who is "Frank"? Is he saved? Is he looking for fault or looking to edify other believers?
The Controversy Between Christ And Satan
- Thread starter Man-ofGod
- Start date
Permission to speak frankly?
Gene
Gene
You have my permission
Your friend,
Frankly
Your friend,
Frankly
Kind of reminds of the fellow who used the word, "surely"; and the other guy replied, "Don't call me Shirley!"
In other words, "Who's on first?"
In other words, "Who's on first?"
Thank you Paul, I appreciate that, but the question was not directed at you per se.
So, since I don't have permission to ask frank questions I'll try to explain where I'm coming from.
I was accused of not helping out, but I did help out, ...I reported SM's first post as contrary to CFS rules and regulations, my reasoning is: I was taught to always protect the flock, yes evangelizing is important, but never more important than the safety and security of the flock, then in trying to "help" this person there was an attempted exorcizing of a demon to no avail, ...so what happened, how does that affect and influence those among us who are weak in faith, babies in Christ, untaught, have they been edified, did they grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, was their faith built up with a failed exorcism or the experience of Christians being scammed by a troll?
Here is a verse my pastor taught me to always consider before speaking or doing something and to make certain I was never guilty of it,
...because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, 2Sa 12:1
That's where I'm coming from, I hope you can see it, and my Father knows who are His elect and He is big enough, powerful enough and loving enough to call SM into the Kingdom if and when it's his time, without sacrificing the safety and security of His lambs.
In His Love,
Gene
So, since I don't have permission to ask frank questions I'll try to explain where I'm coming from.
I was accused of not helping out, but I did help out, ...I reported SM's first post as contrary to CFS rules and regulations, my reasoning is: I was taught to always protect the flock, yes evangelizing is important, but never more important than the safety and security of the flock, then in trying to "help" this person there was an attempted exorcizing of a demon to no avail, ...so what happened, how does that affect and influence those among us who are weak in faith, babies in Christ, untaught, have they been edified, did they grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, was their faith built up with a failed exorcism or the experience of Christians being scammed by a troll?
Here is a verse my pastor taught me to always consider before speaking or doing something and to make certain I was never guilty of it,
...because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, 2Sa 12:1
That's where I'm coming from, I hope you can see it, and my Father knows who are His elect and He is big enough, powerful enough and loving enough to call SM into the Kingdom if and when it's his time, without sacrificing the safety and security of His lambs.
In His Love,
Gene
JPT: The same thing crossed my mind, and I thought at first (and still believe) that it was a prank. I said nothing because I fully expected to see someone call on the moderators, and have them run some interference. Instead, what I witnessed was some "street evangelizing". That's where a group of "newbies" gang up on a soul and each one begins to preach, without letting "...all things be done and in order."
The first time I went out to "evangelize", we were paired by two's: and we went door knocking. No one rejected us, and everyone we encountered was cordial. We asked everyone if they needed prayer, and one lady (around 60 years old) said yes, and invited us inside. Well, my partner was older than I, in years and in the Gospel, and he had the word. As the Brother spoke, the lady's cat was jumping and running all over the place; really hindering our work. I remained quiet, but prayed silently. I asked the Lord if it was His will for this lady to receive our prayers, to get the cat out of the way. It was a simple enough prayer. When I said my "amen", I looked up and couldn't find the cat. Then I saw the cat: he was curled up asleep, under a table!
The first time I went out to "evangelize", we were paired by two's: and we went door knocking. No one rejected us, and everyone we encountered was cordial. We asked everyone if they needed prayer, and one lady (around 60 years old) said yes, and invited us inside. Well, my partner was older than I, in years and in the Gospel, and he had the word. As the Brother spoke, the lady's cat was jumping and running all over the place; really hindering our work. I remained quiet, but prayed silently. I asked the Lord if it was His will for this lady to receive our prayers, to get the cat out of the way. It was a simple enough prayer. When I said my "amen", I looked up and couldn't find the cat. Then I saw the cat: he was curled up asleep, under a table!
I did not see the "exorcism" was at work, I guess? Is that still posted? And as one who has "some" experience in these things, I could see no great harm being done to the Lord and His good name? No, I think maybe some in their zeal, was maybe stepping out into some unclear areas of what was known about this person who claimed to be "possessed". The spirit realm is not always cut and dry and dealing with these sort of people is not always clear. So I kinda, admire those who stepped out beyond the normal religious box, and know from my own experience that this is how we learn some of these unclear things. I also agree in part, with your post, that this person maybe should have been cut-off by the mods, before it went as far as it did?
I'm with you Mario, had the same thing happen with my cat when the youth were coming to our house for Bible Study, normally she wouldn't have anything to do with other people, but she was climbing all over them, playing with the pages in their Bibles, finally had to put her in the bathroom, ...then the caterwauling began. LOL
Blessings,
Gene
Blessings,
Gene
Mitspa, I'll probably catch some flack for this, but from what I have gleaned from the Word we don't invite the world into the church, yes I know that we bring people to church and the Lord sends people to a church, but what I'm talking about is the attitude of come one come all with whatever doctrine, philosophy, thinking, agenda they might have, and yes I know it's standard procedure in the churches today, but is it correct?
The gathering together of the Body is to be Holy, set apart, reverent in an attitude of praise and worship, a safe haven for those that are scared or frightened, a hospital for those that are hurting, a sanctuary, clean, pure, holy to meet God and worship Him in spirit and truth, to commune with Him, ...and a Christian forum where two or more are gathered in the name of the Lord qualifies as a church according to Jesus, ...now here's the problem, how do we accomplish that in a public forum on the internet, because I'm certain there are scared, frightened, hurting, sick members here that won't post or speak up and there are those that desire fellowship, those that want to praise and worship the Lord here on this forum also.
Since we have this dilemma we need to be extra care to protect the weak, feeble and hurting and even more conscience of not allowing our flesh to rear it's ugly head, there are good guidelines posted as sticky's at the top of every category, if we were more attentive to this guidance there would be a lot less of the flesh and a whole lot more of walking in the Spirit and the manifesting of the fruit of the Spirit (Agape Love), for the world to observe.
Who knows, maybe the watching world might even call us Christians Acts 11:26.
May the Lord richly bless you all,
Gene
The gathering together of the Body is to be Holy, set apart, reverent in an attitude of praise and worship, a safe haven for those that are scared or frightened, a hospital for those that are hurting, a sanctuary, clean, pure, holy to meet God and worship Him in spirit and truth, to commune with Him, ...and a Christian forum where two or more are gathered in the name of the Lord qualifies as a church according to Jesus, ...now here's the problem, how do we accomplish that in a public forum on the internet, because I'm certain there are scared, frightened, hurting, sick members here that won't post or speak up and there are those that desire fellowship, those that want to praise and worship the Lord here on this forum also.
Since we have this dilemma we need to be extra care to protect the weak, feeble and hurting and even more conscience of not allowing our flesh to rear it's ugly head, there are good guidelines posted as sticky's at the top of every category, if we were more attentive to this guidance there would be a lot less of the flesh and a whole lot more of walking in the Spirit and the manifesting of the fruit of the Spirit (Agape Love), for the world to observe.
Who knows, maybe the watching world might even call us Christians Acts 11:26.
May the Lord richly bless you all,
Gene
Well, I did agree with part of your earlier post. I know you understand that "weak" and "hurting" people are often a big mess. I do not disagree with any rule , but all rules should be subject to the love of God. There is a lot of judgment about how rules should be enforced, those who are placed in those positions, must answer to God with their own conscience. This is not an organized assembly, with a God ordain elders etc.. But it is and should be a place "where Christ is in the midst". I personally would not allow a poster with the name "satans messenger" but I know that God works best and most, not in restrictive rules, but in liberty constrained by love. So I don't have all the answers, I don't know the best way to enforce the rules. If I was in charge, their would be very few legalist allowed, but someone might miss something important that legalist had to say or teach? Even if it came from their errors? So, I hope I was some help? Blessings and peace and thank you for your kind and reasonable questions.
What does the Bible say to do with a contentious spirit? After the 1st and 2nd admonition have nothing further to do with them. So one claiming to be Satan's voice come to your Christian gathering, what do you do? Embrace them and say "Welcome Satan..come in my brother after all we are all equals here? I love you Satan worshipper, I accept you? I believe we first discern whether they are simply confused and seeking God or whether they are rejecting and mocking God, then if they are one who claims to have no choice but is one compelled, and Satan is moving them and their mouth, do we embrace them in love or try and free them?
All we can do is point them to Christ praying and if they reject that as well I say do what Jesus did and called the disciples to do...call out that spirit...call the Lord to rebuke that spirit...cast out that spirit...that the soul might be saved, and pray that one accepts Christ and would be filled with the Spirit once the spirit has left otherwise 7 more may return to the clean house and take up residence there...
Is this wrong? Show me in the word...I love the person but will not tolerate or love that spirit...the person is not my enemy and the weapons of my warfare are not carnal...
Love the devil? Hmmm? What would Peter or Paul have done?
brother Paul
All we can do is point them to Christ praying and if they reject that as well I say do what Jesus did and called the disciples to do...call out that spirit...call the Lord to rebuke that spirit...cast out that spirit...that the soul might be saved, and pray that one accepts Christ and would be filled with the Spirit once the spirit has left otherwise 7 more may return to the clean house and take up residence there...
Is this wrong? Show me in the word...I love the person but will not tolerate or love that spirit...the person is not my enemy and the weapons of my warfare are not carnal...
Love the devil? Hmmm? What would Peter or Paul have done?
brother Paul
Hold on a min. bro Paul, the scripture does not define a contentious "spirit" and this is not a organized body.
If it was, the elders and leaders of that body would make the judgment. And Paul and Peter cast-out evil spirits, not cast out people .
No one has said "love the devil" that is dishonest to make that charge.
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Beloved, I have never met a believer who is not a "legalist": everyone believes they are right, or at least correct.
Do some believe that only faith in Jesus saves? Yep. Are they apt to change their minds? Probably not. And we could go on.
Could that belief be interpreted as "legalist" by someone? Well, not by one who is like minded.
The Apostle Paul admonishes us: "But a heretic, after the second and third admonition, reject." So now, we would have to
make a decision whether (for example) I am a heretic to some in this forum. We would have to stand on our [legalism]
beliefs. (OUCH!) But i daresay that that is not the case, but I believe most of us are seeking common ground to worship
and praise the Lord Jesus, Amen!
But as far as allowing someone with a name that would be contrary to our faith, I would agree with Brother Paul. I don't
know that the moderators have a way to take that person aside privately: to advice him, or rebuke him??? But if that person
is being very disruptive...show him his hat, and say: "Do you understand?"
Do some believe that only faith in Jesus saves? Yep. Are they apt to change their minds? Probably not. And we could go on.
Could that belief be interpreted as "legalist" by someone? Well, not by one who is like minded.
The Apostle Paul admonishes us: "But a heretic, after the second and third admonition, reject." So now, we would have to
make a decision whether (for example) I am a heretic to some in this forum. We would have to stand on our [legalism]
beliefs. (OUCH!) But i daresay that that is not the case, but I believe most of us are seeking common ground to worship
and praise the Lord Jesus, Amen!
But as far as allowing someone with a name that would be contrary to our faith, I would agree with Brother Paul. I don't
know that the moderators have a way to take that person aside privately: to advice him, or rebuke him??? But if that person
is being very disruptive...show him his hat, and say: "Do you understand?"
If this was an assembly, organized and ordained by God? Then the leadership, elders etc.. would have that responsibility. I have defined legalism, and legalism is heresy. But I have learned much in my debates with legalist, I had to answer some hard questions and dig deep into the truth to give answer in defense of the gospel. If we all where forced to agree, it would not be an "open" forum. Legalism is not knowing and being confident in the truth, its self-righteousness in all its religious forms and works.
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Exactly! Thats what I was saying...love the person but not the possessing spirit...I realize that a contentious spirit can speak of human person as well but which was it, at which point were we speaking to...sometimes a human sometimes their lord...I wish we could have continued with SM, I think we had her on the edge...it looked like she needed to be directed to a local loving fellowship, she obviously had been hurt in life, but would a person as long as they are directed by his minions ever go? She needed to separate herself from her "self" which was sold out to worshipping Satan.
One could see what we (brothers and sisters in the Lord) on these forums as being contentious, but we do not exalt one another against Christ. Wanting to separate a person from an influential spirit (and calling it that) so one can get the person under the conviction of the word and Spirit so they will seek Christ IS love not hate...
Just my $.02
in His love
brother Paul
Hi Gene,
I am happy that you have a love and concern for the flock, however if you had concern you could have started a thread to discuss your concerns so that the flock could learn from the experience. Presenting scripture in a thread would teach a lot more than casting out what you see as problems as if the flock is not going to come upon these same type of circumstances in their life. You could have presented the gospel to the person and said our forum rules state.... privately since you said that God told you not to speak on this thread if your concern was both for the flock and the person.
I don't believe this is a formal setting and I would agree that in a formal setting the assembly should not be disrupted. Did you however speak to Brother Paul privately about the exorcism? Did you speak to me privately about my continuing to minister?
Pulling someone off does nothing to teach those who are weak in faith. You could have started a thread to teach what you believe and this could have been debated with scripture.
In the bible I see rebuke toward the believers, not toward the world. This person on here, obviously wasn't a believer and was in need of salvation. If I was in the wrong, God would definitely have told me to stop. I already thought about the trolling, about the confession being false etc., about the Molly name being a mocking of me, yet I in no way regret the seeds I planted. The flock needs to learn consistent love even when being persecuted, ridiculed etc. The Lord did however reveal a demonic impression to me, so this person does have some demonic influence in their life. He revealed the same thing to me about another person on this forum, who now claims to have a witch in their life and to have been involved in witchcraft and that person isn't making it up. I am not concerned about demons at all. I ignore that. I am concerned about someone putting their belief and faith into demons however. If your concern is for the flock there is plenty of opportunity to teach them on here.
I say this to you in love and hope that you and all here are blessed with great wisdom from God.
Olivia
I also want to say that I too am concerned for the flock. Are the flock prepared or only being fed milk. The flock rather than being protected needs to learn how to deal and be a part of them so they can be prepared for further things.
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Seems like an assembly to me, however hectic it may sometimes seem. It may not be formal, but...
I have been invited to meetings where the forum was open, the microphone lay on the pulpit, and anyone could get up and
speak what was in their spirit...almost like CFS.
In a meeting/assembly, however informal, someone has to take a leadership role. The role in this forum seems to placed with
the moderators, helpers, etc.
Beloved, the Gospel does not need defending: neither do mercy and grace.
Now you have defined legalism as heresy: that could put a lot of believers in that category: unless your definition of heresy is more stringent than your definition of legalism. Of course, if I ascribed to your definition of legalism, than that might put you, in my eyes, in the group with the heretics!
I think you meant to say that "Legalism is not knowing the truth, and being confident in self-righteousness in all its religious forms and works." Does that apply only to the person who does not know/believe in the Lord Jesus, but relies solely on their own perceptions and works to be righteous before God? What about the persons who believe in the Lord Jesus, but have been taught
that all they have to do is say "Jesus is Lord", and go on their merry way; or must be baptized, with no other evidence of truth; or that they must go out and witness, as proof of their conversion?
"Return unto me...if you take forth the precious from the vile, you shall be as my mouth: let them return unto you, but don't you return unto them."
I actually agree with you here Olivia...though SM was not part of the flock I think we were both giving her important things to think about. I only did what the Apostles would have done...if there was no real spirit involved I think that would have become apparent. Sometimes people adopt these positions because they are looking for protection (an inner wish for vengeance) from the pains of this world and I was beginning to get her to talk about this. Notice I did not call the Mods...
I agree
We are indeed called to make a defense of the gospel and give answer for the hope of the gospel. I been writing on legalism since I have been on this forum, you should have some understanding of what I mean by the term, seeing much of my conversation has been with you. Now if I really thought that salvation was just some words that where said, I would be missing the most important aspect of salvation? Where a believer is "born-again" and receives Gods Spirit. Gods law "written on their heart". In the end this is the only true biblical obedience, (to what is in ones heart).