Emergency! Full speed astern!
The judgment seat of Christ: Dividing wheat from tares by works.
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Brother, you're turning the dead horse (this thread) into hamburger.
How much must a Christian 'love His name in deed and truth' before they are 'accepted by Him'?
True, but I'm not of the persuasion that the regenerate Christian will see the GWT (
John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.)
Although the tares will, as you have said.
I think you misunderstand the context of the verse. He was warning believers that they would suffer trials (v.12). Not that they are actively murderers and thieves but not to be accused or found guilty as such. Yet, if you find yourself before the authorities, for the offense of claiming Christ, do not be ashamed.
1 Peter 4:12-15
Suffering for God’s Glory
12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are [e]reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. [f]On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a [g]busybody in other people’s matters.
this is %100 correct there will be no True Born Again Christians at the great white throne judgement . i would hate to be a new convert not knowing the Bible and read this.. thinking i could still go to hell..
Is that good or bad???Brother, you're turning the dead horse (this thread) into hamburger.
Three (3) times I have asked you to limit your questions to me to ONE at a Time. I am sure that everyone else is able to carry 10 or 12 comments with them at a time....but I can not.
So then, I will respond to your 1st question........."Then who does the Scriptures say are Christians? They were first called Christians in Antioch. Why?"
In Acts 11:26.......
"So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch."
"Were called" in the Greek is a derogatory phrase used by the Gentiles as a insult, like the use of Moonies today.
Just as a note, the disciples never use the phrase themselves. They keep to such terms as the “brethren” (Acts 15:1), and the “saints” (Acts 9:13), and “those of the way” (Acts 9:2).
That depends on whether you're a horse or a connoisseur of horse burgers.
My dear friend.......NO one has to agree with me on anything whatsoever.Whew. For a second there, I thought you were referring to me as a swine-hoot dog for disagreeing with you. But, I see your point.
First off, I agree that the Scripture applies to believers and unbelievers alike. To us naming His name, and to those not naming His name.
And, I think we can not narrow our conundrum to something specific: You are conflating two different things, and applying them both to the judgment seat of Christ.
The first is only about having the name Christian, and the second is only about being worthy of Christian fellowship.
Act 11:26 And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
The Scripture says nothing about Christians being worthy of the name of not, but only about how they were named Christians, who named Christ.
1Pe 4:15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
The scripture says nothing about someone unworthy of the name Christian, as not being named a Christian by Christ.
In Scripture, everyone naming Christ is called a Christian. Being worthy of the name and fellowship of Christ, has nothing to do with Scripture still calling us Christians.
We have the right and duty to forbid Christian fellowship to anyone, that we judge unworthy of being a Christian.
However, so long as anyone is confessing faith in Christ, we have no right by Scripture, to forbid them being called a Christian. Scripture still calls them Christians, even if doing evil. We don't necessarily have to call anyone shaming the name of Christ, a Christian, but we can't call them non-Christians, because the Lord Himself doesn't.
You're doctrinal justification to say some people naming Christ, are not Christians, does not forbid the Lord from having them appear at His judgment seat, along with all Christians naming His name.
Tit 1:13 Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
We can frankly say a Christian and brother, is not being a Christian nor a brother, and is not worthy of the name, but we still can't declare anyone still confessing His name, that he is not a Christian and is a non-believer.
And even if someone does so, the Lord will just go ahead and keep His word, and have them appear at His seat with all Christians confessing Him Christ. (And then He can have a talk about who has the right, to say who He can call a Christian or not.)
No one says we can't. They are Christians we judge unworthy of our fellowship. And if they are Christians confessing Christ, then they too will appear at His judgment seat:
2Co 5:9 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
We all must appear, is we all that name Christ, whether departing from evil or not.
2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
The sure foundation of Christ is His judgment seat, where we all must stand who name His name
True again. Which is what we are duty-bound to judge on earth with anyone naming Christ.
That does not make anyone a non-Christian not naming Christ, that Christ does not have appear at His seat to judge once for all.
This is now my 4th time asking you to shorten up your posts to "me" if you want me to respond. I have some health issues that just do not allow me to read all that well now after surgery, but you do not seem to able to do that.
Never been called a horse before......but a deacon once called me a horses A _ _!......Does that count?That depends on whether you're a horse or a connoisseur of horse burgers.
Holy cow......you are just as intelligent as crossnote said you were!
Correct..........excellent point!
This whole topic is rather befuddling to me. It seems to me that we are talking about something that is actually someone's "opinion".
I am wondering if you will agree with me in that in Matthew 7:21-23, those people to whom Jesus says, "I never knew you," had not lived in harmony with Jesus. They had not accepted Jesus as Lord!
They were never part of Jesus's team. They did not seek His kingdom and righteousness on earth. They sought harmony with the world in an attempt to acquire power or recognition within its kingdoms. Consequently, Jesus did not have intimacy with them. They were not walking in faith and obedience and were not saved Christians and as a result, they were not part of His kingdom before that day of judgment, and they will not be included as Christians at the GWT Judgment.
Opinion? whose?
I believe those people whom Jesus 'never knew', were never born again. (He did not 'know them). Consequently, Jesus does not have intimacy with them..
The problem with those in Mt 7:21-23 is that they were trying to justify themselves instead of seeing that their justification comes from God alone. Proud peacocks shall we say?
True, I believe they failed to see their own sinfulness, and consequently had no need of Jesus as their Savior.
John 6:28-29 KJV
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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It seems to me that the OP has placed a lot of stock for his argument on Romans 10:9, but has neglected to consider the ramifications of Romans 10:10 which blows his argument that everyone who confesses Christ with their mouth is a Christian. As far as orthodox theology is concerned, only people who are saved can be genuinely called Christians, not just professors of Christ, but possessors of Christ.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
No, of course not. That's not at all the teaching nor the intention. How can redeemed lovers of God and their neighbors, be rejected by their Redeemer? How can any of their works forgiven and forgotten by Him, be remembered at His judgment seat?
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Heb 8:12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
But, since evil deeds are also spoken of at His seat, then there will be others appearing to answer for them. Since only Christian believers will appear, then it must be the unredeemed half-hearted believers spoken of in Scripture:
Psa 12:2They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
Rev{3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Unless there is Scripture proving otherwise, He will do so from His mouth at His judgment seat.
Personally, I don't understand why it's so hard to believe, that good hearted Christians and bad hearted Christians appear at His seat. The Scriptures certainly speak of it. Why can't the Lord separate the good believers from the bad? Who objects? Who is it that counsels the Lord not to do so? We can get overzealous like Peter:
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
We know what the Lord said to him, when trying to tell the Lord how to conduct His business, which only He can and has a right to do.
I can think of two plausible reasons why any forgiven Christian that loves the Lord, would at times object:
1. If our faith is weak. If we have doubts about all our past sins being truly forgiven and forgotten by the Lord. Afterall, how many times does the devil come to remind us of them? How many times do we remind ourselves? And yet, the righteous Lord, that does not acquit the guilty, has truly forgotten them all? Yes.
And so, we see faith in the Lord's promises is necessary to rest in the knowledge, that even though there will be evil deeds remembered at His seat, we need not fear:
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Our trust in Him includes our faith toward Him, that He will not mention them at His seat, because He does not remember them. Even when the accuser comes to remind Him of our old sins, He can only say, "What sins? I don't remember any of them. Get thee hence, Satan."
2. If the lukewarm Christians also appear at His seat, the same as the pure hearted believers, then all will not be rejoicing and gladness. Afterall, neither the Lord nor His people of mercy are ever glad to see the unrighteous fall:
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Not until the new heaven and earth are all tears wiped away once for all:
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Agreed. No redeemed born again believer in the body of Jesus Christ, will be rejected by Him at His judgment seat, but will wholeheartedly be recieved unto Himself, just as promised.
And unfortunately, unless there is Scripture saying otherwise, the believers that live like devils, will also appear at His seat with the wheat.
Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
They will not escape the GWT judgment, because their unrepented evil will be remembered. They will not be accepted into the first blessed resurrection of His saints.
It's when the Lord comes again from that far country, that He will receive unto Himself His profitable servants and cast out the unprofitable.
Unless there is Scripture showing otherwise, that would certainly be at His judgment seat, where the wheat is separated from the chaff.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord...And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying Christians will also be present at the GWTJ? Correct me if I am wrong.
Their response should have been similar to this... (Luke 17:10)
So you also, when you have done everything commanded of you, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”
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The Bible doesn't speak of "good" Christians and "bad" Christians.
There are two kinds of people......the Saved and the Lost.
What the Bible does say is that those who say the right words but live in know sin where never saved in the 1st place. Being a "good Christian" is not in any way Biblical and goes against the Gospel of the Lord Jesus because it actually adds the idea of WOKS to our salvation.
You said..........
"And unfortunately, unless there is Scripture saying otherwise, the believers that live like devils, will also appear at His seat with the wheat".
Now maybe that is coming from the "Oneness Pentecostal" theology that you post, but actually you are inviting the Universalist Theology that everyone will in the end be saved.
Even the Scripture you used validate that idea........
Jas 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
That Scripture has no reference at all to the topic at hand.
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