U Die Then Go? Where?

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Sorry, but Paul did not say that "the next moment" is when the dead are with God, that is your conclusion, because you are ignoring the third state Paul speaks of: being naked and unclothed. He spoke of this "naked state" between the earthly body and the glorious body where we are without a body (in the grave) - a state which he says we groan with desire to bypass and go to be with God in our glorious body. If we go straight to God at death, then why does Paul say we groan with desire to not be without a body and naked? Why would he, or any Christian, give a care about that if we're immediately in heaven at death? Because Paul knew what Job said - that he would be in the grave where his body would be eaten of worms as he waited for the 7 last plagues of wrath to pass after which Jesus would call upon him to rise with new, glorious flesh and be with Him.

Verse 4 "For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

Verse 6 is simply stating that the Spirit by faith gives us confidence in the promise that one day we'll be with Him, though we are absent from Him now in this earthly body.

Then what is your interpretation of where a Christian believer goes at death. Where does his body and his spirit go?
 
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

EEph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

ph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

What are we waiting for? nothing! It is impossible to be in Christ and not be where he is.

I agree with the above Bible verses.
 
Then what is your interpretation of where a Christian believer goes at death. Where does his body and his spirit go?

Ooops, I just got to and read your comment. OK. I see what you are saying. In all respect I do not agree with you, but I grasp what you said.
 
When a person receives Jesus as their saviour they are immediately transferred into the Kingdom of God, sitting on the right hand of God. When a person physically dies their body goes into the ground but their spirit stays where is has always been in Christ in Heaven. The only thing the Church is waiting for is to get a supernatural body when Jesus returns. We might not be experiencing this Heavenly Kingdom in which we have been translated into, and that is only because we simply do not believe it.

Amen!
 
According to Job, the spirit of a person which was breathed into his body by God so that these two combined components produce the whole which is a living soul (Gen. 2:7), is spoken of by Job as being "in my nostrils", and no where in the Bible is it said to transfer into heaven with Jesus upon one's conversion. Paul's use of phrases like "translated into the kingdom" and "seated in heavenly places" are meant to convey to us the reality that we have gained new citizenship of a kingdom through whose gates we are yet to enter and nothing more if we just stick with the plain words of Scripture.

ph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

Are not these scriptures in your Bible too?
 
ph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

Are not these scriptures in your Bible too?
Yes, they are. If you want your verses to teach that upon conversion our spirit goes to Jesus in heaven, you should know that the wisest man who ever lived disagrees with you. He said that happens at death: "And so the dust shall return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it." Eccl. 12:7. Again, those verses are figurative expressions of how we are now new citizens of a kingdom we've not yet called home.
 
Then what is your interpretation of where a Christian believer goes at death. Where does his body and his spirit go?
Genesis 2:7 says God formed man of the Dust (Body) of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life (Spirit) and man became a Living Soul. The Living Soul can only exist as a combined whole of the two components, Body and Breath of Life. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says at death the reverse takes place: "And so the Dust shall return to the earth as it was and the Spirit shall return to God Who gave it" causing the Living Soul to cease to exist.

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
Light Bulb + Electric Current = Light

Body - Breath of Life = Dead Soul
Light Bulb - Electric Current = Darkness

Go ahead, ask me about the Rich Man and Lazarus LOL :)
 
Are you then proposing "soul sleep"?
Yes. The First Death is really a "sleep" for every dead person from Adam to the last shall awake in either the First or Second Resurrection. The Second Death is just that: a final, irreversible Death from which there will be no resurrection. Paul says in Romans 2:7,8 that we who are not immortal but are seeking for immortality by patient continuance in well doing will receive Eternal Life, while those who refuse to do so are treasuring up wrath against the day of wrath which will result in the Eternal Second Death. Obadiah says that "all the heathen" will "be as though they had not been" and Ezekiel, speaking of the final destruction of Satan (personified as the King of Tyre), says "never shalt thou be (exist) anymore."
 
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Yes, they are. If you want your verses to teach that upon conversion our spirit goes to Jesus in heaven, you should know that the wisest man who ever lived disagrees with you. He said that happens at death: "And so the dust shall return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it." Eccl. 12:7. Again, those verses are figurative expressions of how we are now new citizens of a kingdom we've not yet called home.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Maybe you are still alive, but I am not, neither is any other people who are true born again Christians.
 
2Co 5:6-8 KJV - 6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Alive at home in the body = absent from the Lord
out of the body = present with the Lord

He says, I'd rather be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

What's the miscommunication here? It's a cause and effect thing.
 
2Co 5:6-8 KJV - 6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Alive at home in the body = absent from the Lord
out of the body = present with the Lord

He says, I'd rather be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

What's the miscommunication here? It's a cause and effect thing.

I am with you!
 
Yes. The First Death is really a "sleep" for every dead person from Adam to the last shall awake in either the First or Second Resurrection. The Second Death is just that: a final, irreversible Death from which there will be no resurrection. Paul says in Romans 2:7,8 that we who are not immortal but are seeking for immortality by patient continuance in well doing will receive Eternal Life, while those who refuse to do so are treasuring up wrath against the day of wrath which will result in the Eternal Second Death. Obadiah says that "all the heathen" will "be as though they had not been" and Ezekiel, speaking of the final destruction of Satan (personified as the King of Tyre), says "never shalt thou be (exist) anymore."

I seek no argument with you and I hope we can communicate/debate in Christian love as we have done before.

Having said that I must say that I disagree with you and IMO the Bible disagree with you as well.

The bottom line IMHO is that the concept of “soul sleep” simply is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hades, the torment side waiting on the second resurrection (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14). Now read carefully Luke 16 and it can can be clearly seen in that neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. If there was such a thing as "soul sleep" wouldn't the people in hades be the perfect example to prove such a thought???????

At the resurrection, this body is resurrected and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

I did not post all the Scripture as it tend to make my response longer but they are there for anyone interested to look up for themselves.



Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html#ixzz3Cj9gfeX2
 
Genesis 2:7 says God formed man of the Dust (Body) of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life (Spirit) and man became a Living Soul. The Living Soul can only exist as a combined whole of the two components, Body and Breath of Life. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says at death the reverse takes place: "And so the Dust shall return to the earth as it was and the Spirit shall return to God Who gave it" causing the Living Soul to cease to exist.

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
Light Bulb + Electric Current = Light

Body - Breath of Life = Dead Soul
Light Bulb - Electric Current = Darkness

Go ahead, ask me about the Rich Man and Lazarus LOL :)

I agree, but Gen. 2:7 does not in anyway teach soul sleep IMHO. There in Genesis the SOUL is not a referrance to the concept of body soul/spirit but rather to the fact that man became a "living" being created in the image of God. The same thought is seen in Gen, 3:19.

Certainly the picture painted in Ecclesiastes 12 about how man grows old and faces death is moving and is certainly a great portrait of aging. It is given to cause the young to stop and ponder the direction that they in fact are taking. However.......It can not be used to support soul sleep.

It in fact proves just the opposite. As has been stated, the body dies and goes into the ground BUT the soul/spirit goes to be with God who gave the life to man as you correctly pointed out in Genesis 2.
 
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Maybe you are still alive, but I am not, neither is any other people who are true born again Christians.

Are you a zombie, then? A converted soul is dead to sin and alive to obedience by the power of the indwelling Christ. Too bad Stephen wasn't aware of your doctrine when he said as he died, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." He must've not known it was already up there LOL.
 
I seek no argument with you and I hope we can communicate/debate in Christian love as we have done before.

Having said that I must say that I disagree with you and IMO the Bible disagree with you as well.

The bottom line IMHO is that the concept of “soul sleep” simply is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hades, the torment side waiting on the second resurrection (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14). Now read carefully Luke 16 and it can can be clearly seen in that neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. If there was such a thing as "soul sleep" wouldn't the people in hades be the perfect example to prove such a thought???????

At the resurrection, this body is resurrected and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

I did not post all the Scripture as it tend to make my response longer but they are there for anyone interested to look up for themselves.



Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html#ixzz3Cj9gfeX2
Brother, I love nothing more than a civil debate. You always deliver! I've responded to each point. I'd like to know what you think:
  • Hebrews 9:27 says judgment follows death, but it doesn't say immediately.
  • Paul said "...absent from the body and present with the Lord", not "is to be present with the Lord" which does not demand that the one immediately follow the other. Most people in their impatience to prove what you believe miss the entire premise of the passage! After Paul speaks of the state of nakedness without a body (as we lie dead in the grave), he says we groan in this earthly body with earnest desire to discard it, skip the nakedness of the grave, and appear with our new heavenly body with Jesus. Paul knew that didn't happen until the Lord Jesus descends with the sound of the trumpet: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality."
  • Yes, everlasting punishment, not punishing. But, what is the punishment? It's death! Eternal death from which there well be no resurrection. If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then the only way Jesus could take our place and suffer the penalty of sin for us is if He be eternally tormented. He did not suffer that, He suffered death.
  • Sinners do not receive and immortal body. Only those who "by patient continuance in well doing seek for...immortality (will receive) eternal life." "If any man hateth his brother he is a murderer. And ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."
  • The wicked shall be cast in the Lake of Fire which shall "burn them up and shall leave them neither root nor branch", a Hebrew proverbial expression in Malachi for "complete and total destruction." How can this be understood to mean "maintaining and everlasting, but wretched, existence"?
  • Obadiah says, "They shall be as though they had not been" which in no way means "be for all eternity in torment".
  • Ezekiel says of Satan, "Never shalt thou be anymore" which does not mean "ye shall be for all eternity in torment".
And lastly:
  • The passage of Luke 16 is so filled with symbolism and elements that contradict the Bible that it cannot be a real story, but a parable in which things happen that cannot or do not happen in real experience. One example is the fact that the Rich Man and Lazarus have bodies with tongues, eyes, and fingers, but the Bible says that the dead do not receive bodies until the resurrection when Jesus comes. The context in the parable shows that Jesus hadn't returned yet.
 
I agree, but Gen. 2:7 does not in anyway teach soul sleep IMHO. There in Genesis the SOUL is not a referrance to the concept of body soul/spirit but rather to the fact that man became a "living" being created in the image of God. The same thought is seen in Gen, 3:19.

Certainly the picture painted in Ecclesiastes 12 about how man grows old and faces death is moving and is certainly a great portrait of aging. It is given to cause the young to stop and ponder the direction that they in fact are taking. However.......It can not be used to support soul sleep.

It in fact proves just the opposite. As has been stated, the body dies and goes into the ground BUT the soul/spirit goes to be with God who gave the life to man as you correctly pointed out in Genesis 2.
Brother, there's not such thing as a "soul/spirit". These are two different things: Jesus cried for His Father to receive His spirit, which went up, but His soul was not left in Hades, which is down. Also, "the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, of the joints and marrow."
 
I think the context of luke 16 is to emphasise how you got short term luxury money and wealth but it cost you long term, and there is a chasm that is unpassable, and if people don't believe moses they won't believe because someone dead knocks on their door. And also Jesus is talking to those who existed under the law and its provisions for salvation, Jesus replaced those.
er...I think...
to me a soul is the outcome of the impregnation of the flesh with blank spirit producing an imprinted spirit.
 
Brother, there's not such thing as a "soul/spirit". These are two different things: Jesus cried for His Father to receive His spirit, which went up, but His soul was not left in Hades, which is down. Also, "the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, of the joints and marrow."

I realize that 777. I said it to show the separation of the 3, body, soul & spirit. Only the body stays in the grave until resurrection. Somehow I think you knew that.
 
Are you a zombie, then? A converted soul is dead to sin and alive to obedience by the power of the indwelling Christ. Too bad Stephen wasn't aware of your doctrine when he said as he died, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." He must've not known it was already up there LOL.

Wow, I guess the Apostle Paul was simply lying when he said "we are sitting in Heavenly places in Christ"!!!

ph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
 
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