same in MO
Theology and Politics
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I agree. But I would also add that having done the same thing in a large group, there really needs to be a leader or someone who can keep the discussion moving in the way the lesson or topic was intended. Just like a thread on the forum needs a moderator to keep a thread from being high jacked.
Major, if the purpose for the openness is for a guided discussion, then I'd say yes. What you said would be correct in that context.
My experience wasn't in the direction of guidance for discussion, but rather allow the people to bring what's on their individual hearts. When the leader guides what is talked about, that's very much the problem with sermonizing. One man can't touch all the hearts out there with what each one is experiencing in life. different people are walking different avenues of life, and no one message can touch as deeply each life as can be effected by each one bringing into the gathering what's most profoundly impacting their lives that week, or that day.
When it comes to sermonizing, each one can leave with some sort of warm fuzzie along the topical line of the sermon, and yet that completely missed the avenues of where their personal lives happen to be at that time. It's the difference between you going to a counselor, and him telling you what HE thinks is what you need to hear...that and the counselor asking YOU what's ailing your heart and mind, and dealing directly with that, or those, issues.
I've heard people, sitting in their homes, dredging up some sort of parallel(s), way off yonder, between what they heard in that Sunday's sermon in relation to what they're experiencing in their lives at the time. The distance between the two can be vast, forcing them accept what they could get out of it, and moving onward.
Granted, someone is bound to say, "Well, you shouldn't go to church expecting to be filled all the time. You need to be ready to pour out for others in fellowship."
The most reoccurring theme when discussing this with adamant church-goers is, "Hey, if they feel they need fellowship then they can do that before or after the service, not during. There has to be order, you know."
Not only is that a great big, smelly pile of foo-nonsense, it fails to bring into scope the fact that relegating the people to outer corridors of significance, outside the main gathering, and thus excluding their needs to the outer edges of importance, all the while thinking that they are experiencing TRUE fellowship with the backs of their neighbor's heads....no. Yes, there are numbers of people who don't WANT fellowship, one reason being that far too many professing Christians are harboring secret sins that they don't want revealed or confessed openly. It's much safer to fade into the woodwork of the so-called "sanctuary," not having to do much looking into the eyes of one's fellows, and allowing them detect that there's something amiss in the lives of those who don't want fellowship as it happened in the first century Church. Guided programs where nothing is expected of you apart from your silence, and singing on cue if you so desire....that is safety and security in the midst of personal and private sins.
Why else are the congregations with preachers who hit hard on SIN most generally the smallest? The masses of secret sinners flock to the other preachers who don't speak on sin, many of which are mega-church sized morsels of pride-pie and sinful security.
Sorry. I got off onto a divergent branch of this topic. Bottom line is that this is the way it's been for a very long time now, and it ain't gonna change until the world system steps in and forces the preachers to speak on limited topics allowed by government, or get shut down by way of taxing them to death financially, or even putting chains on the doors as they did to us some years ago. Satan used a number of the local church preachers to shut us down. Jealousy is an ugly thing indeed.
The spirit of Diotrophes is alive and well today, just as is Jezebel and Ahab....and sometimes all wrapped up into one or a group of individuals.
Don't mean to sound bitter. I've come to see it all as simply the way things are. However, Satan will be allowed to change it all in God's own time.
MM
I for one am not all that impressed with pasting cotton on bunny tails.....
Sunday school is fine for those who need discipling since most professing believers have no desire to disciple new believers.
Hey, most professing believers are INCAPABLE of discipling new believers, and probably need Sunday school!
What we REALLY need are masses of professing believers who are spiritually and biblically proficient and mature so that Sunday school is not at all needed.
MM
Oh, my. I could write an entire dissertation on this phenomenon, but will abstain....
MM
It is OK brother, I do understand. I guess I did not state correctly what I meant.
In a group setting that is open for discussion than Yes, what ever God lays on the hearts of people is acceptable.
However, I am coming from a Pastors point of view and in my past when we advertized a study lesson on lets say Genesis and a lot of people show up for that lesson and someone speaks up and what to talk about buying a car, the leader has to move the conversation back to Genesis as that is what the majority came to hear. That is all I was saying.
If not, you will disapoint the majority just to allow one talk about something no one else came to hear.
Would that the Pastor at the church I attend operate thus...
Let me vent...
My wife & I generally like the pastor at our church and are blessed by his messages, but he seeks to keep a tight reign on the message at his church.
Adult sunday sunday school is taught by him in the sanctuary, with everyone in pews facing him which is ok, but it doesn't encourage interaction with our brothers and sisters around us. Nor does it facilitate any participation beyond answering questions by the pastor.
Mid week prayer meeting and Bible study is the same. There are a variety of ministries at this chuch, most of them under the pastors leadership, which is good, but it does not promote relationships between members. All this has resulted in a smaller number of members in a clickish structure while there are many less well served.
I get along moderately well in this setting, but my wife longs for more personal relationships with Christian women in the church, and this format does not help.
We need a church that will foster christian friendships (and service) beyond its walls
I attend a men's study group sponsored by another chirch in the area. Their services are a kind of contemporary music concert combined with a message. They recently built a new church building from the ground up... They built a stage with club-style lighting. There are many reasons why this church does not fit us, even if I find the men's study group useful. It still leaves my wife's needs unmet.
So, we now usually watch our church services online, wich we both know is a poor substitute. Many things are just not available. For example, last evening the church held communion service.
So, we ask around and sometimes discuss going to some other church, but being a newbe is always tramatic to my wife.
That is a concern.
I also taught a class on Sunday mornings. It was the senior adults. We met in the fellowship hall aera where there were tables and chairs and we could have coffee and donuts. It was also next door to the Sanctuary so there was not a long walk for them to do. The tables were arranged so that that I sat in the middle and the tables in a large circle. I had a swivel chair and podium so that if someone behind me had a comment I could turn to them. We useally had about 100 people.
If I did not see someone they had the OK to call out.....Hey Preacher!!!
Over time, the people who wanted to have input gravitated toward the front chairs and the others just listened and took notes.
The other classes met in their designated rooms and had their own teachers. That way, age groups could so activities that were appropriate to them.
The elderly wanted to go out to a restaurant and the younger people would rather go to play golf or boating.
We encouraged every class to have a "Social" monthly and that was at someones home. It could be a BBQ or party but something to bring people together.
IN this way.....comunicating with friends who were believers, many, many social concerns could be talked about and solved. Like.....
what about those teenagers or what did you do with the bisquets that no one would eat etc.
Then when one of the deacons in those classes heard a real serious concern that he felt needed to be addressed, he would bring to me and we would work that out with the one concerned. THAT eliminated "Cliques" and rumers and gossip.
Given the title of this thread...
I came of age in the late 1960's, early 1970's in southern California. For those who remember or have learned about those times and particularly that location know that it was a time & place of considerable turmoil, with liberal politics in the assendancy, but I do not remember the level of accrimony that goes on in politics today. Besides becomming a young man during those times and in that environment and was nurtured by a Bible believing and Bible teaching church, and particularly a strong Christian family that took me 'under their wing', and after an initial period put me to work in leading sunday school with prepared materials for 4rth graders.
So, my politics and my view of religion are products of that time and place and circumstances.
Politicaly I leaned 'left' and still do, even if today's political left bears little resemblance to the left of then. While my political ideals have changed little, I have more in common with the moderates of either party than the leader ship either of them.
When I entered the mIlitary (and I believe it was by the leading of the Lord) and began worshipping with believers from all over, I came to know that truley Bible Believing Christianity is not confined to one political persuasion, but many seem to think that because they consider themselves committed and they think a certin way, that that is THE christian way of thinking.
What I might recommend is that before condemming, spend a few months in a church that serves the lord from a different perspective. Learn the scriptures that guide their point of view and understand their heart. Learn to accept them as brothers and serve along side of them, even though you may remain unconvinced of their outlook.
I came of age in the late 1960's, early 1970's in southern California. For those who remember or have learned about those times and particularly that location know that it was a time & place of considerable turmoil, with liberal politics in the assendancy, but I do not remember the level of accrimony that goes on in politics today. Besides becomming a young man during those times and in that environment and was nurtured by a Bible believing and Bible teaching church, and particularly a strong Christian family that took me 'under their wing', and after an initial period put me to work in leading sunday school with prepared materials for 4rth graders.
So, my politics and my view of religion are products of that time and place and circumstances.
Politicaly I leaned 'left' and still do, even if today's political left bears little resemblance to the left of then. While my political ideals have changed little, I have more in common with the moderates of either party than the leader ship either of them.
When I entered the mIlitary (and I believe it was by the leading of the Lord) and began worshipping with believers from all over, I came to know that truley Bible Believing Christianity is not confined to one political persuasion, but many seem to think that because they consider themselves committed and they think a certin way, that that is THE christian way of thinking.
What I might recommend is that before condemming, spend a few months in a church that serves the lord from a different perspective. Learn the scriptures that guide their point of view and understand their heart. Learn to accept them as brothers and serve along side of them, even though you may remain unconvinced of their outlook.
I can relate and in some ways I was right there with you but maybe about 15 years earlier.
I would like to be moderate, I even worked at it but in the past 20 years, there does not seem to be a moderate position.
The leftist turn of the democrats is for me, impossible to follow. IMHO we must turn radically to the right to get back to the middle! But that is just me.
Galatians 3:26-28 [ NASB ]
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
To extend the point (not that the scriptures need my elaboration)
There is also neither Conservative nor Liberal, There is neither Republican nor Democrat (nor Libertarian, nor Independant), nor I suppose Tory nor Labour, nor whatever political party to which a believer may hold. All those who have accepted the Lord are brothers.
IMHO, the country should first build a centrist majority, then we could steer a more united country in the direction we choose together. There is no win for the country when it is one extreme deamonizing and undoing what the other extreme did, which only leaves an agrieved opposition.
Our founding fathers split power wherever possible, and tried to promote compromise as well as protection for minority opinions, but the party system does everything it can to subvert this and have the least majority roll over dissention.
The scriptures do not predict a robust, fair and just society to be built by mankind. I do not look to man's politics to produce a Christian society. As Christians, I think we should concentrate on persons around us, leading them to Christ, each as individuals.
Political bickering from Churches is a poor witness.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
To extend the point (not that the scriptures need my elaboration)
There is also neither Conservative nor Liberal, There is neither Republican nor Democrat (nor Libertarian, nor Independant), nor I suppose Tory nor Labour, nor whatever political party to which a believer may hold. All those who have accepted the Lord are brothers.
I too have problems with the leftist turn in the democratic party. But, swinging hard right only further deepens the division as much as the left.
IMHO, the country should first build a centrist majority, then we could steer a more united country in the direction we choose together. There is no win for the country when it is one extreme deamonizing and undoing what the other extreme did, which only leaves an agrieved opposition.
Our founding fathers split power wherever possible, and tried to promote compromise as well as protection for minority opinions, but the party system does everything it can to subvert this and have the least majority roll over dissention.
The scriptures do not predict a robust, fair and just society to be built by mankind. I do not look to man's politics to produce a Christian society. As Christians, I think we should concentrate on persons around us, leading them to Christ, each as individuals.
Political bickering from Churches is a poor witness.
I refuse to let my dislike of one side or the other compell my support of the other. I look for where I can agree (but not agree on how bad something is}, I will support what I think will benefit the country.
Agreed. However.......politics has become a vehicle to obtain POWER and POWER = MONEY!
Good point. How about something a little closer to home: What if someone brought something else up that was much closer to their home and/or family, and well-being? The buying of a car scenario might very well be a derailment of the Genesis topic, but what about matters of much deeper import in a personal life and family that's far more important than a Genesis study? I'm sure we can agree that too would be a derailment, and possibly a disappointment to the others who came expecting a Genesis study. How would you weigh and balance that?
Granted, there are some who are selfish enough to go away disappointed, and who would be fine with telling those in need to go, be well fed and warm. That level of coldness does exist in our churches, as sad as that is to admit.
What if all the guided studies were interrupted with real, genuine need? I'm sure we both agree on the necessary outcome of that scenario, but there are those out there who are not so godly and compassionate. I'm sure we've all encountered such.
Just some thoughts...
MM
Well of course, any personal matter or family situation would take precedent. That would be the moderators call.
In a prepared, advertized study as I was talking about, and a person brought up apersonal concern, it has been my experience that everyone in the room would want to give help and or advice to that situation at the expence of the said study.
PEOPLE are more important than THINGS.
I used the car as an extreme example. Allow me to update that example.
I ask you to teach a class on the Grace of God. We advertise that study in the church bulletin and 25 people come to it. YOU have done the study, done the work and have all the Scriptures prepared and the 1st thing that a person asks you to explain is........
"Where did Cains wife come from"?????
That is not a personal problem and it has nothing to do with the study you prepared.
Now you can take time away from YOUR study to answer that question.
Or you can say something like......"Lets do our work on GRACE and if we have time we can talk about Cains wife".
Brother, why not start a home fellowship in your house, if possible? In that setting, with all the people in attendance facing each other like a family, it does foster too much the phenomenon of the one guy in the limelight than it should. That's not what we do in my home churches. In our home churches, the limelight is fixated on each and every believer present, not on some main attraction? Either the man is the attraction, with a topic as the alleged catalyst, or the believers, with Christ on the Throne of the meeting and the lives present.
When you read the NT books, do you see 'pastor' on ever other page as the one being addressed? No
Throughout the NT, we all see the BELIEVERS all standing center stage in the limelight when it comes to the gathering of believers. Did Paul exclusively address pastors and elders throughout his epistles? No. He MOSTLY addressed the 'brethren', which is gender specific, not neuter or feminine. His encouragements were to the brothers, who then spread those encouragements to the women and children under their care.
Your wife craves a good thing, and there are ways of meeting and nourishing that deep-seated need. It may require stepping out into uncharted territory in your personal life, which is what I did here. Planting house churches is part of what I do, in conjunction with many other ministerial endeavors. If you need help, let me know and I will do what I can from a distance, just as Paul did through his letters to the various churches.
It's one thing to talk the talk, and quite another to offer direct assistance. I'm here for you and anyone else here who has that same type craving for something of greater substance, and I'm sure Major, Bob and others here would also step in with encouragement and uplifting to help you develop something wonderful and meaningful in your own home with local people who also crave something of greater substance than looking at the backs of other people's heads. I have yet to meet that one individual out there who has mastered the art of fellowshipping with the backs of other people's heads.
There are answers to your dilemma, Siloam. We're here to help. That's what this community is all about.
MM
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That's a rare thing, Major, that your experience is such that none went away disappointed. My experience in various church organizations has shown to me that there are always some who would and did go away disappointed when there was someone or some people who brought forth needs of far greater importance than some lesson the others could study on their own if only they cracked their Bibles open more than once or twice a week.
Thanks for the discussion. This is good stuff.
MM
One of my wife's sisters (she has many) who lives about 30 minutes away has expressed interest in stydying with us. I think it would be great, and would not mind driving there or having her over, or meeting someplace in the middle, but we never seem to actually get it going.
I have asked my wife if she would like to go to her sisters church, but appearatly she goes to a church considerably farther from mt house.
I have hosted Bible studies as well as been just a participant before and am familiar with several approaches including using published materials or read and comment formats either by book or by topic. Neither presents problems in my mind.
The only reservation I can see is her husband, who never seemed interested in spiriual things. We have had dinner out together a couple of times, ad while he is cordial, he seems to be putting on an act for his wife. For myself, I would approach study involvng him as demonstrating to him what it is to be a Christian.
But beyond making it clear that I am willing to adapt as needed to get things going, I must let wife and sister work out when and where.
As far as sturying between my wife and I alone, we do that. A topic will come up and we will find and discuss relevant scriptures.
I need to proof read my own posts.
I meant to say that sitting together like a family fosters a far deeper intimacy of fellowship...REAL fellowship, not that surface stuff most call "fellowship" with each one looking at the backs of each other's heads as an audience member.
Many people prefer being no more than an audience member, and that's fine for them. More power to them. The audience thing simply isn't something that fits where I am in my spiritual journey.
MM