The Key To Understanding Why All The Different Denominations

[Major]

Major, while I agree that faith is the key element in a solid Christian's life, and I reject orchestrated "miracle services" as show or worse, I do know by experience that amazing things can happen via the Lord these days too.

However: What has happened to me has always come by surprise, not begged for, not "prayed down" and not in a crowded church, but in the field when God saw a need that I alone could not fulfill. It's God's emergency method to reach the unsaved. I don't agree that it is a weekly routine performed every Sunday for those that already have the Gospel in hand.

We are thinking alike Rusty.

God moves when He wants to NOT when we call Him down to perform a sign or a miracle or a wonder.

These orchestrated events are or should be an embarrsmentto the true believers today. They are an open rejection of Biblical teaching where we are told to live by faith and NOT Works.

 

[Major]

I think we have all overlooked another alternative - we asume that there are many denominations because of human error, human difference and doctrinal disputes but in the BIGGER picture Jesus is building His church. A quick overview of church history will give us all a piece of humble pie - no matter what denomination you belong to it will have man made doctrines but it will also have true biblical doctrine - no church is perfect.

If we consider most of the New Testament is written to churches with PROBLEMS. Did the apostles cast out those churches and say "mine is better than yours nah nah nah nah"? No they did not, they addressed the problems in those churches in the cultural context in which they found them.

I personally have been to three different denominations on the same day and guess what - they all preached similar messages. The reason why - because the Holy Spirit is active in the churches.

A few hundred years ago the Baptist churches believed in hyper-Calvinism which meant they had no concern for missions as they believed the Great Commission had been fulfilled and that evangelising the lost was Gods problem and man had no part in it. God raised up William Carey who against huge opposition in the Baptist church managed to establish the first Baptist misionary society and went to work in India. This opened up the entire church to missions and subsequently the hyper-Calvanism was watered down.

The moral of the story is that God raises up people within His church to bring them back from error and to fulfill His plans. This has happened over and over again in the history of the church and will not stop now.

Lets stop, as Christians, denomination bashing because we do not know it all, we are not God. We cannot say how many people are Christian or not because only God knows.

BTW - if you want to see miracles come to Africa!

Kevin........my point brother is that WE SHOULD NOT NEED OR WANT TO SEE MIRACLES.

We have the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ which is the power of God unto salvation. We are not saved by what we see but we ARE saved by what Jesus did for us.

The Holy Spirit is active in churches, that is a fact BUT He is NOT some codmic force that we can hail and He responds to our beck and call to do what we want. It just does not work that way my brother.

 

[Major]

Why just not explain to him that the gospel is preached all over the world with S-W-M following.
God has basically given up on Western Christianity because most churches threw His method
of evangelizing in the trash MANY years ago.

I've explained the how's, why's, and wherefore's ... but to the blind, it's waste of time.
And some are too busy popping babies to get out of their little town to see the world.
Others wouldn't believe a miracle from God even if He hit them over the head with it.
I hope someone may benefit from my spiritual experiences and revelations,
which all line up perfectly with the NT Scriptures.

Ev'77.

I love you my brother and I do not want to argue with you. You tend to make comments to others and then respond in somewhat of a non-friendly manner because I/We do not agree with you.

You said.......
"Why just not explain to him that the gospel is preached all over the world with S-W-M following."

The question you posed is, 'Can others do miracles like the apostles, since Mark 16:17-18 describes "and these signs will follow those who believe in my name they will cast out demons they will speak in other tongues and… will heal the sick."

Now we these particular verses are not found in the majority of the manuscripts. But Lets grant that it is since they are what you have grasped onto.The answer is found in a careful examination of the text. Where we find in the Mark 16:14 narrative that Jesus is speaking to the 11 and commissions them to preach the Gospel first then baptizing the believers. So we find that the Lord is in fact speaking directly to the apostles just before he is taken up into Heaven (verse 19). Afterward, the apostles went out and preached, and the Lord was working with them confirming His Word through accompanying signs.



The "them" is referring to the apostles, therefore, there is no evidence that all believers can do what the apostles did. What did occur is the word was first preached and the signs and wonders followed to validate the new leadership for the Church. In much the same way Jesus’ miracles were to validate his person and message. Signs and wonders were to follow those who believe, not the believer following after the signs. Acts14:3 shows their focus was to build people up in the objective word, not looking for the power to do miracles. Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Signs and wonders, miracles are not for the Christians who already believe, they accompanied the Gospel and were done in the presence of the unbelievers to have them believe in the message.
Now......you are free to reject that and by your own words you have done just that. But here is the problem for me.......................you go on to say:
"I've explained the how's, why's, and wherefore's ... but to the blind, it's waste of time.
And some are too busy popping babies to get out of their little town to see the world.
Others wouldn't believe a miracle from God even if He hit them over the head with it."
You see, my brother you are judging others to be wrong, blind and actually dumb because I.We do not accept your denominational teaching.
Personally, I am not doing that to you. IF you choose to believe those things, fine with me. I just do not understand why it is so important for you to demean those who do not accept your theology.

 

[Glomung]

Lots of S-W-M folks make a lot of claims. OK, but where the rubber hits the road is..
are any of these claims true?

Are their "signs and wonders" anything more than show?
Are the people they "heal" actually healed?
Does all that "praise and worship" actually produce virtue?

From where I have stood the answer to each of these is a resounding NO.

 

[Major]

Lots of S-W-M folks make a lot of claims. OK, but where the rubber hits the road is..
are any of these claims true?

Are their "signs and wonders" anything more than show?
Are the people they "heal" actually healed?
Does all that "praise and worship" actually produce virtue?

From where I have stood the answer to each of these is a resounding NO.

And you would be correct.

 

[evangelist-77]

"... in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God
... I have fully preached the gospel of Christ." (Romans 15:19)

I can say Amen to this ... but not nearly as much as Paul, that's for sure!
That's why I present God's Plan for evangelizing to those who don't understand.
However, it seems to be a waste of time here.
As Calvin says, maybe in time God will change you.

 

[calvin]

Acts 4:29. And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness,
Acts 4:30. while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus."
Acts 4:31. And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
This was after some further persecution by the pharisees, and after the citing of Psa 2:1.
Nowhere in this account is there any example of the Apostles doing anything other than preaching the gospel against a backdrop of persecution and opposition.
This alone suggests that swm is not to be expected on Sunday down at the local chapel while politely chatting over a mug of coffee and a plate of cookies.
Rusty sir! you stole my thunder.. as I read one of Major's replies I thought of Aladdin's genie too.
That is the point.....The Holy spirit should be listened to, telling us what is what. We should not expect or hope for anything other that the will of God to be made known amongst us.......not our will be done, but His will be done.
In the text cited above, the apostles only specific request was for boldness to proclaim the Gospel against a backdrop of hostile unbelief.
And the only specific request for things miraculous was for healing.
And what better healing would there be other that spiritual healing...restoring broken relationships between the Lord and those He loves so dearly?
In other words I believe their main focus was on preaching Christ and that preaching was not so as to hear their own voices, but to see the Holy Spirit bring people to repentance and salvation......to heal the rift.

 

[Kevin]

Kevin........my point brother is that WE SHOULD NOT NEED OR WANT TO SEE MIRACLES.

We have the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ which is the power of God unto salvation. We are not saved by what we see but we ARE saved by what Jesus did for us.

The Holy Spirit is active in churches, that is a fact BUT He is NOT some codmic force that we can hail and He responds to our beck and call to do what we want. It just does not work that way my brother.

Hi Major,

When Jesus spoke about an evil generation seeking miracles, in context He was speaking about people who want to test the Holy Spirit. If we have an evil desire in our hearts to put God to the test then obviously seeking miracles for this purpose is not godly.

Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit and with the Holy Spirit comes empowerment for ministry. We should desire miracles, NOT TO TEST THE SPIRIT OF GOD OR TO PUFF OURSELVES UP OR TO MAKE MONEY, but to set people free from bondage to disease and suffering. We should seek the power of the Holy Spirit out of compassion and love for the lost - just like Jesus did.

Many, many minsitries have been established through power encounters of Christ over demonic forces. We tend to think of our present time and condition, but go back a few centuries and see how misisonaries in Africa, Asia, the Pacific, how God worked miracles through them and established the kingdom of God in those place. This was long before the advent of Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.

 

[Major]

Hi Major,

When Jesus spoke about an evil generation seeking miracles, in context He was speaking about people who want to test the Holy Spirit. If we have an evil desire in our hearts to put God to the test then obviously seeking miracles for this purpose is not godly.

Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit and with the Holy Spirit comes empowerment for ministry. We should desire miracles, NOT TO TEST THE SPIRIT OF GOD OR TO PUFF OURSELVES UP OR TO MAKE MONEY, but to set people free from bondage to disease and suffering. We should seek the power of the Holy Spirit out of compassion and love for the lost - just like Jesus did.

Many, many minsitries have been established through power encounters of Christ over demonic forces. We tend to think of our present time and condition, but go back a few centuries and see how misisonaries in Africa, Asia, the Pacific, how God worked miracles through them and established the kingdom of God in those place. This was long before the advent of Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.

Kevin........I have to agree with Rusty's comment #43.

 

[Major]

Church history is one of my fields of deep research, and missions especially so. I own around 3,000 Christian books of many denominations, and mission stories are particularly relevant for me. Original mission books of the 1800's that I own are quite clear: God used miracles in EXTREME situations, not as common-every-Sunday-altar-call events.

He used plain ordinary God inspired preaching much more often then miracles. He used the pricking of heathen consciences while listening to missionaries or their converted friends or in dreams, He used providential circumstances witnessed only by the unsaved quite often, He used salvation from deadly animals, fire and flood with and without the pleadings of the unchurched or converted.

But SWM as promoted today....very very rarely.

Why? As Pharaoh's priests "created" snakes before Moses, the devil has had 4000 years of demonic manifestations to keep the pagan and heathen in awe and wonder. God does not need to take "second billing" to him, nor does He wish to look like the Cowboy with the White Hat, doing things like the bad Black Hat Cowboy.

However, sadly: some Christian folks want the flash bang of miracles and discount His usual free will methods.

Spot on Rusty!

The bottom line IMO, and experience, is that when the emotion of a "perceived" S-W-M has evaporated, then the person is left to his own devices and mental concerns to come up with another emotional happening to fill that void of emotional release.

IF...IF....we seek a S-W-M, we are NOT living by faith and the Scripture's say that "ANYTHING which is not of FAITH is sin".

 

[Major]

"... in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God
... I have fully preached the gospel of Christ." (Romans 15:19)

I can say Amen to this ... but not nearly as much as Paul, that's for sure!
That's why I present God's Plan for evangelizing to those who don't understand.
However, it seems to be a waste of time here.
As Calvin says, maybe in time God will change you.

You are 100% correct ev'77 in posting Romans 15:19.

And in case you forgot, I posted that Paul was an apostle and he had the SIGN gifts of Mark 16, Matt. 28 and was confirmed in Hebrews 2.

Paul was able to carry out missionary travels all over the middle east BECAUSE HE had the SIGN gifts which enabled him to "fully preach the gospel of Christ".

The "Sign" gifts were given to the "eleven" (Marl 16) who were in fact the apostles.

 

[Major]

Acts 4:29. And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness,
Acts 4:30. while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus."
Acts 4:31. And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
This was after some further persecution by the pharisees, and after the citing of Psa 2:1.
Nowhere in this account is there any example of the Apostles doing anything other than preaching the gospel against a backdrop of persecution and opposition.
This alone suggests that swm is not to be expected on Sunday down at the local chapel while politely chatting over a mug of coffee and a plate of cookies.
Rusty sir! you stole my thunder.. as I read one of Major's replies I thought of Aladdin's genie too.
That is the point.....The Holy spirit should be listened to, telling us what is what. We should not expect or hope for anything other that the will of God to be made known amongst us.......not our will be done, but His will be done.
In the text cited above, the apostles only specific request was for boldness to proclaim the Gospel against a backdrop of hostile unbelief.
And the only specific request for things miraculous was for healing.
And what better healing would there be other that spiritual healing...restoring broken relationships between the Lord and those He loves so dearly?
In other words I believe their main focus was on preaching Christ and that preaching was not so as to hear their own voices, but to see the Holy Spirit bring people to repentance and salvation......to heal the rift.

AMEN my brother!

 

[Major]

I find it odd, Ev77, that you are so easily offended and piously condemn those of the faith that question your ideas. I also think that you need to quote whole thoughts in Scriptural citations, not ripping chunks out:



Please quote Paul's SWM miracle meetings with tongues and slain in the Spirit, etc. with unbelievers from the Word.
Show where he preached in and to nations that KNEW already of Christ name, as SMW preachers do today....

You are correct Rusty.

One of the signs of anyone who is unable to accept the words written in the Scriptures is when they only use the part that effects their "opinion".

They must work at making the Scripture fit their idea's instead of allowing the Scriptures to mold their theology.

It is the reverse of "cause & effect" and is one of the real problems in Christianity today.

I am enjoying your comments and I hope that you will stay with us.

Bless you........Major.

 

[evangelist-77]

Show where he preached in and to nations that KNEW already of Christ name,
as SMW preachers do today....

SWM (please get da order straight, thanks) preachers all over the world
preach to millions who do not really know what Christ's name is all about.

Why not join Major and get out of your little village and see the world.
The Lord basically abandoned UNBELIEVING America some years ago.

 

[evangelist-77]

The "Sign" gifts were given to the "eleven" (Marl 16) who were in fact the apostles.

IMO, the 11 were disciples ... many apostles came later.

Jesus also gave spiritual power gifts to the 70 (Luke 10),
and said He would give this power to the 11 + others (Luke 24:33-49),
and said He would give this power to the apostles (Acts 1:4-8),
and He actually gave this power to the 120 (Acts 2).

Accompanying this baptism with the Holy Spirit come some of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Cor 12).

 

[evangelist-77]

sorry

 

[evangelist-77]

The Lord basically abandoned UNBELIEVING America some years ago.

I meant re: evangelizing to the ignorant heathens with S-W-M.

 

[evangelist-77]

This is what is so damning with presumption people:
Amazing...

What's amazing is your presumption that ...
S-W-M are not used much today in evangelism all over the world.
Youse bin in da wrong places wit da wrong people.
Your Problem was with da denomination you were with overseas
... lot's of UNBELIEF ... ever heard of it?
Amazing!

 

[Major]

IMO, the 11 were disciples ... many apostles came later.

Jesus also gave spiritual power gifts to the 70 (Luke 10),
and said He would give this power to the 11 + others (Luke 24:33-49),
and said He would give this power to the apostles (Acts 1:4-8),
and He actually gave this power to the 120 (Acts 2).

Accompanying this baptism with the Holy Spirit come some of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Cor 12).

What verse or verses can you post that tell us "Many apostles came later".

Ev'77.........ELEVEN is ELEVEN. You can not, no one can make more than there is there to grasp.

Luke 10:7-20 tells us that there were 70 disciples BUT there is no mentuion of 70 in Mark 16. Only the ELEVEN.

Luke 24:33-49 tells us that the group present consisted of only 10 of the apostles thosmas being absant, 11 is a collective term that was unsed identify the group of disciples.

Acts 1:4-8....Correct. As I have said, the SIGB|N gifts were given to the apostles.

Acts 1:20.....NOPE! These were tokens of the advent of the day of the Lord. THis was a quote of Joel 2:12-14. Acts 2 IS not Joel 2 but is a quote there of.

Keep reading and studying. You will get it!!

Leave denomionational theology and stick to Biblical truth.

 

[Major]

I meant re: evangelizing to the ignorant heathens with S-W-M.

Why would you consider those who do not agree with your denominational theology as ignorant heathens????????

No one has accused you of being a heathen because you reject the Word of God on this subject, why would you say such a thing?????