The Role Of The Holy Spirit As A Witness Excludes Himself From Worship

[Major]

I think I saw in Matthew or Mark, that I was just rereading, that the Disciples also passed on these "paranormal" gifts to their followers. Particularly to cast out devils. Many "gifts" have not been described in scripture. Adam could converse with animals, for instance. The Merovingian (sp?) of France were said to have this gift - some of them. When speaking in tongues is mentioned in scripture (yes yes BY the disciples)
it is used that the meaning can be understood. And tho I have no actual proof, I believe that it continues to this day, altho I feel the meaning has to be understood by someone speaking or hearing it. I think the "gifts" given to people are for those God calls that need it. My PROBLEM here is that the Holy Spirit is being sub serviated to other parts of God and it's dead wrong

Silk, what verse do you use to believe that Adam could converse with animals. Adam had dominion and authority over animals as seen in Gen. 2:19 and he named them. Is that what you were thinking of???

IT is not what we think Silk, it is what the Scriptures tell us that is truth. We are servants to our minds and we always can be fooled and deceived.

WE hear a noise late at night and because we saw a movie about ghosts we think we have one in our home. Our MINDS play tricks on us.
Silk.......

Silk.........The Bible rejects the idea that the spirits of deceased human beings can remain on earth and “haunt” the living.

Heb. 9:27
“Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.”

That is what happens to a person’s soul-spirit after death—judgment. Now the Scripture is either TRUE or FALSE.
The result of this judgment is heaven for the believer and hell for the unbeliever. There is no in-between. There is no possibility of remaining on earth in spirit form as a “ghost.” If there are such things as ghosts, according to the Bible, they absolutely cannot be the disembodied spirits of deceased human beings.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/ghosts-hauntings.html#ixzz2OqHy3ect​

We see a light in the sky and hear no noise and because we read a book on UFO's we are predisposed to believe that light we saw is a UFO. Our MINDS play tricks on us all the time. We can not allow the wifhful thinking and writing of pagans who reject God and produce information that there is life all over the universe to over ride the clear Bible as the Word of God. All that does is question the existance of God and He as our Creator. The Bible does NOT teach that there is life somewhere else.

Think for a second on the dreams you have while sleeping. The body sleeps but the mind is still going at warp speed and our MINDS play tricks on us. The events of the day, the movies we watch and the material we read is in our mind and when we sleep that information kicks in and away we go!

All of these things are the reason why we need the Scriptures as an anchor in our life so that we can have something solid to hang onto and stop us from floating out into the Twilight Zone.

 

[Major]

I think I saw in Matthew or Mark, that I was just rereading, that the Disciples also passed on these "paranormal" gifts to their followers. Particularly to cast out devils. Many "gifts" have not been described in scripture. Adam could converse with animals, for instance. The Merovingian (sp?) of France were said to have this gift - some of them. When speaking in tongues is mentioned in scripture (yes yes BY the disciples)
it is used that the meaning can be understood. And tho I have no actual proof, I believe that it continues to this day, altho I feel the meaning has to be understood by someone speaking or hearing it. I think the "gifts" given to people are for those God calls that need it. My PROBLEM here is that the Holy Spirit is being sub serviated to other parts of God and it's dead wrong

OOOps. There was a glitch in the program and it was posted twice.

 

[Major]

I am not trying to boast or brag (well actually what I have to say is slight) but I have "layed" my hands on a few people. The people felt better for a short time (hrs. a day) but the help they felt they recieved was purely temporary. I wanted to try this (when younger) because I believed I might be able to do it. Probably, the only reason, it didn't work out better was I should have relied more on God and less on me.

Or..........it might be that healing comes from God through the prayers of His saints and not at the touch of anyones hand.

James 5:14
"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord".

 

[Major]

It is my experience, too, Dan, to have most people claiming gifts to not have them. That includes psychics, card readers, to those who say they can heal and speak in tongues. But I have witnessed some miracles, altho they are few and far between. I don't mean to mix the paranormal/occult with the holy roller circus - but I think they have something in common, that brings them to these claims. Pride, desire of attention, greed. The first time anyone feels they have to "lie" to prove they are a "better Christian" is the first brick in the road to perdition.

NOW my dear sister, you are getting to the truth of the matter!!!!

Proverbs 6:16-19
"These six things doth the Lord hate, yea, seven are an abomination unto him. A proud look, a lying tongue and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations and feet that be swift in running to mischief. A false witness that speaks lies and he that sowrth discord among the brethren".

Man simply can not help himself. He is inherently religiouse and as such he will try to find a way to be closer to God than the next man and his experiences will always be more spiritual than his brother. WE CAN NOT HELP OURSELVES.

My dear, that is why we hear so many outrageous testimonies when Christians gather. We all have to have a better story than the next person because we must convince everyone that WE are closer to God than they are. PRIDE!

That is why people believe that they are healed and 3 days later they die. The excitement has worn off and reality sets back
in.

That is why we see people who say....."God has spoken to me in an audible voice and said to me......................."
PRIDE. Wanting others to believe that we are so close to God that He would speak to ME.

That is why we see people speaking in a strange dialect that no one interprets. You see, we have to show all the others around us that WE are special and close to God and we are religiouse because we talk to God in a language that only He and us understand. PRIDE!

Listen, no one has to agree with this and I expect that many will reject it. That is OK and I will still love you with all my heart if you do. What I am saying to you is what I have experienced now for over 40 years of church work and observation.

 

[TalkJesus]

OK... one more time, you are trying to teach a tenet that is NOT true. The Holy Spirit was left behind as "comforter" after Christ was crucified, resurrected and ascended to the Father. So therefore, the Holy Spirit is an interface from us to God.

#1) The Holy Spirit is "a Messenger" from God to us, not the other way around.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Unless I missed Christ Second Coming. If you are saying that demonic spirits are entering churches of believers, perhaps you should know that the demonic are supposedly tortured by holy artifacts and are allergic to Christ's name.

#2) The spirits of the anticrist have been attempting to operate even in the early churches and has led some astray.

1 John 2: 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Whcih is why John gave this instruction for testing the spirits for believers to be doing back then and up to now.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Verse 2 above is the same thing as saying 2 Corinthians 13:5 because "is come" means presently. Most believers think this means teaching that Christ had never come in the flesh which was not what John was talking about when he is writing about how to test the spirits. John says in verse 2 that the Jesus Christ is in us. John goes on to draw that line of distinction in testing the spirits that is not of Him at all.

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
That is what John was meaning that if anyone says the Holy Spirit is here then that is not the Holy Spirit but the spirit of the antichrist because the real Holy Spirit dwells within you and would not have any need to make His presence known outside of you to be felt in the worship place.
God has called us, sinners and Jews, out of the world to a personal reconciled relationship with God through the Son which is why He is the Bridegroom because we are married to God through Him. So any notion of the Old Covenant about how His Presence was felt at the Temple is gone now as He dwells within us which is the glory of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus. That also includes any other spirits that are felt outside of us are still not of Him. That way we do not talk as the world does in regards to the occults and we do not talk as the Jews used to about His Presence being at the Temple because God is with us always as dwelling within us. That is our witness and any other is a false witness and the spirit of the antichrist as the world continues to talk as they do about spirits in places that people can feel them at like mediums.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The Spirit of truth dwells in us: nowhere else so we can test the spirits now as not of Him.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Silk]

Major, you have asked alot of questions and perhaps reproof of what I have said here and on other threads. Eve spoke to a serpent and the serpent spoke back. Last I looked, serpents are considered part of the not human categpory. To have dominion over the animals, can be interpeted as having the ability to communicate with them. I have read and seen stories on TV where people profess to being able to understand animals. I knew a person, that I have reason to believe, could at times, understand what animals were "saying". If I posted all my own experiences, this post would go on forever. As to seeing the UFO, I was with two other witnesses, it was in broad daylight, and if you know of any flying metal spheres that are human - I'd be the first to agree that's what I saw was human made - even tho it moved very very very very fast. As to ghosts, you may be unwilling to look at the enormous, humongous literature on the subject AND the evidence but I have looked and seen differently. AS to healing - that was exactly what I was getting at in Post # 41. It may well be that all of us can heal, but we don't have the spiritual level to do so - or it is a gift, given by God to those who can use it to help others. I don't hear a sound in the night and think immediately of ghosts, having seen a ghost movie. If I hear a sound, I investigate to see what caused it and think of common explanations and ignore if I can't. If I'm being haunted, it's conceivable I would be the last one to know it. But again, I have known a few people who have seen ghosts. Of human spirits.

 

[Silk]

Talks I am not going to repost your Post #46 except to say you , IMO, do not understand the Holy Spirit, no matter what scripture you post that doesn't even back what you are saying. Try to learn instead of assuming you know all that you need to.You are taking scripture out of context. While I, among many, can agree that people claim to have gifts and knowledge they don't actually have, they come out of human need to show pride, greed and that, as Major says, that "they are closer to God than anyone else". It's a bad road - get back on the right one.

 

[TalkJesus]

Silk:

Ask Jesus at that throne of grace when testing the spirit. Don't assume any spirit outside of you as being the Holy Spirit.

What point is it for Him to have you feel Him outside of you when He is in you?

Seducing spirits are those that lead you away from the Son in relating to God by because the Son is the Bridegroom.

 

[Silk]

Talks - I understand what you are trying to warn of. Please don't assume you know that I am not feeling the Holy Spirit. We agree on one thing. The Holy Spirit IS within us all - we make the choice to listen or no. I, personally, have no seducing or evil spirits leading me away from God because I know exactly where God is.

 

[dan in the lion's den]

TJ, you are so close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit I really think the moderators should look over your posts.

 

[TalkJesus]

TJ, you are so close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit I really think the moderators should look over your posts.

If they truly see it as an offense, then they should throw out the book of 1 John because we are warned not to believe every spirit but test them and John drew that line of discernment that greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world as that spirit that is in the world as outside of us and felt outside of us is the spirit of the antichrist: 1 John 4:3-4 There is no ifs, buts, nor contentions about it. Blur that line of discernment and you can't test the spirits at all.

 

[TalkJesus]

I will go so far as to repeat something I had shared earlier as a contention towards all the churches for ignoring the reproof that this thread is here for.

I am speaking against the idea of addressing the Holy Spirit in worship which the Holy Spirit in us according to the scripture, would not lead us to do since He will not speak of Himself in seeking His own glory so how can we as led by Him to speak of Him in that way in worship? John 16:13

Scripture tells us how to honour God the Father in worship and that is by honouring the Son: that is the standard of judgment hanging over evert believer: John 5:22-23 becase the moment they stop honouring the Son, they are no longer honouring the Father because God as God is glorified in the Son John 13:31-32 as that is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship of God the Father Philippians 2:5-11

This is important because the Nicene creed introduced the error of broadening the way in worship by including the worship of the Spirit with the Father & the Son and yet we can only come to God the Father in worship by way of the Son John 14:6-7

Jesus warned churches that the broadening of the way would happen: Matthew 7:13-27 with dire consequences of many houses falling as they do now as that small leaven has leavened into a whole lump of apostasy when the "holy laughter" movement was no longer a streamlined Pentecostal/Charismatic event but it was occurring in Catholic as well as Protestant churches which is the fruit of the false prophet when it gathers grapes of thorns & figs of thistles.

The solution is to narrow the way back to God the Father in worship by coming to the Son in worshipping Him and thus by Him, God the Father. Luke 13:24

A brother in India had shared with me that he had a Sunday School adult class on the Holy Spirit & the day of Pentecost as it was on that day Pentecost was on the calendar for them to celebrate that Sunday, but when they held their worship service to "honour" the Holy Spirit, he experienced what felt like liquid nitrogen seeping through his skull and he began confessing against his will an apology to the Holy Spirit for not believing that He does these dramatic manifestations any more.

Remember Jesus' invitation in coming to Him personally as He is meek & lowly in heart to find rest for our souls? Yet in spite of this singular honour in worship, the Spirit of Christ makes like a bully?

That was not the Holy Spirit & neither was it in the churches that had experienced the holy laughter movement. This is what I believed Jesus meant about watching & not suffering a thief to break through. Matthew 24:43 John 10:1 John 10:7

They call on the Holy Spirit in worship to invoke the phenomenon again and again and so this is why the way to narrow in coming to God the Father in worship as Jesus really meant what He had said that no man can come to the Father in anything as in prayer, fellowship, or in worship other than by Him.

This is a work of iniquity as to why only a few find the way in these latter days because the way is narrow as Jesus is the Bridegroom in how we as the chaste bride are to be relating to God in living that reconciled relationship through the Bridegroom.

So it isn't just the Pentecostal & the Charismatics that will take offense, but the rest of the denomenations as well because the Holy Spirit will not lead believers to worship Him with the Father & the Son but to honour the Father ONLY by honouring the Son. That is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship: Philippians 2:5-11 because God can only be glorified in the Son: John 13:31-32

It is a reproof most believers & churches cannot grasp, but then they cannot answer why God would permit the devil to respond when addressing the Holy Spirit in worship to invoke these movement of the "Spirit" to occur that they believe is not of Him at all......... and the reason why God permitted that strong delusion to occur is because Jesus is the only way to the Father after all in worship, fellowship, and prayer. John 14:6

 

[dan in the lion's den]

TJ, you cannot know who is being worshipped when someone is speaking in tongues. Nor can you say who is being praised unless you have ESP. The fact that I have personally heard people praising CHRIST before and after speaking in tongues is sufficient to deduce that the situation was CHRIST centered. Just because you know of some church in India, doesn't validate your deliberate generalization. Even if you visited 10 churches praising the Holy Spirit over Christ it doesn't validate your position. Even a hundred churches in error doesn't give you the right to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not even a thousand. Not even if every christian in every church in every nation gives you the right to call of it demonic as long as ONE christian says in the language of angels that Jesus Christ is Lord of lords and King of Kings.
Just like it doesn't matter how many "strutting peacocks" get on a stage and perform false healings. As long as at least one human being has recieved one healing through a gift of the Holy Spirit, then you stand corrected.
Intelligence breeds arrogance. We must maintain our humility. Disecting the Trinity is erroneous at best. Assuming that you have some special gift to read others minds as they speak in tongues is either self-deluding arrogance or deliberate misinformation.
I already know 99% of those claiming special gifts is false but I would NEVER throw the baby out with the bathwater, much less imply demonic forces at work on every instance as long as 1% of the gifts manifested is authentic. You may make the doubters of the gifts of the Holy Spirit rest a little easier with your theology and that may make them want to throw out all God has to offer as well.
But it doesn't make you right.

 

[TalkJesus]

TJ, you cannot know who is being worshipped when someone is speaking in tongues. ..........

If others do not know, then respectfully, neither do you. You may think you do, but God calls you to be a witness and a light unto the world: not mimick after other works of darkness that was there before the gospel & His actual gift of tongues had come.

Paul instructed such tongues to be interpreted in order for it to be fruitful even for himself as being a tongue speaker.

He instructed in 1 Corinthians 14:28 that the person speaking in tongues that comes with no interpretion is to be silent and yet towards the end of the chapter, he said not to forbid speaking in tongues.

The only way he could say that to the guy in verse 28 is because of the way he was speaking which testify that it was not God's gift of tongues because he speaketh unto himself ...meaning he understood what he was saying as he speaketh unto God as meaning God understood what he was saying too. That means this guy was a foreignor speaking out of turn in church and is to be told to be silent. Otherwise, he just gave instruction to forbid speaking in tongues in verse 28 which he did not because it was not God's gift of tongues, signifying that it came with no interpretation.

That is what Paul meant in verse 2 when he says how one speaketh not unto men but unto God as he speaketh in the spirit mysteries meaning this is God's gift of tongues as God understand what he is saying, but the tongue speaker does not.

Paul telling that guy in verse 28 to be silent also testifies that the real God's gift of tongues is to come with interpretation.

Paul said in verse 2 in relation to verse 1 was Paul exalting the singulat gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts and began explaining why by comparing the singular gift of prophesy against the singular gift of tongues as he goes on to compare the two gifts throughout that chapter that God's gift of tongues was not as good as God;s gift of prophesy because God's gift of tongues was not a stand alone gift as it will come with interpretation unless otherwise understood by a foreignor.

Paul clarified the whole topic of what tongues were for as being of other men's lips to speak unto the people in verses 20-21. He gave no exception as he was giving the full understanding in those two verses of what God's gift of tongues were for.

When we consider this to be true....

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Then how can it not be said when someone comes in on a person privately praying in tongues, thinking that person as mad?

And the worst part of it is.... if a believer was a former voodooist that had spoken in tongues in the occult, and was caught doing this by himself speaking in tongues that comes with no interpretation.... how would anyone know if he had backslidden or never had repented in the first place or being an infiltrator of the church in bringing in seducing spirits?

So if we as believers are to abstain from all appearances of evil & prove all things, then God's gift of tongues are of other men's lips to speak unto the people that has to come with interpretation or... it is not God's gift of tongues because it is not a stand alone gift because it would come with interpretation unless otherwise understood by a foreignor.

But it doesn't make you right.

Just giving everybody pause to take it to the Lord Jesus Christ at that throne of grace in normal prayer for discernment on this matter, because no one here can prove anyone that they are right as only God can cause the increase to hear the truth.