the Lord giving of His whole self through His various ministries.

So, it seems (and please correct me if I am interpreting what you wrongly) that you are saying we only need the last three ministries of the Lord for us to be equipped and come to maturity. And that is, (as you say) because we have all the scriptures.

So, with that foundation (as you say) of the scriptures did the Body of Christ grow and mature till God gave Luther the revelation of Faith in Christ alone. That was many centuries after the early Church. And then from there did the Church have full understanding of the scriptures? What about Wesley, and Holy Living and not buying a pew, or Baptists and adult immersion and many other clarifications of scripture that the Head has revealed through His Headship to those ministries He gave to receive them? (1 Cor. 2: 16)
The early apostles and prophets had the authority to write Scripture to add to the Bible. That's not being done today except by crazy cultists who have their own holy books. If a Christian claims to be a prophet or apostle, I would expect to see him produce new Scriptural revelations to add to the Bible.
 
The early apostles and prophets had the authority to write Scripture to add to the Bible. That's not being done today except by crazy cultists who have their own holy books. If a Christian claims to be a prophet or apostle, I would expect to see him produce new Scriptural revelations to add to the Bible.
So are you saying that the early apostles were just scribes taking down God`s word?
 
Not sure what you talking about. Many of those believers in Corinth had the sign gifts, many more in Acts 2 spoke in Gentile Dialects.

The text you cited in Mark does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts. It was added later in the second century, possibly early 3rd century. Here is the longer text that is not a Markan text based on the Greek grammar and words used.

9 [[Early on the first day of the week, after he arose, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had driven out seven demons. 10 She went out and told those who were with him, while they were mourning and weeping. 11 And when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe. 12 After this he appeared in a different form to two of them while they were on their way to the country. 13 They went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them. 14 Then he appeared to the Eleven themselves, while they were eating, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen him resurrected. 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands, and whatever poison they drink will not harm them; they will place their hands on the sick and they will be well.” 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 They went out and proclaimed everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the word through the accompanying signs.]]

Whoever wrote the Gospel of Mark did not write this last section. It is decidedly not a Markan writing. Some later manuscripts have this last section, but it is not found in the Critical Text, so it is not found in the early manuscripts.
Yes my friend, I think that we all understand that. However, the fact that the words are literally in Mark means that God wanted them there.

Some denominations like to think that everyone who believes will have all the sign gifts. But we learn from the Scriptures that The intent for the sign gifts was primarily to confirm that the apostolic ministry was under divine commission.

Acts 5:12-13
"And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them)”.
 
The early apostles and prophets had the authority to write Scripture to add to the Bible. That's not being done today except by crazy cultists who have their own holy books. If a Christian claims to be a prophet or apostle, I would expect to see him produce new Scriptural revelations to add to the Bible.
Agreed.

There can not be any Apostles today and as the canon is closed, there can be NO prophets. Teachers of the Word of God...YES.
Prophets that "Add" to the Word of God in that they give a view of something happening in the future.....NO!
 
I'm not sure what you mean by headship of Christ. The only group I am aware that believes that Christ needs a human representative to represent him and preside over his church is the Roman Catholic Church with their pope. Christ resides in the heart of every believer, and the Holy Spirit superintends and presides over the church.
That is because the Catholic church believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ and is an Apostle.
 
Yes my friend, I think that we all understand that. However, the fact that the words are literally in Mark means that God wanted them there.

Some denominations like to think that everyone who believes will have all the sign gifts. But we learn from the Scriptures that The intent for the sign gifts was primarily to confirm that the apostolic ministry was under divine commission.

Acts 5:12-13
"And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them)”.
Beware of the critical text as established by Wescott and Hort. When putting that version of the Greek NT together, they injected their personal ungodly biases into their selection of readings, especially giving undue credence to rare ancient texts, considering them more authentic than other texts without objective evidence. It is those texts which omit the end of Mark and the pericope of the adultress in chapter 8 of the Gospel of John. Unfortunately, most modern English translations are based on the text that Wescott and Hort put together, as is the UBS 4th edition Greek NT.
 
Beware of the critical text as established by Wescott and Hort. When putting that version of the Greek NT together, they injected their personal ungodly biases into their selection of readings, especially giving undue credence to rare ancient texts, considering them more authentic than other texts without objective evidence. It is those texts which omit the end of Mark and the pericope of the adultress in chapter 8 of the Gospel of John. Unfortunately, most modern English translations are based on the text that Wescott and Hort put together, as is the UBS 4th edition Greek NT.
I know I am preaching to the choir, however, Westcott and Hort were not believers and opposed taking the Bible literally concerning the Atonement, Salvation, etc. If you read their personal writings you wouldn't dream of letting them lead your Sunday School class!

Their insistence that Mark's Gospel ends at 16:8 leaves the women afraid and fails to record the resurrection, Christ's final instructions, and the Ascension. It is understandable why these verses are an embarrassment to the Gnostics, and why Westcott and Hort would advocate their exclusion, and insist that they were "added later."

Excellent point made brother.
 
Chapter Heb 2: 3, 4In the sometimes heated discussions over the question of the duration of certain spiritual gifts, one argument has persisted from the side of charismatics: There is no prooftext that any spiritual gift has ceased. As impressive as this argument sounds, a couple of responses should be given. First, if the NT was written by men who in fact exercised these sign gifts, why should they say that such had ceased? It would be difficult to find a text in which this point would be explicit. Second, the NT apostles by and large expected the Lord’s return in their lifetime (cf. 1 Thess 4:15: “we who are alive, who are remaining until the coming of the Lord”). Hence, we should not expect them to make any statements regarding the cessation of gifts, since that would presuppose that they knew the Lord’s return would be delayed. In order to find such a statement, we would need to construct the following scenario: A member of an apostle’s band writes a letter after that apostle had died. Further, in the letter he finds some reason to explicitly mention something about sign gifts.

Such a scenario is difficult to imagine. Happily, the NT provides not only one, but two books that fit such a picture: Jude and Hebrews. And both address--to some degree at least--the issue of gifts and authority. Our purpose in this paper is to look more closely at one text, Hebrews 2:3-4.

Hebrews 2:3-4 is a text often put forth by cessationists that certain spiritual gifts have ceased. The text reads as follows: (3) pw'" hJmei'" ejkfeuxovmeqa thlikauvth" ajmelhvsante" swthriva" h{ti,” ajrchVn labou'sa lalei'sqai diaV tou' kurivou, uJpoV tw'n ajkousavntwn eij" hJma'" ejbebaiwvqh, (4) sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou' shmeivoi" te kaiV tevrasin kaiV poikivlai" dunavmesin kaiV pneuvmato" aJgivou merismoi'" kataV thVn aujtou' qevlhsin.(“[3] How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which was at first declared by the Lord, and was attested to us by those who heard him, [4] while God was also bearing them witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will”).

The argument that this text refers to the cessation of certain gifts is based on an inference in the text, viz., that since the first generation of Christians were explicitly eyewitnesses to certain sign gifts, the second generation of Christians was not. Usually books that address the issue of gifts don’t go further than this point. One has to wonder how valid it is, however.

Several things in the text need to be examined to see whether this text has any validity for the cessation of sign gifts. First, the genitive absolute in v 4 (sunepimarturou'nto" tou' qeou'/ “God bearing witness”) needs to be addressed. A couple of points should be mentioned.

(1) On a purely syntactical level, the genitive absolute does not of course relate to anything. But it is not like the vocative--that is, it is not extra-sentential. Rather, it is virtually a constructio ad sensum. That is, it is merely a Greek convention for expressing adverbial relations, usually of a temporal nature.

(2) Thus, it is neither helpful nor accurate to leave a genitive absolute dangling. The genitive absolute exists precisely because the subject of the genitive participle is different from the subject of the verb in the main clause. But the genitive absolute construction is still dependent on the time of the main verb.

(3) So to what is it semantically dependent? The genitive absolute is most naturally subordinated to the aorist ejbebaiwvqh (“was attested, confirmed”). To take it back to the future ejkfeuxovmeqa (“shall we escape”) in v 3 is stretching things, although the meaning would fit a continuationist position (“How shall we escape . . . while God bears witness with signs and wonders . . . ?”). Still, not only the distance, but the awkwardness of meaning poses a problem. That is, the conditional participle (ajmelhvsante") makes perfectly good sense (‘if we neglect. . .’) as the modifier of the future verb. But what is the relation of the genitive absolute construction to the verb? Over 90% of genitive absolute constructions are temporal (the next largest category is causal). If that is the case here, what is the meaning? Is it something like, “by what means can we possibly escape this great salvation while God is bearing witness to us”? The sense connection is lacking, no matter how you construe it. Take this a step further. It is even more improbable that the genitive absolute is subordinated to the conditional participle: “if we neglect . . . while God is bearing witness . . .” The force of the argument would have been considerably strengthened had the author said, “if we neglect so great a salvation which God bears witness to . . .” But that would require an adjectival participle--which, by definition, does not fit the genitive absolute construction. This leaves one of two options left: (a) the aorist indicative, ejbebaiwvqh, as the word to which the genitive absolute is semantically (not technically syntactically; see above) subordinate to. This makes perfectly good sense; besides, the structure fits most naturally: “it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God bore witness . . .” Or (b) the substantival aorist participle tw'n ajkousavntwn: the idea then would be that when eyewitnesses heard the message, God bore witness to them. This also makes good sense, and seems to be allowed for by the loose connection of the GA (genitive absolute construction) with the verbal element in the substantival participle. As such, it yields a nice text for cessationism. There are, however, three problems with it: (i) the aorist indicative is closer to the GA; (ii) GAs are normally semantically related to finite verbs (though they sometimes are attached to infinitives; I do not know of any examples off-hand in which they are attached to substantival participles, though this does not strike me as impossible); (iii) the overall meaning is more logically connected if the author is arguing that the confirmation was made by accompanying signs, rather than that the hearing was accompanied by such signs.
What are your sources?
 
I agree that the Apostles did more than just add to the scriptures. You said earlier -

When Paul wrote Ephesians, the nascent church was forming, and at that time apostles and prophets were active building the church, establishing orthodoxy, and refuting heresies to build the foundation of the faith.

I think the key point there is `building the church,` (the Body of Christ) Now we know from Hebrews that Jesus is the Apostle -

`....who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all his house. For this one (Jesus) has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honour than the house. For every house is built by someone but He who built all things is God.` (Heb. 3: 2 - 4)

Then looking at Paul`s writings by the Head through His Holy Spirit we see HOW the Body of Christ, (the house) is built.

`And He (Jesus) Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ...................... till .....

WHEN?

`we come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect, (mature) man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ; ....

What are the obstacles to that maturing?

`...that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive, but, speaking the truth in love grow up in all things into Him who is the Head - Christ -

BUILDING

`from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share cause the GROWTH of the Body for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 16)


So, my question is - `Has the Head of the Body finished BUILDING His Body to maturity in Himself?
 
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