MinisterTony
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Do you tithe? If no, why not?
Tithes
- Thread starter honestjeenn
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Do you tithe? If no, why not?
Because I believe, fully subscribe, and submit to the TRUTH in following the "intended message" of the "inspired words of God" in the HOLY BIBLE:
* * 2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
I follow what Paul said:
* 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Therefore I tried to follow the steps of the original Apostles, Paul being the leading one:
* Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
* Acts 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
Hence, I follow the LAW ON TITHES spiritually and not literally.
MinisterTony
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1Cor 9: 1-14 is the clearest passage in the NT regarding tithing. Paul refers to those who worked in the temple were paid from the monies that went into the temple. Then he says, "in the same way those who preach the gospel should live from the Gospel." He is saying that the way the Levites were paid was the model for the NT era preacher.
May I please ask that you answer these following questions for me:
1. If everyone only tithed "spiritually" and not literally, how does your Pastor support his family and live and yet still work full time for the Lord and your Church?
2. Do you expect him to get a second job so he can earn money to support himself and his family?
Answer for No. 1 question:
OF COURSE not everyone "tithe spiritually" because Jesus Christ said:
* Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
ONLY the "chosen few" "tithe spiritually" for they alone could fully comprehend the "intended message" of the Law on Tithes that JESUS CHRIST said:
* Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
MinisterTony
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May I please ask you to show me where there is a connection between Mat 22:14 and tithing that God taught that only a few are asked and expected to tithe and others not. Thank you.
MinisterTony, Sir, how about looking at the pure Christianity in the first century where the "Pastoral System" was never practiced?
I suppose what you have in mind is present-day Christianity that is divided into sects and denominations that employ the "Pastoral System" clearly adopted from the mother CATHOLIC CHURCH.
Never does Pure Christianity today practice the "Pastoral System" because it is against the principle set by GOD:
* 1 Samuel 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
1 Samuel 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1 Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
He being the sole PASTOR or Teacher:
* 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Do we lack wisdom?
* James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
The sole condition, read:
To be a "babe" (Mat 11:25) or "suckling"Isa 28:9"
Only "a few" embrace Pure Christianity today, for many like to have "Pastors, Teachers, or Leaders" in spiritual matters.
MinisterTony
Inactive
Can you please show me and prove to me that the Disciples and first Century Christians never tithed?
Secondly, how did full time pastors feed their families and survive if nobody paid him?
In the first place, the first Century Christians never adopted the "Pastoral System" that, since Old Testament time because God condemned it:
* 1 Samuel 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
* 1 Samuel 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
* 1 Samuel 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
* 1 Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
PAUL and the other Apostles never took upon themselves as “leaders” of the Disciples without “disobeying our Lord’s admonition is Luk 22:24-26 and Mat 23:8-9.”
There is a misconception that, just because PAUL talked to the different groups of believers he took the position of “a leader.” What Paul wrote became “part of the Sacred Scriptures.”
No wonder, because the “Pastoral System” was never adopted by the early Christians is Paul’s own statement in the following showing the example:
* 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
* Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
* Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
And to others who may have the idea of imposing the LITERAL application of the “Law on Tithes,” he told his listeners:
* 2 Thessalonians 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
* 2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
* 2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
MinisterTony
Inactive
You totally avoided answering my questions and giving a direct answer, and I will not ask again, because I don't believe you will provide an answer.
MiniserTony, Sir, do I need to state very specifically if "full time pastors feed their families and survive if nobody paid him" if the first century Christians to whom I base my belief "feed their families?"
Nowhere in the HOLY BIBLE do I read the Apostles practiced the "Pastoral System" that God condemns.
MinisterTony
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Well, thank God that not everyone believes as you, because that would leave all Pastors homeless and in a bad situation of working full time with no income and not able to pay their rent and feed their families.
But I respect people's rights to have their own beliefs, so let's agree to disagree and I won't comment any further after this post.
Let the TRUTH in the WORD be to the "poor in spirit," the "babes and suckling" in the eyes of God, for to them the "kingdom of heaven" is prepared:
* Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
* Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MinisterTony
Inactive
I pay tithe to my Pastor so he can work full time for the Lord, support his flock and be able to pay rent and feed his family. That is my decision and that's what I want to do and God convicted me to do. I am housebound a lot, and he comes visit me and organises lifts for me to Church when I am able to attend. He is working full time for God and the sheep and deserves to be able to feed his family and survive.
Let each person do as they wish.
Let each person do as they wish.
What I read the original Apostles never received TITHES from the Diciples, and they worked earning their living.
Paul remained a tent maker:
* Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
* Acts 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome
and came unto them.* Acts 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
* Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Simon Peter, James, and John remained fishermen, and only shared the word of God every sabbath since people considered that as a rest day.
Thus, we hear from Paul the following:
* Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
* Acts 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
* 2 Thessalonians 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
* 2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
* 2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
YES, Let each person do as they wish for God gave us "free will," and I only share what I read in the Sacred Scriptures.
MinisterTony
Inactive
Yes. Each person will decide if they want to support their Pastor so their Pastor can work full time supporting the flock and feed their families..or if they want to hang on to their own money instead, and do not want to give and support to their Pastor, so then the Pastor cannot work full time for the Lord and sheep and cannot feed his family.
The choice is people's and they will have to live with that choice.
Vincent
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I think the point is that the "tithing" that people do in church goes to support the church system. That is the pastors, the building, the sound equipment, the power bill, the lawnmower and the snow shovel. The theory is that this system somehow furthers the kingdom of God, thereby making tithing a good thing in the eyes of the Lord.
But if the system is not an effective means of spreading the gospel, and if the system is not something taught and recommended by Jesus or his disciples, then perhaps the system is just a big waste of money and our giving would be better directed towards homeless shelters, kids camps and the poor old lady down the street whose washing machine just broke down.
But if the system is not an effective means of spreading the gospel, and if the system is not something taught and recommended by Jesus or his disciples, then perhaps the system is just a big waste of money and our giving would be better directed towards homeless shelters, kids camps and the poor old lady down the street whose washing machine just broke down.
MinisterTony
Inactive
What would happen if every single Christian stopped tithing? What would happen to Pastors etc?
Vincent
Inactive
If everybody stopped giving to the churches, the churches would go broke and the pastors would have to look for other jobs. But I'm sure you already knew the answer to your own question.
The point is, maybe that's not such a bad thing. The question is, should we even be supporting churches at all? Surely we can't continue to support our churches just because we're worried about the pastor's incomes. There has to be a better reason than that.
The point is, maybe that's not such a bad thing. The question is, should we even be supporting churches at all? Surely we can't continue to support our churches just because we're worried about the pastor's incomes. There has to be a better reason than that.
MinisterTony
Inactive
I am confused and I am hoping you can give me clarity in case I have misunderstood you. You are a Christian, yet you don't believe it's such a bad thing if every single Pastor in the world would stop being supported by the Church and stop being able to work full time for the Lord and the Church?
Vincent
Inactive
Let me clarify. First of all, I am not sure if it would be a bad thing, which is why I prefaced my statement with "maybe". I also said that if this church system furthers the work of the Lord then it is a good thing, and we should support it.
My point is that some people on this thread, including myself, are contemplating the possibility that the church system is not of God and that it does not further God's kingdom effectively, and that therefore our money would be better spent elsewhere.
If those pastors are working full time for the Lord and doing good in the Lord's eyes then we should support them. I am just not sure if the proportion of money being tithed to the churches, is equal to the proportion of good that it does for God's kingdom. In other words, is it an effective use of our money?
I don't have a definite answer to that question, but I am leaning towards "no".
My point is that some people on this thread, including myself, are contemplating the possibility that the church system is not of God and that it does not further God's kingdom effectively, and that therefore our money would be better spent elsewhere.
If those pastors are working full time for the Lord and doing good in the Lord's eyes then we should support them. I am just not sure if the proportion of money being tithed to the churches, is equal to the proportion of good that it does for God's kingdom. In other words, is it an effective use of our money?
I don't have a definite answer to that question, but I am leaning towards "no".
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