That's my BOY!!! ---So please DO give to the Lord, but ensure that your money is doing what Jesus said to!- Amen to this Bondman...
Tithes
- Thread starter honestjeenn
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Don't we all think that the FIRST THING to know is the revelation of God to His "intended message" from His words?
Let us not forget our Lord Jesus' "Destroy this temple..."
Even the Apostles cannot understand the message of our Lord without expounding on it!
* Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
The Disciples thought of the "leaven of the bread" for they forgot to bring:
* Matthew 16:5 And when his disciples were come to the other side,
Our Lord rebuked them for "not understanding what He meant by "leaven."
* Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
* Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
REGARDING "TITHES" DOES GOD REALLY MEAN MATERIAL/FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTION? HERE IS THE "LAW ON TITHES."
* Deuteronomy 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
* Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
I wasn't actually saying anything; merely summarising a story from the bible. I take on board the way in which you interpreted the text, but you didn't mention Ananias and Sapphira. I thought their untimely deaths were an essential, never to be forgotten, part of the story...
Unfortunately this is a very common thing these days, and continues to grow. I'd hate to be in their place come judgment day and have to answer for their doings.
All very thought-provoking commentary here. The consensus so far seems to be that:
1. We are no longer under the law, hence, not under compulsion.
2. We ought to give what we give willingly, cheerfully, and generously.
3. We ought to be grateful for what God has provided, and giving is an expression of that gratitude.
4. We ought to be good stewards of our giving, understanding what God values and giving accordingly.
1. We are no longer under the law, hence, not under compulsion.
2. We ought to give what we give willingly, cheerfully, and generously.
3. We ought to be grateful for what God has provided, and giving is an expression of that gratitude.
4. We ought to be good stewards of our giving, understanding what God values and giving accordingly.
Yes, their deaths are central to the story, as it caused great fear in the Church at that time. I wish the Bible would have included just a little bit more detail because what I have been taught and have always believed is that they died because they lied, basically, made as if they were giving all when in fact they weren't. If they had simply been honest about what they were doing, there wouldn't have been a problem. I'm still sticking with this view, but I can certainly see it from the perspective that the retaining of some of the proceeds from the sale was the central issue. A bit more detail in the Biblical narrative would have clarified one viewpoint or the other.
In the case of Ananias and Sapphira, is not the assumption was that they "disobeyed law on Tithes" LITERALLY?
How does the LITERAL interpretation of the WORD of God reconcile with the DESIRED "charateristic of the able Ministers of the New Testament?"
* 2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Of course the "letter" here refers to the LITERAL, while the "spirit" pertains to the SPIRITUAL interpretation of the WORD, having in mind:
1. "Destroy this TEMPLE..."
2. "Beware of the LEAVEN of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
What would happen today if someone understated their income in order to reduce the amount of their tithe to the church? Would they die for telling a lie? Or were Ananias and Sapphira singled out for special treatment?
MinisterTony
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Tithing is still a biblical principle!
More is said of it in the Old Testament than in the New Testament. This is because the tithe was connected with the tribe of Levi and their ministry for Israel.
Ultimately the tithe belongs to the Lord, not the church or the pastors! God redirects the tithe in the Old Testament to the Levites for their service in the temple and especially since they received no land as the other tribes did! And in Matt 23:23 Jesus clearly said that tithing remains in the New Testament era.
And 1Cor 9: 1-14 is the clearest passage in the NT regarding tithing. Paul refers to those who worked in the temple were paid from the monies that went into the temple. Then he says, "in the same way those who preach the gospel should live from the Gospel." It seems that he says that the way the Levites were paid was the model for the NT era preacher.
What you have to decide is whether the pastor is actually doing the work of a preacher or not!! If you do then give them your tithes. If you think they are not then give it elsewhere, e.g. Bible Society, or like me, place your tithe towards evangelism materials to lead others to Jesus.
I personally place my first 10% of my income [Tithe] into a investment portfolio where it earns interest and compounds, and when it reaches a nice amount, I use it to give to Pastors, those working full time for the Lord. And I use any other money, offerings above the 10% to print out Christian material to give out for free to people to lead them to Jesus. This way my tithe earns interest and compound interest and accumulates nicely to be able to support those working full time for God, and to use for the glory of Jesus and to share the Gospel.
But in Bible times there were no printed bibles and orphanages etc. There were only the priests.
And sorry, but I personally do not believe the tithe in the Church today is used properly. Ring up your local church conference and ask them to tell you where the tithe goes and you may be very suprised.
More is said of it in the Old Testament than in the New Testament. This is because the tithe was connected with the tribe of Levi and their ministry for Israel.
Ultimately the tithe belongs to the Lord, not the church or the pastors! God redirects the tithe in the Old Testament to the Levites for their service in the temple and especially since they received no land as the other tribes did! And in Matt 23:23 Jesus clearly said that tithing remains in the New Testament era.
And 1Cor 9: 1-14 is the clearest passage in the NT regarding tithing. Paul refers to those who worked in the temple were paid from the monies that went into the temple. Then he says, "in the same way those who preach the gospel should live from the Gospel." It seems that he says that the way the Levites were paid was the model for the NT era preacher.
What you have to decide is whether the pastor is actually doing the work of a preacher or not!! If you do then give them your tithes. If you think they are not then give it elsewhere, e.g. Bible Society, or like me, place your tithe towards evangelism materials to lead others to Jesus.
I personally place my first 10% of my income [Tithe] into a investment portfolio where it earns interest and compounds, and when it reaches a nice amount, I use it to give to Pastors, those working full time for the Lord. And I use any other money, offerings above the 10% to print out Christian material to give out for free to people to lead them to Jesus. This way my tithe earns interest and compound interest and accumulates nicely to be able to support those working full time for God, and to use for the glory of Jesus and to share the Gospel.
But in Bible times there were no printed bibles and orphanages etc. There were only the priests.
And sorry, but I personally do not believe the tithe in the Church today is used properly. Ring up your local church conference and ask them to tell you where the tithe goes and you may be very suprised.
Is not everything we have God's?
Yes. That is what I believe. It is similar, in my opinion, to how we are now continually in Jesus' Sabbath rest (which is not an invitation to debate that topic in this thread, BTW -one thing at a time.
) rather than focusing our spiritual attention on one day of the week. I think we would live and manage our affairs quite differently if we would adopt the perspective of the steward rather than the owner.Ananias and Sapphira were made an example of, yes. Otherwise we'd have people dying left and right for shortchanging God in any number of ways. This time in church history was also unique as for the vast majority of the last 2000 years Christians have owned property and made money and disposed of it as they have seen fit without dropping dead. I didn't see any command of God that people liquidate their property and possessions and bring the proceeds to the apostles. I believe it was an outpouring of their love, devotion, and generosity inspired by that love and devotion of God. It may also have been given impetus by the notion that Jesus would be returning very shortly.
How often do people today die because they didn't tithe 10% of their gross income, or even their net income? How many people die today because they don't liquidate all their assets and give it to the Church?
I believe that, today, a person who lies to God begins to fall under deception. A person who withholds from God is subject to the dynamic of reaping sparingly.
The bottom line, in any case, is that Christians today need to find excuses to give, rather than excuses not to give. We need to learn to trust God for our needs and to be so in tune with His Spirit that generosity flows from our bones. We need to take a hard look at how we as individuals and we as stewards of tithes, offerings, and gifts (elders, deacons, voting members, treasurers, pastors, heads of ministries, etc.) use these assets. And this ought to be, as Fil3232003 pointed out, according to the Spirit rather than under the Law.
No I wouldn't. I know where it goes - creative bookkeeping is an art form. Just recently here in Adelaide, the Anglican Church was in hot water because it tried to bully Anglicare to hand over several million dollars of charity money to make court-ordered compensation payments to child abuse victims. The bullying stopped, only when the ploy became known to the public.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...-workers-victims/story-e6frea83-1225872772338
Jesus took on the sins of mankind, and Ananias and Sapphira helped him to carry the load? I wonder if they felt privileged or deprived as they dropped dead?
"Otherwise we'd have people dying left and right for shortchanging God in any number of ways". Is that mentioned in the bible, or just a personal opinion?
Paul mentions on several occasions that the money he collected is destined for Jerusalem (and, I assume, the apostles) so maybe he knew something that we do not - but that's conjecture on my part.
I wonder if the outpouring of their love and devotion faltered slightly when they realised that they were going to die for telling a lie? Mine would.
A LAW needs to be understood, enforced, obeyed, and must entail PUNISHMENT.
For example, for the LAW on “Thou shalt not steal.”
Is it not clear enough not to understand that “stealing means taking anything of value not owned, like mney, jewelry, real property, and so forth,”
This was how the RELIGIOUS LEADERS enforced this LAW ON STEALING on the “two thieves at the right and left hand” of JESUS on the cross. Perhaps everybody accepts this interpretation of stealing.
BUT LOOK!
Here is how our Lord Jesus Christ defined “stealing.”
* John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
The “door of the sheepfold?” Again Jesus Christ revealed it!
* John 10:9 I am the door…
Finally, revealing the TRUTH about stealing and the PUNISHMENT!
· Joh 14:6 Jesus said…I am the TRUTH…
WHO were violating this “Law on stealing” in the eyes of JESUS CHRIST? Let us listen to Him:
* Matthew 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
* Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
* Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
* Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
* Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
WHY did Jesus not rebuke or condemn the “two thieves on the cross with Him?”
Something to think about!
WHAT really is the “intended meaning” of the “LAW on TITHES?”
WHY did Jesus say:
* Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
THEREFORE, Jesus must have “preached” the Law on Tithes in the 4 gospels, and He must reveal this to us as He does with “Thou shalt not steal.”
You're misunderstanding my points. Many people have lied to God and have withheld from Him, yet they mostly live out their natural lives. If the incident with Ananias and Sapphira were meant to establish a pattern, people should be dropping like flies. In that respect, they were singled out to put the fear of God into people. If their sin was not submitting all of the proceeds from their property, then anyone who gives less than 100% of their income and assets ought to die also. Unless there was a specific command given directly to them or to the local Church in general that they MUST give all their assets to the apostles, limited in scope so that it doesn't apply to the vast majority of modern Christians who own property and retain the bulk of their income for their own use, then the focus of their sin is on the deception. If there was such a direct and specific command (which I have not found), then their failure to submit all they had was the primary sin, a violation of that specific command, and the lie just a means of accomplishing it. This, then, would be giving under compulsion.
I think the Church's outpouring of their love and devotion would falter equally if they realized that they would die if they didn't give all their assets to God. I know mine would. It would then be giving driven by fear and self-preservation.
The Church took up many collections, some of which helped Paul in his missionary endeavours and some of which were administered to meet needs in various congregations. I have no problem with the people presenting their money to the apostles to be administered by them. I have no reason to believe that they were anything other than good stewards of what was entrusted to them. Unfortunately, there are many prominent figures today (and many not-so-prominent figures who have adopted their patterns) who do not inspire that same confidence, to circle back to Jeen's original point.
The presumption here is that the "Law on Tithe" is literaly understood and followed. But this is what is written:
* 2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
The "letter" refers to the LITERAL application of the word of God.
The "spirit" refers to the SPIRITUAL application of the word of God.
That's part of what I'm saying. There was no law laid down where A&S had to sell all their property and give it to the Apostles. They were not violating a statute which carried the penalty of death. Specific numbers aren't given, but I doubt they even violated the Old Testament Law on tithing. I don't even get the sense from Scripture that the Apostles solicited any of the donations related to this episode, but that they were a spontaneous gesture by believers full of the Joy of the Lord.
Anyway, I'm not trying to make everyone agree to a specific theological point. My concern is that people not come under bondage, nor be burdened by what was meant to be a blessing.
If only God reveals the SPIRITUAL or "intended message of the law on Tithes," then everything we read on the subject would be made very clear without any contradiction with what is written in the Old Testament books.
Example, what is the equivalent of "literal food" to the "intended message" of God? This is demonstrated to Jeremiah:
* Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
Therefore, in TITHING why does God require the offeror "to eat" what is being offered?
* Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Let us examine very carefully how God uses the "language of man" with His "words that are expressed in parable."
When Jesus Christ fasted for 40 days and 40 nights, who among many people do not see what the Devil see that "Jesus Christ had His empty stomach" that, according to the Devil and to many people, He was supposed "to eat" in order to alleviae His hunger.
But look!
The "intended message" of Jesus Christ for His "fasting" is "to hunger for the WORD of God."
Mat 4:4 "...Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Does not in TITHING God want us "to offfer wheat, corn, bread, oil, wine" and then "to eat" in the "place" in order for "His NAME" to be exalted?
Have we carefully thought all these; they are written in the Holy Bible, for God not only to expound but to demonstrate His "intended message" for a particular subject and in this case the Law on TITHING. "
Let us notice the subject for TITHING:
* wheat, salt, wine, oil (Ezra 6:9),
* unleavened bread, fine flour (Lev 2:1),
* ram without blemish (Exo 29:1-2),
* corn, ox, sheep, first of the fleece of sheep (Deut. 18:3-4),
* the firstborn of both family and herd (Exo 13:2),
* the firstfruits of harvest (Exo 23:19),
* young pigeons or turtledoves (Lev 1:14), and
* 10th of the herd that passes the rod (Lev 27:32).
All these are for "eating" as required in:
* Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Perhaps one would wonder how the foregoing edict could be translated into money.
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