I hope you are right. Can we? Absolutely, but it would take a revival such as might never been seen. I have lost most all hope for this nation. I love what it has stood for, but, I believe, we have placed our best days behind us. Looking at politicians is a faulty gauge but for the fact that there are so many who are simply seekers of power.
The Purpose Of Governments
- Thread starter JohnC
- Start date
I will agree its a gloomy political forecast indeed. Yet one thing that gives me hope is that our constitution is different than all others as it is predicated by and large on virtuous Natural Law, yet its not quite pure thanks to the likes of those who were of Hamilton’s persuasion.
Because it is largely written with ethics in mind, giving decentralized power to union states and individuals, the people can reverse despotic action "legally" and "peacefully." However so far the forces of despotism move consistently steady.
Americas has a great enemy called "apathy," and apathies cure is "loss." Let us pray that churches will pull together and stand against despotic action in one accord, and let us pray that our losses will not be dire before apathy is cured.
I do not see Jesus getting involved in politics as a part of his ministry. His ministry rose above politics and like he said, his kingdom is not of this world. However, as AMERICANS, I feel we have a responsibility to continue to stand against tyranny and despotism. It is in the ruling powers' interest for us to feel hopeless and despairing, and to believe we are helpless. WE ARE NOT! I see many encouraging instances reported in media of American citizens' successful stand against oppressive policies.
When we struggle against oppressive earthly kingdoms, it is true we need the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome our despairing feelings, and we need His guidance of wisdom to make the right choices.
I am coming to believe that we should not involve ourselves in politics in the name of Jesus, but instead as simple citizens of the U.S. Of course, I will not deny I am Christian, and the fact that the principle of freedom in Christianity motivates me to seek freedom from oppression, for myself and others. But making a political cause in the NAME OF JESUS is wrong, in my opinion.
What say you?
Could it be possible that the "towers, ziggurats" were built to keep the people IN more than keeping others out????
Remember that God had told man to "fill the earth".
Ryrie commentary suggests that these towers were not used for worship but instaed as a rally point and a symbol of their fame = Pride. (Gen 4:17).
vs. 5-9........"Let us make brick......let us build a city......let us make a name"
All of that opens the door for Gods judgment.
What are your thoughts?
Does Revelation 17:17 speak to your thoughts???
Rev. 17:17.......
"for God has put it into their hearts (man) to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled."
I agree
In my church we gather and pray for our country and feel that politics is beneath the ministry in eyes of God. For to become political is to cast our pearls before swine. In the world today the pig already runs up and down the isle squealing for more things to trod.
We must ask ourselves being members of the body, was Christ political?
Political
Was Christ a political revolutionary? No
Did Christ endorse any political parties? No
Did Christ join one of the four prevailing political parties of His day? No
Did Christ encourage politics at all? No
Was Christ a political instigator of violence? No
Was Christ a political instigator of rowdy protest? No
Did Christ encourage His followers to support any political agendas? No
Ethics
Was Christ an ethical radical who angered political authority for what He stood for? Yes
Did Christ ethically condone political despotism? No
Did Christ ethically rebuke despotic political authority? Yes
Was Christ ethically and verbally confrontational to despotic political authority? Yes
Did Christ ethically engage in strategic civil disobedience regarding unjust law? Yes
Did Christ ethically show love to political authority when they were willing to listen? Yes
Was Christ willing to die for what He was called to do? Yes
I agree strongly
For our advantage is in the spirit where we refrain from temporary natural fights of this world and wage eternal spiritual warfare which is unseen. For His power is not limited to this world, and He that is in us is far greater than all despotism seated around us.
I think the right choices are upon us all in this critical hour, for our liberty dissipates.
Would you agree that God is not mocked? For the seeds of a kind sown, will then produce fruit of the same kind? For the church in America is now challenged to refrain from the unjust edicts that constantly crush the virtuous foundations of our Lords delegation of Natural Law? Maybe in this blessed hour our wisdom will culminate in advocacy to reach the lost who are bound with chains from two dimensions. For only the church can withdraw one of the arbitrary chains that bind, which will cause the second to lay against the Rock where the two edged sword will sever the bondage. For one bondage causes another. Shall we cling to scriptural ethics that will harvest love in this natural life, which then culminates to agape love that will crush the compulsory foundations of wicked decent until His total eternal glory is revealed.
Can it be that our contractual liberty that exonerates the non-aggressor, which also is deployed in God's amazing delegation prior to civil intervention, is indeed also the same liberty that shields the church from evil despotism? When we defend the non-aggressor from despotic unjust-law by ethically standing up in love as Christ stood, then our like-stance then defends our own posterity.
I think politics materialize from those who contrive to obtain what is not theirs. For all people are born with the same right to honestly appropriate property where voluntary-consent should saturate every exchange. Yet men fall to chronic inclination to conspire, to collude, and twist society with unjust laws that resolve to legal plunder. There is only One who truly owns all things eternal, and His delegation enables man to become a natural temporary recipient of property for a few moments in this life.
In the spirit of Locke, Natural Law must be defended by the church in order to curtail the evil plights of men. For if illegitimate authority can be peacefully curtailed in the confines of peaceful ethics instead using the baffling and reckless throes of political defiance, then despotism loses its grip to harm the innocent before violence can do its bidding. Thus Paul admonishes the church to abstain from judging the ambiguous sinner, but also to not engage in blanketed defiance to authority.
Should the church involve itself in politics? In my opinion no, save the voting process.
Yet should we come together as the body of Christ in a unified and knowledgeable stance to vote against despotism? Yes for that should be our ethical stance in one accord.
However, despotism (sins of aggression) is an unfamiliar understanding in the body, and Natural Law is almost a lost understanding altogether. For God gave us natural law to combat despotism, yet if the body does not know what natural law is, then how can it unify to embrace its own protection? Yet also shall natural law support the profound love of Christ and would choke out the authoritative notions of evil men offering to make all things moral, fair and safe with unjust legislation at the expense of all liberty.
The church should be “ethical” in the name of Jesus and not “political.”
What you have written is beyond big. I spent a good bit of time believing contrary to this, but I have come to believe exactly what you have expressed. As a Christian , I have grace, not rights. As an American I have the right to support that which more accurately reflects how God ordered the universe.
Yes, that verse does put in mind to me of many things I see happening today. However, I'm not sure what you are getting at? I think the ones "God has put it into their hearts" being spoken of here are unbelievers...not His sheep. WE (sheep) are not to hand over the "royal power to the beast".
Thank you, Great Fiction. I will agree with you in prayer.
The Mosaic Covenant was offered to Israel, and the Covenant of salvation is offered to the whole world. Thus "the salvation covenant in the New Testament was expanded or offered to more people"(the whole world instead of just Israel).
However to your credit and keen focus, you arrested and correctly applied the word "expanded" in context to that specific sentence, thus your question is highly warranted to justify an explanation. For our covenant with Christ has not expanded since the American founding as Christ offered it to the whole world when He died; thus your question forces justifiable and grammatical austerity.
May I be allowed to switch the word "expanded" with the word "opportunistic" for that sentence?
Thank you for your admonishment
Yes, of course that is true. My point is exactly that. God uses the lost as well as the saved to accomplish His will.
WE, the saved, the church will not be in view when Rev. 17 takes place. The saved will have been Raptured and will not be here to turn over anything to the beast.
What I am talking about it to recognize that our programs could go one of two ways within the constraints of our existing government.... We do have a say..... People listen to US... Let's be careful what we say....
We can...
Continue to champion social programs that stand against God's sovereignty ....
Or...
We can champion that our existing social programs are re-aimed at being more in line with God's stated goals....
For example....
Welfare.....
Instead of trying to ERADICATE poverty, which is impossible - Jesus himself said "The poor will always be with you"....
How about simply structuring programs to be compassionate to poor people and try to help people people out of poverty... but ditch the foolish notion that we can ERADICATE it.
How about Disaster Relief....
Instead of the foolish notion that we can protect 100% of people against "Acts of God" and that we can make it as if the disaster had never happened...
instead...
Be compassionate and help the people who are in trouble because they have been hit.
We can...
Continue to champion social programs that stand against God's sovereignty ....
Or...
We can champion that our existing social programs are re-aimed at being more in line with God's stated goals....
For example....
Welfare.....
Instead of trying to ERADICATE poverty, which is impossible - Jesus himself said "The poor will always be with you"....
How about simply structuring programs to be compassionate to poor people and try to help people people out of poverty... but ditch the foolish notion that we can ERADICATE it.
How about Disaster Relief....
Instead of the foolish notion that we can protect 100% of people against "Acts of God" and that we can make it as if the disaster had never happened...
instead...
Be compassionate and help the people who are in trouble because they have been hit.
Its extremely obvious that your heart is virtuously motivated to help the poor and the helpless. Also our world would be a much better place if just half of the world cared the same way that you do.
However would you allow me to construct a conundrum regarding your strategy?
Does the scripture charge any person or group to commit acts of violence to person or property in order to support the poor and the helpless?
Does the Church need to go through the government to address those problems in the US?
I can't say I know what it's like in the US, but this kind of work is increasingly being contracted out to the private sector in most western countries now. I work pretty closely with the Salvation Army here in Aus, and those things are exactly the sort of programs the Salvos have. They try to be the first ones into disaster areas to help out, and their "welfare" programs tend toward building relationships with individuals in extreme poverty, to try to address the problems that are causing poverty for that person, and to build communities that can self-support their members, instead of simply handing out cash.
Personally, I'd rather see Christians addressing those problems directly, instead of focusing on trying to go through the gov to do the Church's work.
I don't really get where you are headed....
Honestly, I don't see violence as being the answer to the issue of our government or society running off the rails... You can't fight Moral Decay with the sword.... You have to change hearts..
Unfortunately, we have gone the opposite way... Our government is pushing out the Charitable organizations more and more.... It's quite concerning... Unfortunately, people don't see it happening out in the open - because it's being done under cover through increasing administrative "Red tape"... and with the general state of apathy - it's going to be way too late once people realize it's gone....
I am with you wholeheartedly on your second point.
As much as I would love to take credit that my heart is virtuously motivated to help the poor and helpless...
In this case - I am particularly worried that we are on a collision course with God's Judgement...
That God has started "Shaking the tree"... and we are shouting and yelling and throwing stuff instead of paying attention....
See... There is hope... I think the Book of Jonah tells us that - where a Godless, idolatrous nation Repented on Speculation - and God gave them 120 more years.... It's perhaps one of the greatest miracles in the entire bible - a nation of perhaps 6 or 10 million people REPENTED and their disaster was averted! ... and yet nobody thinks of it that way....
Well sure. But that seems like a different direction from what's proposed in the OP... which was: "Why not try to push our Government back in the direction of PREVENTING the Wrath of God from Occurring"
We agree that any hope is through repentance, but surely you can't legislate repentance. So what will cause people to want to repent, of their own volition? I guess what I'm not understanding is, how will pushing reform in social programs help bring about repentance? Help me understand where you're coming from here.