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" Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die" (John 11:25)

It's interesting that Jesus states this in John 11 when he raises Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus was physically "dead"---he was not alive in any way. The Bible says all of us are "dead in sins"--we are spiritually dead. We can no more make ourselves alive spiritually, than Lazarus could do physically. The ONLY WAY that lazarus could live was for Jesus to RAISE HIM FROM THE DEAD.

In the same way, we cannot come to Jesus unless the Father "draws us" and we are made alive in Christ. A person cannot choose to be born-again. I did not wake up one morning and say "I think I will choose to be born-again today". No---I was born-again when GOD CHOSE for me to become one of his children. One day I could care less about God, and the next I was a NEW CREATION---not because I chose God---but because He chose me. He raised me from the spiritually dead---I did not do it of my volition. I was as dead spiritually as Lazarus was physically----God Himself had to call me to life.
You need to look closer. WHY do you think Jesus was fine with raising Lazarus from the dead? Do you think Jesus would have raised Him if he was a murdering rapist who rejected the law of God?
 
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The Calvinist view implies that there is no truly "free will".
If "free will" is not absolute, how do Satan and his angels exist?
They were all created pure and perfect, it was their choices that condemned them, their free use of their will that corrupted them. Just as the continued choice of virtue of the other 2/3s of the angels that has preserved them.

I was raised in an agnostic home and came to Christ through reason alone.
You would clam that what I state is not possible.
Amen. Every angel was in a regenerated / holy state before God. It was like a whole bunch of 5pt calvinists that then rebelled. It only makes sense that we qualify to stay with God for eternity because we actually accept Him from free will.
 
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It is impossible to discuss anything with those who will not agree on the definition of terms.

"gospel" = "good news", from god "good" + spel "story, message" (Old English)
The gospel is not the Bible. The gospel is the news of Christ's redemptive act.
Exactly. The gospel is the news of Christ's redemptive act. It is the "preaching of the cross". And Paul says that it is "foolishness to those who do not believe". If it is "foolishness" to them, then how will they ever come to believe it?

God must open their heart so they can see the truth and believe it. Many Atheists can tell you all about "Christ's redemptive act"---but the problem is they do not believe it or understand it---because if they did it would not be "foolishness" to them!
 
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You need to look closer. WHY do you think Jesus was fine with raising Lazarus from the dead? Do you think Jesus would have raised Him if he was a murdering rapist who rejected the law of God?
So y0u are saying that Lazarus was only raised from the dead due to something inherently good in him? You are missing the whole point. Lazarus was "dead". It took the work of Jesus to raise him from the dead--Lazarus could not possibly have "chosen" to be raised from the dead. He had nothing to do with being "made alive"--it WAS ALL OF GOD. That is the point--and you are missing it.
 
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You are making an assumption off of half the facts! Free will is not an illusion. What can be more disgusting then preaching that ''God so loved the world that He sent His only Son to die on the cross for SOME of you''? That is trampling the cross :sick:.
We don't need to change the scripture as you did above to draw the same conclusion.

Here's what it really says:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
To which world do you believe Jesus is referring in this passage?
(1) Is it the entire planet world of which is spoken in Acts 17:24?
(2) Or is it the Gentile-only world of which is spoken in Romans 11:12? (since Jews excluded in this passage will be saved)
(3) Or is it the wicked world of men of which is spoken in John 14:22? (to which Jesus refused to reveal himself)
(4) Or is it the rejected world for which Jesus would not pray in John 17:9?

In ALL these passages, including John 3:16, the Greek word for "world" is "kosmos," yet they ALL mean a different "world." Same word (kosmos). Different meanings. Hence, it's up to us to figure out what world Jesus is talking about when He said it. We cannot just assume that every time we see the word "world" in the scriptures that is means everyone on the planet, otherwise the scriptures I noted above would be nonsensical.

Therefore, here's what a student of the scriptures can conclude:
(1) Jesus did not die for the entire planet, otherwise the entire planet would go to heaven - and we know this isn't true.
(2) Jesus did not die only for Gentiles, since we know that some Jews are saved as well.
(3) Jesus did not die for the wicked world of men, since it says in the same verse that Jesus did not manifest himself to them.
(4) Jesus did not die for the rejected world, clearly because Jesus will not save those he refuses to pray for.

Since the world of John 3:16 cannot be any of these above, it must mean the same world of John 3:17: "the world that through Him might be saved." Another way to describe this world is from verse 16 - "whoever believes in him." But for the sake of brevity, let's just call this world "believers."

Now let's see what this passage is really telling us:
"For God so loved (believers), that he gave his only Son, that (believers) should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the (believers) to condemn the (believers), but in order that (believers) might be saved through him." (John 3:16-17)

God loves the world of believers. That is the world that God loves, and no other. It cannot mean all men indiscriminately, but for those whom Christ was given and who should be saved. All others are ruled out by the sober declarations of the Scriptures.

This is not trampling on the cross. This is what the Scriptures are telling us. The "free will" advocate can't just tack on "IF YOU ACCEPT HIM" to every verse he reads on this topic and continue to ignore the plethora of scriptures that talk of choosing, drawing, giving, ordaining, electing, predestining, etc.
 
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So y0u are saying that Lazarus was only raised from the dead due to something inherently good in him? You are missing the whole point. Lazarus was "dead". It took the work of Jesus to raise him from the dead--Lazarus could not possibly have "chosen" to be raised from the dead. He had nothing to do with being "made alive"--it WAS ALL OF GOD. That is the point--and you are missing it.
I get your point, you are clearly missing my point though.

Let me better explain. 1. Raising Lazarus from the dead was a miracle that Jesus did. You are construing scripture by making it a parallel to being dead in trespasses. 2. Jesus did the miracle because Mary asked Him too. 3. Jesus 'loved' Mary, lazarus and Martha John 11:5. Why?? Mary, because she had 'touched' Jesus. Now you assume something completely different about Lazarus? John 11:3. She had shown a desire to repent and turn to Him when SHE showed initiative and washed His feet John 12:3. 4. God shows / gives favour NOT favouritism!! Favour is shown to those that honour Him, as Mary did. Psalm 145:19 God shows favor to those who honor him, listening to their cries for help and saving them .
 
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Okay, then tell us which scripture we are twisting and what is the correct understanding of them? Jesus said to a group of unsaved, they couldn't understand his words (Jn. 8:43, 47). He told them they were "slaves" to sin (Jn. 8:34-35) incapable of either seeing or entering the Kingdom (Jn. 3). (Are slaves freed from bondage?) Jesus also said they were without the ability to come to Him unless the Father drew them (Jn. 6:44). Paul said the unsaved are blinded by Satan so they can't see the gospel (2 Cor. 4:3-4) and they are dead in sin (Eph. 2:1), not sick in sin or injured in sin. I can't speak for anyone on this board, but if you could take any or all of those passages and explain what I'm not understanding about them, I'd appreciate it.
He told them they were "slaves" to sin - Yes as we ALL were. Jesus opened the door to our cell. We can walk through or stay. The choice is ours.
incapable of either seeing or entering the Kingdom - Yes, if you stay in the cell, you won't see the outside let alone enter into some mansion there.
Are slaves freed from bondage? - If they walk out the opened door, yes.
Jesus also said they were without the ability to come to Him unless the Father drew them - and who does the Father draw? the Father doesn't pre-select who He will draw, that is simply your erroneous assumption. Scripture is crystal clear on who He draws = Psalms 51:17, 1 John 1:9, John 3:16, Matt 16:24.
Paul said the unsaved are blinded by Satan so they can't see the gospel - True. That's why the Holy Spirit and us are still here, to help them ;).
and they are dead in sin (Eph. 2:1), not sick in sin or injured in sin - Yes. If you are in your cell you are dead in sin. Dead to life. But if you walk through the open doors (we can walk)...you will be made alive unto Christ / righteousness.
 
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He told them they were "slaves" to sin - Yes as we ALL were. Jesus opened the door to our cell. We can walk through or stay. The choice is ours.
incapable of either seeing or entering the Kingdom - Yes, if you stay in the cell, you won't see the outside let alone enter into some mansion there.
Are slaves freed from bondage? - If they walk out the opened door, yes.
Jesus also said they were without the ability to come to Him unless the Father drew them - and who does the Father draw? the Father doesn't pre-select who He will draw, that is simply your erroneous assumption. Scripture is crystal clear on who He draws = Psalms 51:17, 1 John 1:9, John 3:16, Matt 16:24.
Paul said the unsaved are blinded by Satan so they can't see the gospel - True. That's why the Holy Spirit and us are still here, to help them ;).
and they are dead in sin (Eph. 2:1), not sick in sin or injured in sin - Yes. If you are in your cell you are dead in sin. Dead to life. But if you walk through the open doors (we can walk)...you will be made alive unto Christ / righteousness.
1) Do slaves have "free will"? and where is this scripture that says Jesus opened our cell door? He opened Lydia's heart in order that she might be saved. Why no one else's in that group? If He did the same for all, where does it say that?
2) If you are "dead" "blind" and "deaf" how can you walk out of your cell?
3) Which one of these passages says that the Father "draws" all of humanity using the same word? Jesus said in Jn. 6:44 that all whom the Father will draw will come to Him and He will raise them on the last day. Are you saying the Father draws "all" and that wouldn't that mean all are saved?
4) You really think a corpse can walk out of a prison cell? Paul used the word for "corpse" in Eph. 2:1.
5) If man truly has "free will" why do you pray for the salvation of others? What can God do to save a person that He isn't already doing? (I'm assuming you pray for the salvation of others as we Calvinists do.) We present the gospel and pray because God saves, why do you pray?
 
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Exactly. The gospel is the news of Christ's redemptive act. It is the "preaching of the cross". And Paul says that it is "foolishness to those who do not believe". If it is "foolishness" to them, then how will they ever come to believe it?

God must open their heart so they can see the truth and believe it. Many Atheists can tell you all about "Christ's redemptive act"---but the problem is they do not believe it or understand it---because if they did it would not be "foolishness" to them!
Agreed and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts the lost ?

John 16:8..........
"And when he (Holy Spirit) is come, he will reprove the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment. Of sin because they believe not on me".

It is the work of the Holy Spirit that causes the individual to SEE (understand) the truth.

John 15:22..........
"If I had not come and spoken to them, they had not had sin, but now they have no cloak for their sin".

Everyone who has heard the gospel is responsible for his own decision concerning Jesus Christ. To reject the invitation of God in Christ to be saved is unbelif and that is the sin that can not be forgiven.

Romans 10:17...........
"Faith come by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God".
 
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We don't need to change the scripture as you did above to draw the same conclusion.

Here's what it really says:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
To which world do you believe Jesus is referring in this passage?
(1) Is it the entire planet world of which is spoken in Acts 17:24?
(2) Or is it the Gentile-only world of which is spoken in Romans 11:12? (since Jews excluded in this passage will be saved)
(3) Or is it the wicked world of men of which is spoken in John 14:22? (to which Jesus refused to reveal himself)
(4) Or is it the rejected world for which Jesus would not pray in John 17:9?

In ALL these passages, including John 3:16, the Greek word for "world" is "kosmos," yet they ALL mean a different "world." Same word (kosmos). Different meanings. Hence, it's up to us to figure out what world Jesus is talking about when He said it. We cannot just assume that every time we see the word "world" in the scriptures that is means everyone on the planet, otherwise the scriptures I noted above would be nonsensical.

Therefore, here's what a student of the scriptures can conclude:
(1) Jesus did not die for the entire planet, otherwise the entire planet would go to heaven - and we know this isn't true.
(2) Jesus did not die only for Gentiles, since we know that some Jews are saved as well.
(3) Jesus did not die for the wicked world of men, since it says in the same verse that Jesus did not manifest himself to them.
(4) Jesus did not die for the rejected world, clearly because Jesus will not save those he refuses to pray for.

Since the world of John 3:16 cannot be any of these above, it must mean the same world of John 3:17: "the world that through Him might be saved." Another way to describe this world is from verse 16 - "whoever believes in him." But for the sake of brevity, let's just call this world "believers."

Now let's see what this passage is really telling us:
"For God so loved (believers), that he gave his only Son, that (believers) should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the (believers) to condemn the (believers), but in order that (believers) might be saved through him." (John 3:16-17)

God loves the world of believers. That is the world that God loves, and no other. It cannot mean all men indiscriminately, but for those whom Christ was given and who should be saved. All others are ruled out by the sober declarations of the Scriptures.

This is not trampling on the cross. This is what the Scriptures are telling us. The "free will" advocate can't just tack on "IF YOU ACCEPT HIM" to every verse he reads on this topic and continue to ignore the plethora of scriptures that talk of choosing, drawing, giving, ordaining, electing, predestining, etc.
Some teach and we see that again here, that "God s0 loved THE ELECT out of every tribe and nation"---not all mankind, but a select few. But if THAT be true then John 3:16 should be read as.................

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that THE WORLD through Him should be saved".

But that is NOT what the word of God actually says now is it???

It says......"WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH".

Now, the correct biblical teaching here is the "whosoever out of all the world, from every tribe, tongue, nation and color..."whosoever believeth", .....becomes a child of God! "WHOsoever believeth"........becomes a child of God!.

It is "straining-stretching-adding" to the Word of God to make the WORLD here to mean the elect only for the world in Scripture refers to the wicked. The Word of God never speaks of the saints as "the world".

Not only did God love the world, but in 1 John 2:2 we see that Christ is the "propitiation for the sins of the whole world".

So we can see clearly that to teach that the love of God is shed only upon the elect, is in fact to slander God Himself and take a narrow view of His holy character.

THINK NOW>>>>>>>>If God only loved an elect group and not the whole world, how could He be righteous, just and holy???? How could He then in fact judge the whole world? I believe in the sovereignty of God and also Bible election, but I also believe that "whosoever will" is invited to drink of the water of life freely.

I for one do not believe in hyper-Calvinism and I do not accept limited atonement. John 3:16 teaches that God so loved the WORLD that He gave the most precious Jewel in heaven that WHOEOSEVR IN THE WORLD believes in Jesus Christ, "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life".

The love of God spoken of in John 3:16 definitely clears God of injustice and respect of persons in judging the world and He will judge the world by Jesus Christ. (Philippians 2:9-11).
 
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MAJOR: Some teach and we see that again here, that "God s0 loved THE ELECT out of every tribe and nation"---not all mankind, but a select few. But if THAT be true then John 3:16 should be read as................. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that THE WORLD through Him should be saved". But that is NOT what the word of God actually says now is it??? it says......"WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH".

JACK: Of course, John 3:16 reads as you stated and no one has every said otherwise. The word that John used here is the Greek KOSMOS, not the English WORLD, and there is some distinction between them. Unlike WORLD, KOSMOS can connote a company of people, for example, "the whole earth" wondered after the beast (Rev. 13:3). Did John mean that every individual ran after the beast? Of course not! The same author also wrote, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one...." Notice the contrast between the disciples and the WORLD lying in the lap of the evil one. Did he mean that every single individual on the earth lies in the hand of Satan? Of course not! Sometimes the word means only a small portion of the world. For example, Paul said of the Church at Rome that their faith was "proclaimed throughout the whole world" (Romans 1:8). Did he mean that everyone on the globe heard about the faith of the Church in Rome? Of course not he was speaking of the Christian world. Jesus said, ...the WORLD can not receive Christ" (Jn. 14:17). Did He mean no can be saved? Of course not. Jesus, in his high priestly prayer, excluded "the WORLD" (Jn. 17:9). Yet, He specifically said He prayed for those who would believe in Him. While it is a different Greek word, Luke recorded, "There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that ALL THE WORLD should be counted and taxed..." (Luke 2:1, 3). But he was talking only about the Roman world, not Africa, not Asia, not the entire western hemisphere. Speaking of Noah, Peter, without a doubt, used the word in a restrictive sense, "...flood upon the WORLD of the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:5).

MAJOR: Now, the correct biblical teaching here is the "whosoever out of all the world, from every tribe, tongue, nation and color..."whosoever believeth", .....becomes a child of God! "WHOsoever believeth"........becomes a child of God!.

JACK: Amen! No disagreement there!

MAJOR: It is "straining-stretching-adding" to the Word of God to make the WORLD here to mean the elect only for the world in Scripture refers to the wicked. The Word of God never speaks of the saints as "the world".

JACK: I would respectfully disagree with you there. Romans 1:8, as I mentioned earlier, I see as speaking of the "Christian world." 2 Cor. 5:19, "Reconciling the world unto Himself..." Who was He reconciling unto Him? If this is an instance where the world means all individuals on the globe, then the result would be universal salvation which neither you nor I believe. Same idea with I Tim. 3:16. Jesus is called, "The Savior of the world..." (I Jn. 4:14). Can He rightly be called the Savior of the unsaved? How can you call Him the Savior of the world when the whole world wasn't saved? Incidentally, that title, "Savior of the world" was used by the Roman Emperor. Yet, he was the Savior of the Roman world, not every individual upon the face of the earth.

MAJOR: Not only did God love the world, but in 1 John 2:2 we see that Christ is the "propitiation for the sins of the whole world".

JACK: It does. It doesn't say, "He might be the propitiation..." or "He could be the propitiation..." it says HE IS THE PROPITIATION.... That word means SATISFACTION. If He is the satifaction for every human being who ever lived, than all sin has been satisfied, including the sin of unbelief and all people are saved. To whom did John write this letter? He used a very unusual address, "My little children." That would imply his own cadre of disciples in Ephesus where he was ministered. Christ was their propitiation for sin and not only that small group but people through the whole world. Incidentally, the specific phrase here, "The Whole World" is the identical phrase in Romans 1:8 that I mentioned earlier. Was that phrase talking about every individual on the globe from all ages? Not at all.

MAJOR: THINK NOW>>>>>>>>If God only loved an elect group and not the whole world, how could He be righteous, just and holy???? How could He then in fact judge the whole world? I believe in the sovereignty of God and also Bible election, but I also believe that "whosoever will" is invited to drink of the water of life freely.

JACK: I agree that whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life freely, amen! God has a perfect right to condemn all of humanity to hell for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death. If God decided to send all of us to hell He would be perfectly justified to do so. God's justice requires that no one be saved so if you want God to be "just," He would condemn everyone. While his justice is preserved in the sacrifice of Christ, I much rather God be gracious. The fact that He redeems anyone is a testimony to his grace.

MAJOR: I for one do not believe in hyper-Calvinism and I do not accept limited atonement. John 3:16 teaches that God so loved the WORLD that He gave the most precious Jewel in heaven that WHOEOSEVR IN THE WORLD believes in Jesus Christ, "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life". The love of God spoken of in John 3:16 definitely clears God of injustice and respect of persons in judging the world and He will judge the world by Jesus Christ. (Philippians 2:9-11).

JACK: And no one says you have to believe in Calvinism or accept limited atonement. I spoke against it for years. I certainly believe in those same great verses you mentioned here. Always a pleasure to chat with you.
 
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I get your point, you are clearly missing my point though.

Let me better explain. 1. Raising Lazarus from the dead was a miracle that Jesus did. You are construing scripture by making it a parallel to being dead in trespasses. 2. Jesus did the miracle because Mary asked Him too. 3. Jesus 'loved' Mary, lazarus and Martha John 11:5. Why?? Mary, because she had 'touched' Jesus. Now you assume something completely different about Lazarus? John 11:3. She had shown a desire to repent and turn to Him when SHE showed initiative and washed His feet John 12:3. 4. God shows / gives favour NOT favouritism!! Favour is shown to those that honour Him, as Mary did. Psalm 145:19 God shows favor to those who honor him, listening to their cries for help and saving them .
Jesus did not raise Lazarus from the dead because "Mary asked him to"(as you state above). Jesus knew that Lazarus was sick, and WAITED extra days for him to die. Raising Lazarus from the dead was part of God's plan, not due to a request from a disciple. Go back and read John 11 and you will clearly see this. The point I was making---and will make again----is that before we are born-again we are "dead in trespasses and sins"--we are spiritually dead. We can no more "make ourselves alive" spiritually, than Lazarus could do physically. Dead means dead--whether physically or spirtually----the only one who can RESURRECT us is GOD. God does not grant salvation to us because we have "gained favor" with him! God grants salvation through HIS GRACE alone. No one deserves salvation.

Spiritual re-birth is a GIFT from God----it is not something we decide to obtain.
 
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The Word of God never speaks of the saints as "the world".
I was doing some research to properly comment. But you pretty much nailed it Major.

1. The world is never referred to as ''the world of the elect'', rather as you said world is either wicked or refers to everyone. 2. Not a single bible translation words it as 'world of the elect'. 3. Many have challenged Calvinists to prove from biblical text how Kosmos in John 3:16 = world of the elect and nothing worth discussing to date....as no Greek lexicon, dictionary, or other scholarly language tool will come to their rescue and substantiate their undeniable eisigetical rendering of Kosmos to be world of the elect. 4. The contemporary English version is the only translation that words it a bit differently as.... ''God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son'' 5. The scope of ''whosoever'' must tie up with the scope if the 'world' and it doesn't. 6. Since the same word ''kosmon /s'' is used in John 3:17 on-wards and assuming whosoever = elected world...we then have this....

16 For God so loved the elected world that he gave his one and only Son, that the elected world who believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the elected world to condemn the elected world, but to save the elected world through him. 18 The elected world believes in him is not condemned, but the elected world does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the elected world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Conclusion = Popular Calvinist theology that is completely debunked. Upside down hermeneutics. Not proper textual exegesis.
 
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The point I was making---and will make again----is that before we are born-again we are "dead in trespasses and sins"--we are spiritually dead.
and you are completely dodging my point...again. Jesus WOULD NOT have raised Lazarus IF Lazarus had REJECTED Him! Lazarus loved Jesus as Mary did. That is WHY Mary said to Jesus... John 11:3 So the sisters sent to him, saying, "Lord, he whom you love is ill.". Just as was said of Mary in John 11:5.

You need to read this without your Calvinist sunglasses on. Jesus would not have raised someone who had rejected God's law ;). If it was say ''Hitler'' in his evil state you ''may'' have a stronger case.

You assume Lazarus had no say in being raised from the dead? It is God's nature to force us to do as He pleases? That is the gentle nature of God Gal 5:22,23? :eek:

Spiritual re-birth is a GIFT from God----it is not something we decide to obtain
It is because you and others keep repeating lines like that that you now believe that. Scripture does not teach that. Salvation is a gift from God. Having the ability to accept salvation from free will is a gift from God. God is just my friend. Not unjust. As I asked, HOW do you judge a partial God as just? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

But we must have mercy with each other :love:. Grasping the greatness of God is not easy. You have to realize that your mind literally stops at 'God is sovereign'. You need to grasp (as Peter did in Acts 10:34) that God is ALSO impartial. He is BOTH at the same time.
 
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MAJOR: Some teach and we see that again here, that "God s0 loved THE ELECT out of every tribe and nation"---not all mankind, but a select few. But if THAT be true then John 3:16 should be read as................. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that THE WORLD through Him should be saved". But that is NOT what the word of God actually says now is it??? it says......"WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH".

JACK: Of course, John 3:16 reads as you stated and no one has every said otherwise. The word that John used here is the Greek KOSMOS, not the English WORLD, and there is some distinction between them. Unlike WORLD, KOSMOS can connote a company of people, for example, "the whole earth" wondered after the beast (Rev. 13:3). Did John mean that every individual ran after the beast? Of course not! The same author also wrote, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one...." Notice the contrast between the disciples and the WORLD lying in the lap of the evil one. Did he mean that every single individual on the earth lies in the hand of Satan? Of course not! Sometimes the word means only a small portion of the world. For example, Paul said of the Church at Rome that their faith was "proclaimed throughout the whole world" (Romans 1:8). Did he mean that everyone on the globe heard about the faith of the Church in Rome? Of course not he was speaking of the Christian world. Jesus said, ...the WORLD can not receive Christ" (Jn. 14:17). Did He mean no can be saved? Of course not. Jesus, in his high priestly prayer, excluded "the WORLD" (Jn. 17:9). Yet, He specifically said He prayed for those who would believe in Him. While it is a different Greek word, Luke recorded, "There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that ALL THE WORLD should be counted and taxed..." (Luke 2:1, 3). But he was talking only about the Roman world, not Africa, not Asia, not the entire western hemisphere. Speaking of Noah, Peter, without a doubt, used the word in a restrictive sense, "...flood upon the WORLD of the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:5).

MAJOR: Now, the correct biblical teaching here is the "whosoever out of all the world, from every tribe, tongue, nation and color..."whosoever believeth", .....becomes a child of God! "WHOsoever believeth"........becomes a child of God!.

JACK: Amen! No disagreement there!

MAJOR: It is "straining-stretching-adding" to the Word of God to make the WORLD here to mean the elect only for the world in Scripture refers to the wicked. The Word of God never speaks of the saints as "the world".

JACK: I would respectfully disagree with you there. Romans 1:8, as I mentioned earlier, I see as speaking of the "Christian world." 2 Cor. 5:19, "Reconciling the world unto Himself..." Who was He reconciling unto Him? If this is an instance where the world means all individuals on the globe, then the result would be universal salvation which neither you nor I believe. Same idea with I Tim. 3:16. Jesus is called, "The Savior of the world..." (I Jn. 4:14). Can He rightly be called the Savior of the unsaved? How can you call Him the Savior of the world when the whole world wasn't saved? Incidentally, that title, "Savior of the world" was used by the Roman Emperor. Yet, he was the Savior of the Roman world, not every individual upon the face of the earth.

MAJOR: Not only did God love the world, but in 1 John 2:2 we see that Christ is the "propitiation for the sins of the whole world".

JACK: It does. It doesn't say, "He might be the propitiation..." or "He could be the propitiation..." it says HE IS THE PROPITIATION.... That word means SATISFACTION. If He is the satifaction for every human being who ever lived, than all sin has been satisfied, including the sin of unbelief and all people are saved. To whom did John write this letter? He used a very unusual address, "My little children." That would imply his own cadre of disciples in Ephesus where he was ministered. Christ was their propitiation for sin and not only that small group but people through the whole world. Incidentally, the specific phrase here, "The Whole World" is the identical phrase in Romans 1:8 that I mentioned earlier. Was that phrase talking about every individual on the globe from all ages? Not at all.

MAJOR: THINK NOW>>>>>>>>If God only loved an elect group and not the whole world, how could He be righteous, just and holy???? How could He then in fact judge the whole world? I believe in the sovereignty of God and also Bible election, but I also believe that "whosoever will" is invited to drink of the water of life freely.

JACK: I agree that whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life freely, amen! God has a perfect right to condemn all of humanity to hell for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death. If God decided to send all of us to hell He would be perfectly justified to do so. God's justice requires that no one be saved so if you want God to be "just," He would condemn everyone. While his justice is preserved in the sacrifice of Christ, I much rather God be gracious. The fact that He redeems anyone is a testimony to his grace.

MAJOR: I for one do not believe in hyper-Calvinism and I do not accept limited atonement. John 3:16 teaches that God so loved the WORLD that He gave the most precious Jewel in heaven that WHOEOSEVR IN THE WORLD believes in Jesus Christ, "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life". The love of God spoken of in John 3:16 definitely clears God of injustice and respect of persons in judging the world and He will judge the world by Jesus Christ. (Philippians 2:9-11).

JACK: And no one says you have to believe in Calvinism or accept limited atonement. I spoke against it for years. I certainly believe in those same great verses you mentioned here. Always a pleasure to chat with you.
As it is with you Jack! May the Lord bless you my brother and keep you safe!

My I remind all of you that this is NOT a fundamental to the Christian faith so that we would be in some kind of confrontational spirit.

A fundamental is that Christ died on the cross and as fully man and fully God He and only He paid for the sins of ALL the world.

Another fundamental of the faith is the virgin birth of Christ.

Which way you believe has no difference in the outcome since the end of both positions is salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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1) Do slaves have "free will"? and where is this scripture that says Jesus opened our cell door? He opened Lydia's heart in order that she might be saved. Why no one else's in that group? If He did the same for all, where does it say that?
2) If you are "dead" "blind" and "deaf" how can you walk out of your cell?
3) Which one of these passages says that the Father "draws" all of humanity using the same word? Jesus said in Jn. 6:44 that all whom the Father will draw will come to Him and He will raise them on the last day. Are you saying the Father draws "all" and that wouldn't that mean all are saved?
4) You really think a corpse can walk out of a prison cell? Paul used the word for "corpse" in Eph. 2:1.
5) If man truly has "free will" why do you pray for the salvation of others? What can God do to save a person that He isn't already doing? (I'm assuming you pray for the salvation of others as we Calvinists do.) We present the gospel and pray because God saves, why do you pray?
1. We all have free will as was pointed out with the 'God is impartial' scripture in the other thread and the fallen angel logic by Glomung. Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free.
2. You are only deaf, blind and dead to the things of God when you are choosing to stay in your cell.
3. You disagree with James 4:8?
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
4. Paul is saying we can all be ''''dead''' and made alive. Don't just take that scripture / passage in isolation.
5. Praying for all is a good habit / in our nature. As for necessity, probably not. God is just. Nobody will go to hell without having fully rejected God / being beyond hope. So I agree with your first part. As for why do I pray? Jesus taught us how to pray and that prayer clearly says why.
 
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Well, you say you don't mean offence, so I won't take personal offence. But if you can't internalize what the verse says, I'm sorry, I'm baffled.
The whosoever mentioned is not before the 'world'. For God so loved the world (1), that He sent His son, that whosoever (2) believeth. Thus the whosoever HAS to match the scope of the world and not vice versa. According to my research, Calvinist scholars have for 300 plus years being challenged to deliver sound biblical exegisis but we have only recieved theology driven interpretation.
 
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