There is direct evidence for Gen 1, not for the big bang and human evolution

[Major]

Are you espousing the Gap Theory between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2?

Hebrew word for "day" is YOM.

Strongs 3117. Hebrew word....."yom".

Definition......age, always, continually, daily, birth, each, today,

NASB Translation
Afternoon, age, age, all, always.

When I first began to consider this topic, the 1st person I read to understand was Dr. J Vernon Magee. He was a proponent of the "Gap" theory.

The gap theory is the view that God created a fully functional earth with all animals, including the dinosaurs and other creatures we know only from the fossil record. Then, the theory goes, something happened to destroy the earth completely—most likely the fall of Satan to earth—so that the planet became without form and void. At this point, God started all over again, recreating the earth in its paradise form as further described in Genesis. The gap theory, which is distinct from theistic evolution and the day-age theory is also called old-earth creationism, gap creationism, and the ruin-reconstruction theory.

God created the heavens and the earth. Then verse 2 begins a detailed breakdown of the step-by-step process that verse 1 summarizes. However, the statement that “the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the waters” vs #2.

This is puzzling because the Creation process had not begun but there was WATER on the earth! The idea that God created a useless and shapeless earth is an uncomfortable position for some conservative theologians, and this leads them to the gap theory, or an old-earth perspective.

For me...........I do not know. What I am sure of is that Adam and Eve did not live with dinosaurs. I
am only posing speculations and asking questions.

 

[BibleLover]

Hebrew word for "day" is YOM.

Strongs 3117. Hebrew word....."yom".

Definition......age, always, continually, daily, birth, each, today,

NASB Translation
Afternoon, age, age, all, always.

When I first began to consider this topic, the 1st person I read to understand was Dr. J Vernon Magee. He was a proponent of the "Gap" theory.

The gap theory is the view that God created a fully functional earth with all animals, including the dinosaurs and other creatures we know only from the fossil record. Then, the theory goes, something happened to destroy the earth completely—most likely the fall of Satan to earth—so that the planet became without form and void. At this point, God started all over again, recreating the earth in its paradise form as further described in Genesis. The gap theory, which is distinct from theistic evolution and the day-age theory is also called old-earth creationism, gap creationism, and the ruin-reconstruction theory.

God created the heavens and the earth. Then verse 2 begins a detailed breakdown of the step-by-step process that verse 1 summarizes. However, the statement that “the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the waters” vs #2.

This is puzzling because the Creation process had not begun but there was WATER on the earth! The idea that God created a useless and shapeless earth is an uncomfortable position for some conservative theologians, and this leads them to the gap theory, or an old-earth perspective.

For me...........I do not know. What I am sure of is that Adam and Eve did not live with dinosaurs. I
am only posing speculations and asking questions.

It's not surprising that God might create the earth fully equipped with water because liquid water is the most basic element needed to support life. Liquid water is one of the things scientists look for on other planets to determine whether those planets could sustain life.

The Gap Theory lacks biblical evidence and is now considered discredited.

 

[Dave F.]

Godhelpus said........
" that it is the light of God that is in all of us, yet that light is never called day. "

What?....

I asked Godhelpus this question, Since God didn't create the sun, moon, and stars until day 4, what was the light when God said "Let there be light."?
Part of his response was this...
The answer is that Scripture doesn't say He created light twice, but only once with the stars and sun and moon. What He did in the universe first, was command light to shine. We see in that He was not speaking of created light by a luminary, but was His own true light to shine within His own creation.

It was to this comment that I was saying "That light is never called day." Looking back at that post I see that it was a bit confusing.

His stance is that there is no evidence for the Big Bang. I had played the devil's advocate in asking this question.

 

[Major]

I asked Godhelpus this question, Since God didn't create the sun, moon, and stars until day 4, what was the light when God said "Let there be light."?
Part of his response was this...
The answer is that Scripture doesn't say He created light twice, but only once with the stars and sun and moon. What He did in the universe first, was command light to shine. We see in that He was not speaking of created light by a luminary, but was His own true light to shine within His own creation.

It was to this comment that I was saying "That light is never called day." Looking back at that post I see that it was a bit confusing.

His stance is that there is no evidence for the Big Bang. I had played the devil's advocate in asking this question.

With all due respect to our dear brother, the more I try to understand his posts, the more confused I become.

As for evidence for a Big Bang, I have NO clue. I do know however if there was, it was God who struck the match. I did look up what evidence there is for a Big Bang creation and...........

1. Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation:
Discovered in 1964, this radiation is the afterglow of the Big Bang, filling the universe uniformly.

2. Expansion of the Universe:
Hubble's discovery showed a relationship between a galaxy's distance from Earth and its speed, indicating expansion.

3. Abundance of Light Elements:
The theory of primordial nucleosynthesis explains the observed abundance of light elements.

4. Large-Scale Structure of the Universe:
The distribution of galaxies and galaxy clusters light years apart supports some kind of exploaion.

5. Redshift of Distant Galaxies:
The redshift observed in light from distant galaxies indicates that they are moving away from us, consistent with an expanding universe.

 

[Major]

It's not surprising that God might create the earth fully equipped with water because liquid water is the most basic element needed to support life. Liquid water is one of the things scientists look for on other planets to determine whether those planets could sustain life.

The Gap Theory lacks biblical evidence and is now considered discredited.

Oh I agree about the Gap thing.

However, it has always intrigued me about the water being here before Creation. It is almost as if it was left over.

 

[Godhelpus]

Genesis 1:3-5
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

How can there be a 24 hr day when the sun, moon and stars were not created until day 4?

Job 9:8

He alone stretches out the heavens _ and treads on the waves of the sea.
Psalm 104:2

The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; _ he stretches out the heavens like a tent

Bible shows the expansion of the universe.

You said..."By proving the universe is expanding, it proves the universe was less expansive, but it does not mean it was formed from hot gas alone."

The Big Bang did not come from hot gas, God created from nothing... before the Big Bang there was nothing. It actually proves the word of God.

Are you saying the Big Bang can properly apply to Gen 1, after verse 2? God created all the expanse of stars (hosts of heaven) at once, in His own instantaneous 'Big Bang'? If so, then I wouldn't object. God's Big Bang is instantaneously from nothing, not from a great ball of hot gas 'waiting' to explode and form stars...

However, that's certainly not what the cosmologists mean. They say the universe of stars began from a concentrated hot ball of gas in one place, that eventually exploded to form stars later in time. They wrongly deduce it from two proven facts of cosmology: First, That there are new stars still being formed from hot gases, and second, that the universe of stars is expanding.

God's instantaneous 'explosion' of stars from nothing, does not exclude more stars being newly formed from hot gasses, nor prevents the universe from expanding.

The debate over the age of the earth began long before evolution and the Big Bang. The Bible tells us that God created all things it does not go into the details of how He did it. There is no timeline between verse 1 and verse 2 and 3. Just because one may believe in an old earth does not automatically mean they believe in evolution.

I agree. We don't even have to agree there was an old heaven and earth before this one, in order to know there was some unaccounted time before Gen 1:3, because there certainly was a time of deep waters flooding the heaven and earth. There is no timeline given for how long the Spirit moved, or hovered, upon the face of the deep. Nor even if He hovered the whole time it was flooded.

This is a debate that only the creator can answer when we are called home to Him.

This is also true. We can sometimes get brief pictures and hints from Scripture about some things, but the secrets of the Lord belong to Him. We do trust that He keeps no secret from us, for being saved by Him, conformed to His image, and resurrected from the dead unto life.

 

[Godhelpus]

Are you espousing the Gap Theory between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2?

If that's what it's commonly called, then Yes. More accurately between Gen 1:1 and 1:3. The gap is the deep dark waters over all the heaven and earth, that is void of light and life. I've given my reading for it from 1 Peter 3:5-7.

Just as in the kingdom of God, there is all light and no darkness at all, so there was in the heaven and earth all darkness, and no light at all. Until God said, Let there be light, and there was.

 

[cocoa]

Not so my dear friend. The moons light is a reflection from the sun!

Genesis 1:16 says God made 2 lights.

 

[BibleLover]

If that's what it's commonly called, then Yes. More accurately between Gen 1:1 and 1:3. The gap is the deep dark waters over all the heaven and earth, that is void of light and life. I've given my reading for it from 1 Peter 3:5-7.

Just as in the kingdom of God, there is all light and no darkness at all, so there was in the heaven and earth all darkness, and no light at all. Until God said, Let there be light, and there was.

The Gap Theory has been discredited due to lack of concrete biblical support. It would be reasonable for God to create the earth readily equipped with water since water is the primary building block element needed to bring about and sustain life.

The Gap Theory was an attempt to reconcile worldly naturalistic philosophy with the Bible.

2 Peter 3:5-7 is about the creation mentioned in Genesis 1:1-2 and Noah's flood, not about some previous creation.

 

[BibleLover]

Oh I agree about the Gap thing.

However, it has always intrigued me about the water being here before Creation. It is almost as if it was left over.

There is nothing to indicate that water was present before creation. It was probably part of earth's creation in verse 1.

 

[Major]

There is nothing to indicate that water was present before creation. It was probably part of earth's creation in verse 1.

Could be. Probably was.

But the fact is that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
Then in vs 3 the Creation process begins with "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

I have no problem with the water, but It appears then that the water in Genesis 1 was therefore literal, and this water was used in the preparation of life on the earth.

Heb. 12:26-27..........
"whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain."

Can we infer from Hebrews 12:26-27 that at one time the earth was shaken so that all created things at one time in pre-history were removed from the earth? Was there a gap of an indefinite period of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 when this happened (dinosaurs?), when both the Spirit and water appeared to make all things new?

Something to think about.

 

[Major]

Genesis 1:16 says God made 2 lights.

Agreed, but it does not say anything about the lesser light (Moon) having its own light source. The reflection from the sun was proven by science.

 

[Major]

If that's what it's commonly called, then Yes. More accurately between Gen 1:1 and 1:3. The gap is the deep dark waters over all the heaven and earth, that is void of light and life. I've given my reading for it from 1 Peter 3:5-7.

Just as in the kingdom of God, there is all light and no darkness at all, so there was in the heaven and earth all darkness, and no light at all. Until God said, Let there be light, and there was.

No sir. That is not more accurate! The "Gap" theory we are speaking of is the lapse of time between Genesis 1:1 and vs 2 and 3.

The "Gap" theory is a teaching in which the Hebrew word for day which is "YOM" is translated as AGES! In other words, day in Genesis does not mean a 24 hour period of time but instead millions of years AGES.

The Hebrew word for "day" is יום (yom). It can refer to a day in a general sense, not specifically a twenty-four hour period.
Source:,,,,https://www.bing.com/search?

 

[Godhelpus]

The question I posed in post #6... what is that light? If the sun, moon and stars were not created until day 4, yet GOD called the light day and the dark, night. Godhelpus said that it is the light of God that is in all of us, yet that light is never called day.

But His light is called Day, and not having His light is called Night:

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Gen 1, the book of Genesis, and the whole Bible begins with the God and His revelation of Himself to man. And so, it's only sense that He first reveals the spiritual truth of Himself in Gen 1:3, with shining His light into the deep darkness.

Only on day 4 does He first create light by the stars, sun, and moon to divide natural day and night. The first light shining in the darkened world was commanded, not created. He was commanding a light to shine, that is not created:

Jhn 1:2The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men…That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

2Co 4:6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

That's why we see here, that Gen 1:3 is spoken of, when preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, for God also to shine in our hearts out of the darkness of sin and trespass. 2 Cor 4:6 proves Gen 1:3 can only be speaking of God commanding His Word, to shine in the dark flooded world of Gen 1:2.

 

[Godhelpus]

Gen 1 is not just a record of God creating the natural heaven and earth. It's not like many call it, just another creation 'story'. The Bible begins with God's instruction in who He is, not just what He does.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

Notice how the translators first capitalize Day and Night, unlike afterward when only speaking of a natural day and night. Jewish idolators have misused this spiritual revelation about God's own Day in the darkness of Gen 1:2-3. By corrupting the spiritual truth of God shining and inhabiting His own creation in Gen 1:3, and instead say that He is personifying natural day and night, the same as the heathen goddess Nyx.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This only states that the first natural day in the world, did begin with God first shining His light in the deep darkness. It is not a backward projection, so that He is only speaking of natural day and night.

We can further confirm the spiritual revelation of Day and Night in Gen 1:3, by the Hebrew use of fullness and continually for day, and temporary and gloomy for night. God's own Day is the day of the Lord, the Lord's day, that is fully light and forever, while the night of men without Christ, is gloomy and only temporary.

Heb 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power...

God commanded His Word to first shine in the deep darkness of a world, that was void of light and life, before creating by Him the natural light of stars, sun, and moon to shine for day and night. By the Word with God in the beginning, God did not create the present heaven and earth only from without, but also from within.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

If the first light shining in the darkened heaven and earth was created natural light, and the Day and Night were only naturally divided by it, then the accusers would be correct. That Gen 1:14 contradicts Gen 1:3, because that would mean God created the same natural light, to divide the same natural day and night twice, so that the natural day and night began on day 1 and on day 4.

 

[BibleLover]

Could be. Probably was.

But the fact is that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
Then in vs 3 the Creation process begins with "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

I have no problem with the water, but It appears then that the water in Genesis 1 was therefore literal, and this water was used in the preparation of life on the earth.

Heb. 12:26-27..........
"whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain."

Can we infer from Hebrews 12:26-27 that at one time the earth was shaken so that all created things at one time in pre-history were removed from the earth? Was there a gap of an indefinite period of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 when this happened (dinosaurs?), when both the Spirit and water appeared to make all things new?

Something to think about.

To infer that this supports the gap theory is to assume the truth of the gap theory and use this verse as evidence while to explain the meaning of the verse requires the gap theory to be true. That's circular reasoning. A much simpler understanding is metaphorical considering the context of Hebrews uses the Israelite experience at Mount Sinai during the Exodus.

 

[Major]

To infer that this supports the gap theory is to assume the truth of the gap theory and use this verse as evidence while to explain the meaning of the verse requires the gap theory to be true. That's circular reasoning. A much simpler understanding is metaphorical considering the context of Hebrews uses the Israelite experience at Mount Sinai during the Exodus.

Actually I am not inferring anything. I was explaining the "Gap" position and its teaching.

 

[Major]

Gen 1 is not just a record of God creating the natural heaven and earth. It's not like many call it, just another creation 'story'. The Bible begins with God's instruction in who He is, not just what He does.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

Notice how the translators first capitalize Day and Night, unlike afterward when only speaking of a natural day and night. Jewish idolators have misused this spiritual revelation about God's own Day in the darkness of Gen 1:2-3. By corrupting the spiritual truth of God shining and inhabiting His own creation in Gen 1:3, and instead say that He is personifying natural day and night, the same as the heathen goddess Nyx.

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This only states that the first natural day in the world, did begin with God first shining His light in the deep darkness. It is not a backward projection, so that He is only speaking of natural day and night.

We can further confirm the spiritual revelation of Day and Night in Gen 1:3, by the Hebrew use of fullness and continually for day, and temporary and gloomy for night. God's own Day is the day of the Lord, the Lord's day, that is fully light and forever, while the night of men without Christ, is gloomy and only temporary.

Heb 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power...

God commanded His Word to first shine in the deep darkness of a world, that was void of light and life, before creating by Him the natural light of stars, sun, and moon to shine for day and night. By the Word with God in the beginning, God did not create the present heaven and earth only from without, but also from within.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

If the first light shining in the darkened heaven and earth was created natural light, and the Day and Night were only naturally divided by it, then the accusers would be correct. That Gen 1:14 contradicts Gen 1:3, because that would mean God created the same natural light, to divide the same natural day and night twice, so that the natural day and night began on day 1 and on day 4.

Charles Spurgeon once said.........
“Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right.”

The "Jesus Only" movement, also known as Oneness Pentecostalism from which YOU have said you are a minister, teaches that there is only one God, but denies the tri-unity of God.

Now I do not mean any disrespect but since you volunteered your position, it is only right that you defend it.

So, In other words, Oneness theology does not recognize the distinct persons of the Godhead and is in fact so close to Universalism that if you were in the same room with the lights out, you would not know who is who.

According to the doctrine you are a minister in, there is one God, but he only exists in one manifestation at a time. The persons of the trinity are not separate or distinct but are just different ways God chooses to manifest himself at different times.
Your theology is that God first operated as the creator. Then he took on flesh and became Jesus Christ to be our Savior. Now he is the indwelling Spirit who lives within us.

I have to ask that if you as a Oneness Pentecostal minister have gotten the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity so wrong, why do you think you have the Creation story correct? You see, the things that are “almost right” create doctrinal error and should be examined further.

 

[cocoa]

I have to ask that if you as a Oneness Pentecostal minister have gotten the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity so wrong, why do you think you have the Creation story correct? You see, the things that are “almost right” create doctrinal error and should be examined further.