The Tree of Life

[Musicmaster]

Adam and Eve were mortal only because they sinned. See Romans 5:12: "Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned (because sin is inherited), and so everyone must die." The implication here is that by not sinning, one can achieve immortality.

This notion that everyone seems to have that Adam and Eve were mortal while living in the Garden of Eden, is not supported by Scripture. Makes me wonder where you all got that idea?

Hello, DK.

Hmm. Indeed? I hope you don't mind if I posit some things into all this, both questions and answers...the balance of which I have not yet measured.

Adam was immortal before he fell? Is that your premise, or conclusion? I realize you were asking, but this is indeed an interesting discussion.

That seems to pose some problems...at least, for me in what I think that I know.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Is there a declaration anywhere in scripture that states the dust of the earth was everlasting?

I would think we can safely assume the breath of life the Lord breathed into that vessel of dust was itself what can be said to be everlasting, but the dust? How do we ever prove such a thing from silence?

Granted...one could argue that all the universe was everlasting (immortal in a sense) before the fall. Was it? How do we prove such a thing? How do we know that what is called the Second Law of Thermodynamics wasn't at play already in the universe? Do we assume the Lord would have continued to feed energy into the universe to keep it from what is now known to be a "heat death" (lack of energy, and thus cessation of all molecular motion)?

Can we ever say for sure that the Lord did not actually intend for the fall to happen, and thus His forming Adam from mere dust rather than outfitting him with a glorified body at the outset, such as what we will have after this life (transformed)? It would seem the Lord knew and intended for Adam to fall, and therefore not having made the mistake of giving to him a glorified body that truly would have been everlasting.

I have never given this topic such thought before tonight after reading through some of the posts in this thread.

These are thoughts from what is actually written that I think are worthy of our consideration, and that can feed into an even deeper measure of glorification of the Lord who is worthy of our admiration and worship. Would you not agree?

So, Adam, then, came into existence inside a finite body, but as an everlasting soul. The only thing that changed was the entrance of sin that the Lord knew from before the foundations of the world was going to happen, and that was fully within the scope of His plan that spans the entirety of all time in this universe...the very universe the Lord declared before the foundations of the world would be burned up and recreated in a way that He knew would be everlasting. The difference, however, is that in the new Heaven and new earth, we will no longer be a people formed from dust, but living within glorified bodies not constrained by mere dust.

Wow. Thanks for bringing this all up. It's worthy of our thoughts AND our prayers and praise of the Lord, seeking out the Lord's own thoughts and ways about all this.

MM

 

[Major]

Hello Major
Agreed that Adam and Eve knew what they could and what they should not do. But Eve was decieved, thinking she could improve her situation, becoming wise. Do you think Adam was also deceived? When Eve offered the fruit to Adam was she doing it with clear conscience, implying that at that point she did not yet realize... And so it was only after they both partook that they realized they were naked? So was the disobedience confined to an item, in which case Eve should have realized it right away, or was it in the doing?
If it was in the doing why would the realization only come after eating with Adam?

1 Tim. 2:14 says,
“And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression.”

By that it seems to me that we can understand that Adam had knowledge about the huge difference between God and creation that kept him safe from deception.

 

[Major]

Hello, DK.

Hmm. Indeed? I hope you don't mind if I posit some things into all this, both questions and answers...the balance of which I have not yet measured.

Adam was immortal before he fell? Is that your premise, or conclusion? I realize you were asking, but this is indeed an interesting discussion.

That seems to pose some problems...at least, for me in what I think that I know.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Is there a declaration anywhere in scripture that states the dust of the earth was everlasting?

I would think we can safely assume the breath of life the Lord breathed into that vessel of dust was itself what can be said to be everlasting, but the dust? How do we ever prove such a thing from silence?

Granted...one could argue that all the universe was everlasting (immortal in a sense) before the fall. Was it? How do we prove such a thing? How do we know that what is called the Second Law of Thermodynamics wasn't at play already in the universe? Do we assume the Lord would have continued to feed energy into the universe to keep it from what is now known to be a "heat death" (lack of energy, and thus cessation of all molecular motion)?

Can we ever say for sure that the Lord did not actually intend for the fall to happen, and thus His forming Adam from mere dust rather than outfitting him with a glorified body at the outset, such as what we will have after this life (transformed)? It would seem the Lord knew and intended for Adam to fall, and therefore not having made the mistake of giving to him a glorified body that truly would have been everlasting.

I have never given this topic such thought before tonight after reading through some of the posts in this thread.

These are thoughts from what is actually written that I think are worthy of our consideration, and that can feed into an even deeper measure of glorification of the Lord who is worthy of our admiration and worship. Would you not agree?

So, Adam, then, came into existence inside a finite body, but as an everlasting soul. The only thing that changed was the entrance of sin that the Lord knew from before the foundations of the world was going to happen, and that was fully within the scope of His plan that spans the entirety of all time in this universe...the very universe the Lord declared before the foundations of the world would be burned up and recreated in a way that He knew would be everlasting. The difference, however, is that in the new Heaven and new earth, we will no longer be a people formed from dust, but living within glorified bodies not constrained by mere dust.

Wow. Thanks for bringing this all up. It's worthy of our thoughts AND our prayers and praise of the Lord, seeking out the Lord's own thoughts and ways about all this.

MM

Since God is "omniscient", He had to know what Adam and Eve would do. That does not make Him the author of sin but it only means that He knew what they would do but had to allow it due to the "Freedom of Choice" He gave them/Us.

That would then answer the question in
Ephesians 1:3–4 (ESV)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless …".

BEFORE the foundation of the world, the Father already knew that His Son, Jesus the Christ would have to pay for the sins of Adam and Eve and me.

 

[Lanolin]

Dear Via,
There is an interesting idea imbedded in your story.

That is, you went in the deep end of the pool, despite your father’s warning, but perhaps with the unconscious confidence that he, being your loving father, would save you if you needed saving.

mm I don't think many children even think that way
All children test boundaries its true, but not all have unconcious confidence that their dads will save them. Many dads would have punished that disobedience severely. And fenced the pool.

The other thing was Eve had Adam and Adam who also knew the warning did not save her.

When we look for a saviour, it's not God our Father but his son Jesus. Cos Jesus is the one who is like us, and was human and could be tempted.

 

[Major]

mm I don't think many children even think that way
All children test boundaries its true, but not all have unconcious confidence that their dads will save them. Many dads would have punished that disobedience severely. And fenced the pool.

The other thing was Eve had Adam and Adam who also knew the warning did not save her.

When we look for a saviour, it's not God our Father but his son Jesus. Cos Jesus is the one who is like us, and was human and could be tempted.

Children do not think! They just do what they want to do.