The Dangers Of The Pre-tribulation Rapture Doctrine.

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Euphemia said:
Revelation 13:7 (NLT)
And the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation.

They are the Jews. antichrist will have a major agenda to eradicate the Jews from the earth.
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It doesn't say neither Israel nor Jewish nation. It clearly says Saints.
 
Do you want to learn or do you want to argue, answer the question of who the Saints are by looking at where they will be and what they will do for all Eternity Rev 7:14, 15

Answer that question yourself and I will explain more to you, ...if you want to learn, ...I'm not here to argue!

Blessings,

Gene
 
JustPassingThru said:
The Revelation tells us who they are and here is the key to understanding it,

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; Rev 1:19

What did John see? Jesus Christ glorified, chapter 1

What are the things which are? The Church, chapters 2 & 3

What are the things to come? Come after what, the Church, starting with chapt 4:1 through the rest of the book, it's all layed out chronologically.

What does Chapt 4:1 say,

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:1

After this, John was the itinerant pastor to the seven churches, they were located on a Roman postal route, just look at the map in the back of your Bible, the seven churches named are in a circle, hence after the Church, where did the Voice (Jesus in the first chapter) say to him (symbolic or representing the church) come up here! Where is up here? After the Bride (Church) is with Jesus we are told what is going to happen on planet earth, Chapt 6-19 the Tribulation, so you answer your own question, who will be the saints that come out of the Trib, here is a hint for you, where will they be and what will they do for all of Eternity, Rev 7:14, 15

Blessing,

Gene
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So, basically, you are admitting that the Saints are the church?
 
JustPassingThru said:
Do you want to learn or do you want to argue, answer the question of who the Saints are by looking at where they will be and what they will do for all Eternity Rev 7:14, 15
Answer that question yourself and I will explain more to you, ...if you want to learn, ...I'm not here to argue!

Blessings,

Gene
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If you are not here to discuss you can move to another thread. We will survive without you. Don't worry.
 
JustPassingThru said:
Stop beating around the bush and answer the question
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Explain what's your point more clearly. You make reference to two verses that, in my opinion, refer to the church, and you ask me to provide you with an answer? I already gave you an answer: the Saints are clearly the church.
 
SergioL said:
It doesn't say neither Israel nor Jewish nation. It clearly says Saints.
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The only saints on earth at that time will be the Jews who have received their Messiah and some people who have received Christ---but that will not be the Church.
 
Euphemia said:
The only saints on earth at that time will be the Jews who have received their Messiah and some people who have received Christ---but that will not be the Church.
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Without the Holy Spirit there can be no community of Saints. The Holy Spirit is what leads us to all truth, including the fact that Jesus is the Son of God. Therefore, without the Holy Spirit, there can be no conversions.
 
SergioL said:
Explain what's your point more clearly. You make reference to two verses that, in my opinion, refer to the church, and you ask me to provide you with an answer? I already gave you an answer: the Saints are clearly the church.
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The Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4---because as the Bride of Christ, she has gone to be with her Bridegroom.
 
SergioL said:
Without the Holy Spirit there can be no community of Saints. The Holy Spirit is what leads us to all truth, including the fact that Jesus is the Son of God. Therefore, without the Holy Spirit, there can be no conversions.
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Holy Spirit will be working at that time, but in the same way as He did during the Old Covenant. God will be choosing to proclaim the Lord through His special prophets and witnesses---specially anointed and empowered.
 
Euphemia said:
The Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4---because as the Bride of Christ, she has gone to be with her Bridegroom.
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All of what you are saying is based not on the Bible, but on traditions of your congregation. The doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture forces you to twist the clear meaning of the verses.
 
Euphemia said:
Holy Spirit will be working at that time, but in the same way as He did during the Old Covenant. God will be choosing to proclaim the Lord through His special prophets and witnesses---specially anointed and empowered.
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Where do you get these things? Provide clear verses supporting your assertions. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with us for all eternity (John 14:16)
 
SergioL said:
All of what you are saying is based not on the Bible, but on traditions of your congregation. The doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture forces you to twist the clear meaning of the verses.
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Everything I say and believe comes from studying the word. No twisting, just plain reading and studying with the direction of Holy Spirit.
 
Euphemia said:
Everything I say and believe comes from studying the word. No twisting, just plain reading and studying with the direction of Holy Spirit.
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Then support those assertions with clear verses from the Bible, please. All of this theory about the Holy Spirit abandoning the believers when they need Him the most is 100% against the Scriptures.
 
SergioL said:
Where do you get these things? Provide clear verses supporting your assertions. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with us for all eternity (John 14:16)
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Sure, Holy Spirit is with us---and we will be in Heaven with Jesus. But He is going to be in the world during the Tribulation the same way as He was in the world during the Old Covenant age. The Church age will be DONE. The Tribulation age is for God's agenda for Israel to come to fruition, where all Israel will receive their Messiah!
 
SergioL said:
Then support those assertions with clear verses from the Bible, please. All of this theory about the Holy Spirit abandoning the believers when they need Him the most is 100% against the Scriptures.
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Where do you get the idea that Holy Spirit abandons believers? When we are complete, and resurrected with imperishable new bodies, we are never without God!

You are misunderstanding.
 
Euphemia said:
Sure, Holy Spirit is with us---and we will be in Heaven with Jesus. But He is going to be in the world during the Tribulation the same way as He was in the world during the Old Covenant age. The Church age will be DONE. The Tribulation age is for God's agenda for Israel to come to fruition, where all Israel will receive their Messiah!
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That makes no sense. When I quote 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 people say that what is holding back the Antichrist is the Holy Spirit, but now you are telling me that the Holy Spirit will be on the Earth during the Great Tribulation. o_O
 
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