U Die Then Go? Where?

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Brother, I love nothing more than a civil debate. You always deliver! I've responded to each point. I'd like to know what you think:
  • Hebrews 9:27 says judgment follows death, but it doesn't say immediately.
  • Paul said "...absent from the body and present with the Lord", not "is to be present with the Lord" which does not demand that the one immediately follow the other. Most people in their impatience to prove what you believe miss the entire premise of the passage! After Paul speaks of the state of nakedness without a body (as we lie dead in the grave), he says we groan in this earthly body with earnest desire to discard it, skip the nakedness of the grave, and appear with our new heavenly body with Jesus. Paul knew that didn't happen until the Lord Jesus descends with the sound of the trumpet: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality."
  • Yes, everlasting punishment, not punishing. But, what is the punishment? It's death! Eternal death from which there well be no resurrection. If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then the only way Jesus could take our place and suffer the penalty of sin for us is if He be eternally tormented. He did not suffer that, He suffered death.
  • Sinners do not receive and immortal body. Only those who "by patient continuance in well doing seek for...immortality (will receive) eternal life." "If any man hateth his brother he is a murderer. And ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."
  • The wicked shall be cast in the Lake of Fire which shall "burn them up and shall leave them neither root nor branch", a Hebrew proverbial expression in Malachi for "complete and total destruction." How can this be understood to mean "maintaining and everlasting, but wretched, existence"?
  • Obadiah says, "They shall be as though they had not been" which in no way means "be for all eternity in torment".
  • Ezekiel says of Satan, "Never shalt thou be anymore" which does not mean "ye shall be for all eternity in torment".
And lastly:
  • The passage of Luke 16 is so filled with symbolism and elements that contradict the Bible that it cannot be a real story, but a parable in which things happen that cannot or do not happen in real experience. One example is the fact that the Rich Man and Lazarus have bodies with tongues, eyes, and fingers, but the Bible says that the dead do not receive bodies until the resurrection when Jesus comes. The context in the parable shows that Jesus hadn't returned yet.

Phew. Lots of points to consider. It would have been much better to do them one at a time but whatever. I will place a number on your comments so that I can respond and remember. You will be old like me one day and understand what I am saying.

1. Hebrews 9:27........."says judgment follows death, but it doesn't say immediately".
The relation of this verse to its context is often dismissed in order to stress the certainty of future judgment and it seems that is what you have done as well. It is axiomatic that man dies once, but there are exception aren't there. Enoch & Elijah and what about Lazarus. So then this is a comparative Scripture. As it is with man so is it with Christ. He could only die ONCE for man as mans sacrifice. Beyound that there is nothing for any man except the judgment which is just as certain as death. It is NOT about length of time between death and judgment, only that it is a sure thing.
Remember my brother, it is appointed unto men to die once, but some of us are not going to die at all. The Rapture will remove the dead in Christ first, THEN those who remain that are ALIVE".

2. "Paul said "...absent from the body and present with the Lord", not "is to be present with the Lord" which does not demand that the one immediately follow the other."

You are quoting 2 Corth. 5:8...(ESV)
"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

I am aware of the many web sites and the teaching that you are drawing your understanding from. However.........
Paul states that he is confident in his eternal destiny and longs for the day when he can be “absent from the body” and be present with the Lord he loves and serves. To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.

In the same way, Christians are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the presence of God. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. When a born-again believer dies, his soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord. There, the soul consciously awaits the resurrection of the body. To the church at Philippi Paul wrote from a Roman prison:


PPhilippians 1:21-24.....
“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you”.

3. "Yes, everlasting punishment, not punishing."
I understand your comment and we must always consider apples to apples and not what we want to see take place. When we consider the Word of God literally as it is written to me as they are we see this:

Luke 16:24-25......
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish".

Rev 20:9-10.........
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

4.
Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment eternally, and that their condition cannot be remedied.




 
I realize that 777. I said it to show the separation of the 3, body, soul & spirit. Only the body stays in the grave until resurrection. Somehow I think you knew that.

The way I see it, a living soul doesn't come into existence until God prepares a body and then breathes the breath of life into it (Gen. 2:7). Therefore, when at death the body returns to the earth and God's spirit returns to Him, the soul goes out of existence. That's why Solomon says a deceased person's memory, emotions, knowledge/wisdom, desires, and plans for the future all perish (Eccl. 9:10).

Nowhere in the Bible do we ever find the word "immortal" associated with the living soul. To the contrary, James says that conversion will "save a soul from death" and God says through Ezekiel that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Paul says that we "seek for immortality" which means we do not possess it and says Jesus "alone hath immortality". The teaching of immortal soul comes from paganism and was dragged into Christianity by the Roman Catholic church.
 
Phew. Lots of points to consider. It would have been much better to do them one at a time but whatever. I will place a number on your comments so that I can respond and remember. You will be old like me one day and understand what I am saying.

1. ........."says judgment follows death, but it doesn't say immediately".
The relation of this verse to its context is often dismissed in order to stress the certainty of future judgment and it seems that is what you have done as well. It is axiomatic that man dies once, but there are exception aren't there. Enoch & Elijah and what about Lazarus. So then this is a comparative Scripture. As it is with man so is it with Christ. He could only die ONCE for man as mans sacrifice. Beyound that there is nothing for any man except the judgment which is just as certain as death. It is NOT about length of time between death and judgment, only that it is a sure thing.
Remember my brother, it is appointed unto men to die once, but some of us are not going to die at all. The Rapture will remove the dead in Christ first, THEN those who remain that are ALIVE".

2. "Paul said "...absent from the body and present with the Lord", not "is to be present with the Lord" which does not demand that the one immediately follow the other."

You are quoting 2 Corth. 5:8...(ESV)
"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

I am aware of the many web sites and the teaching that you are drawing your understanding from. However.........
Paul states that he is confident in his eternal destiny and longs for the day when he can be “absent from the body” and be present with the Lord he loves and serves. To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.

In the same way, Christians are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the presence of God. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. When a born-again believer dies, his soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord. There, the soul consciously awaits the resurrection of the body. To the church at Philippi Paul wrote from a Roman prison:


PP....
“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you”.

3. "Yes, everlasting punishment, not punishing."
I understand your comment and we must always consider apples to apples and not what we want to see take place. When we consider the Word of God literally as it is written to me as they are we see this:

......
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish".

.........
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

4.
Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment eternally, and that their condition cannot be remedied.
As a former "consciousness in death" guy, I understand your perspective and the verses you post. When I took a step back and took a hard look at the issue, I was amazed to see how much subjectivity was employed and how much other verses were ignored in order to establish the doctrine. I had to unlearn much of what people told me was Scripture when it was really imposed subjectivity.

  • The Breath of Life, or Spirit, is not the Soul. The Soul is the "I", the "Ego", the "Self", not the Spirit. The Spirit is simply the "life giving principle" that animates man and beast. Solomon, when speaking of the life cycle of man and beast, says "they all have one breath."
  • The Bible simply never makes a distinction between the righteous, the wicked, or beasts when speaking of the Spirit returning to God at the death of each and any such distinction is purely subjective.
  • The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable as evidenced by both its use of symbolism and elements which clearly contradict the Bible, and therefore cannot be used to substantiate a doctrine.
  • Paul fully admits that he would not "be present with the Lord in his heavenly body" until the resurrection (1 Cor. 15).
  • "Forever" is from the Gr. "aionios" which means "DURATION - either undefined but not endless or undefined because endless." The word generally means "eternal" when associated with God or His law, and "temporal" when associated with man, so yes, the wicked will be tormented day and night for a duration "undefined but NOT endless."
If you're still not convinced, that's OK, but I want you to see that there is a rock solid case for unconsciousness in death, and IMHO, enough evidence to overthrow popular consensus.
 
Wow, I guess the Apostle Paul was simply lying when he said "we are sitting in Heavenly places in Christ"!!!

ph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Why are you just sitting there? Go pick from the Tree of Life or take a swim in the River of Life or fly around on wings of eagles! LOL (Paul is using SYMBOLISM to tell us that we are now citizens of a kingdom we've not yet made our domicile, not teaching some nebulous doctrine that our "spirit" is now up there.)
 
Why are you just sitting there? Go pick from the Tree of Life or take a swim in the River of Life or fly around on wings of eagles! LOL (Paul is using SYMBOLISM to tell us that we are now citizens of a kingdom we've not yet made our domicile, not teaching some nebulous doctrine that our "spirit" is now up there.)
You dont have to try and convince me, its to late for that. Take your complaint to God and see what his reaction will be. Of course you will have wait to get your answer, and It might not be what you think.
 
As a former "consciousness in death" guy, I understand your perspective and the verses you post. When I took a step back and took a hard look at the issue, I was amazed to see how much subjectivity was employed and how much other verses were ignored in order to establish the doctrine. I had to unlearn much of what people told me was Scripture when it was really imposed subjectivity.

  • The Breath of Life, or Spirit, is not the Soul. The Soul is the "I", the "Ego", the "Self", not the Spirit. The Spirit is simply the "life giving principle" that animates man and beast. Solomon, when speaking of the life cycle of man and beast, says "they all have one breath."
  • The Bible simply never makes a distinction between the righteous, the wicked, or beasts when speaking of the Spirit returning to God at the death of each and any such distinction is purely subjective.
  • The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable as evidenced by both its use of symbolism and elements which clearly contradict the Bible, and therefore cannot be used to substantiate a doctrine.
  • Paul fully admits that he would not "be present with the Lord in his heavenly body" until the resurrection (1 Cor. 15).
  • "Forever" is from the Gr. "aionios" which means "DURATION - either undefined but not endless or undefined because endless." The word generally means "eternal" when associated with God or His law, and "temporal" when associated with man, so yes, the wicked will be tormented day and night for a duration "undefined but NOT endless."
If you're still not convinced, that's OK, but I want you to see that there is a rock solid case for unconsciousness in death, and IMHO, enough evidence to overthrow popular consensus.

Nope. There is no convincing to be done. You have your opinion and understanding and I have mine. You asked several question and I answered them and now you have followed up on them. If I responded it would only be a repeat of what I already said. We do not agree and we are still able to be friends. That is always good and I appreciate your thoughts.
 
The way I see it, a living soul doesn't come into existence until God prepares a body and then breathes the breath of life into it (Gen. 2:7). Therefore, when at death the body returns to the earth and God's spirit returns to Him, the soul goes out of existence. That's why Solomon says a deceased person's memory, emotions, knowledge/wisdom, desires, and plans for the future all perish (Eccl. 9:10).

Nowhere in the Bible do we ever find the word "immortal" associated with the living soul. To the contrary, James says that conversion will "save a soul from death" and God says through Ezekiel that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Paul says that we "seek for immortality" which means we do not possess it and says Jesus "alone hath immortality". The teaching of immortal soul comes from paganism and was dragged into Christianity by the Roman Catholic church.

IMO as a friend, it seems to me that you blame the Catholic Church way to much for Bible things you disagree with. Now don't take offence at that and NO I am not a Catholic believer. I only make that comment because of observation. Have you considered that maybe, just maybe that YOU are wrong on some of these issues that you comment on. Has occurred to you that Is it possible that some of us just may be right? I say that in Christian love and not to spur you to anger.

As an example, you have just said ...............
"Paul says that we "seek for immortality" which means we do not possess it and says Jesus "alone hath immortality". The teaching of immortal soul comes from paganism and was dragged into Christianity by the Roman Catholic church."

Is that Biblically true or is it your opinion ???? I for one do not agree with your opinion. I still love you and respect you but I can not agree with your comment.

Without a doubt, IMO the Bible teaches us that the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments. IT would take up way to much space here to list them all but here are some and they can be looked up and read...................
Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19.

Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Jesus Himself said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).

With the same Greek word used to refer to both “punishment” and “life,” it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.

The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether they are saved or lost, will exist eternally, in either heaven or hell. True life or spiritual life does not cease when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven if we are saved, or in punishment in hell if we reject God’s gift of salvation. In fact, the promise of the Bible is that not only will our souls live forever, but also that our bodies will be resurrected. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12-19).

While all souls are immortal, it is important to remember that we are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only truly eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. God has always existed and will always continue to exist. All other sentient creatures, whether they are human or angelic, are finite in that they had a beginning. While our souls will live forever once we come into being, the Bible does not support the concept that our souls have always existed. Our souls are immortal, as that is how God created them, but they did have a beginning; there was a time they did not exist.( http://www.gotquestions.org/human-soul-mortal-immortal.html#ixzz3CuqgDsBe).
 
You dont have to try and convince me, its to late for that. Take your complaint to God and see what his reaction will be. Of course you will have wait to get your answer, and It might not be what you think.
God said that if Adam and Eve disobeyed they would die, period.

Satan said they wouldn't "surely" die, meaning they would die but not "surely" in that they would continue to live though they were dead. Who you gonna believe?

When "the spirits of devils working miracles which go forth to deceive the nations" begin appearing to people as dearly departed loved ones, those who reject the truth of the Bible will most assuredly swallow hook, line, and sinker the deceptive lies that these devilish impersonators bring with them.
 
Nope. There is no convincing to be done. You have your opinion and understanding and I have mine. You asked several question and I answered them and now you have followed up on them. If I responded it would only be a repeat of what I already said. We do not agree and we are still able to be friends. That is always good and I appreciate your thoughts.
Amen, I'm sure the Holy Spirit will lead either you or me out of error.
 
IMO as a friend, it seems to me that you blame the Catholic Church way to much for Bible things you disagree with. Now don't take offence at that and NO I am not a Catholic believer. I only make that comment because of observation. Have you considered that maybe, just maybe that YOU are wrong on some of these issues that you comment on. Has occurred to you that Is it possible that some of us just may be right? I say that in Christian love and not to spur you to anger.

As an example, you have just said ...............
"Paul says that we "seek for immortality" which means we do not possess it and says Jesus "alone hath immortality". The teaching of immortal soul comes from paganism and was dragged into Christianity by the Roman Catholic church."

Is that Biblically true or is it your opinion ???? I for one do not agree with your opinion. I still love you and respect you but I can not agree with your comment.

Without a doubt, IMO the Bible teaches us that the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments. IT would take up way to much space here to list them all but here are some and they can be looked up and read...................
Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19.

Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Jesus Himself said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).

With the same Greek word used to refer to both “punishment” and “life,” it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.

The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether they are saved or lost, will exist eternally, in either heaven or hell. True life or spiritual life does not cease when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven if we are saved, or in punishment in hell if we reject God’s gift of salvation. In fact, the promise of the Bible is that not only will our souls live forever, but also that our bodies will be resurrected. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12-19).

While all souls are immortal, it is important to remember that we are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only truly eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. God has always existed and will always continue to exist. All other sentient creatures, whether they are human or angelic, are finite in that they had a beginning. While our souls will live forever once we come into being, the Bible does not support the concept that our souls have always existed. Our souls are immortal, as that is how God created them, but they did have a beginning; there was a time they did not exist.( http://www.gotquestions.org/human-soul-mortal-immortal.html#ixzz3CuqgDsBe).
Though I love Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Brahmans, etc, of course I'm critical of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, as were the Reformers who also believed that the Papacy was the Antichrist of Bible prophecy. Every single doctrine they teach is not Biblical and it astounds me that though this is the case, Protestants reckon Jesuit Futurism to have somehow sprung forth from them as God inspired while completely ignoring the reason for its creation: to overthrow Protestantism and their Historicist doctrines.

The verses you listed are evidence for my position. Now, here's one in Obadiah 16 that simply cannot be confused: "(The wicked) shall be as though they had not been."

Ezekiel says of Satan, "Never shalt thou be anymore."

Isaiah says of the wicked, "Yet a little while and the wicked shall not be...and (his place) shall not be"

I think God is trying to tell us something :)
 
Though I love Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Brahmans, etc, of course I'm critical of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, as were the Reformers who also believed that the Papacy was the Antichrist of Bible prophecy. Every single doctrine they teach is not Biblical and it astounds me that though this is the case, Protestants reckon Jesuit Futurism to have somehow sprung forth from them as God inspired while completely ignoring the reason for its creation: to overthrow Protestantism and their Historicist doctrines.

The verses you listed are evidence for my position. Now, here's one in Obadiah 16 that simply cannot be confused: "(The wicked) shall be as though they had not been."

Ezekiel says of Satan, "Never shalt thou be anymore."

Isaiah says of the wicked, "Yet a little while and the wicked shall not be...and (his place) shall not be"

I think God is trying to tell us something :)

My dear wonderful brother in Christ. Do you not see that you are taking verses out of context and applying them to your way of thinking. It just will not work. It may sound good at the beginning but I promise you that it will fall apart when the context of those words are broken down and the meaning thereof made clear.

As is the case with Obadiah 16 that you posted. Obadiah is broken into 4 phases and verse 15-21 are concening the "Realization of hisProphecy of Edom's Destruction". Verse 16 has the context of relating to the pagan nations who will be judged "IN the Day of the Lord".

The phrase denotes the fullness of their punishment, and their utter and entire ruin and destruction, which the next clause confirms: and they shall be as though they had not been; as now are the Philistines, Moabites, Ammonites, and so the Edomites; their names are not heard of in the world, only as they are read in the Bible; and thus it shall be with mystical Babylon or Edom, it shall be thrown down, and found no more.

I just can not agree with your thinking of the eternal soul and this verse does nothing to support your opinion...IMHO.
 
God said that if Adam and Eve disobeyed they would die, period.

Satan said they wouldn't "surely" die, meaning they would die but not "surely" in that they would continue to live though they were dead. Who you gonna believe?

When "the spirits of devils working miracles which go forth to deceive the nations" begin appearing to people as dearly departed loved ones, those who reject the truth of the Bible will most assuredly swallow hook, line, and sinker the deceptive lies that these devilish impersonators bring with them.
You and I have already gone over this before. It is useless to keep going over the same thing with you, as I already know what you believe.
 
2 Corinthians 5:8 - Endēmeō pros (to be present with) which is in all Greek manuscripts (even the Critical Text heavily edited disagreeing versions such as Sin and Vat) include this phrase…sadly the ESV removes it to get their interpretation (an action assumed by many using the Westcott/Hort as a basis as if they may do this where it suits their purpose)…the passage therefore says literally to be absent from the body IS TO BE PRESENT WITH…sorry…but that is just the truth….
 
2 Corinthians 5:8 - Endēmeō pros (to be present with) which is in all Greek manuscripts (even the Critical Text heavily edited disagreeing versions such as Sin and Vat) include this phrase…sadly the ESV removes it to get their interpretation (an action assumed by many using the Westcott/Hort as a basis as if they may do this where it suits their purpose)…the passage therefore says literally to be absent from the body IS TO BE PRESENT WITH…sorry…but that is just the truth….

what then is the rapture supposed to achieve?
 
You and I have already gone over this before. It is useless to keep going over the same thing with you, as I already know what you believe.
Ok, but I encourage you to believe God when He says "YE SHALL DIE" though Satan says "ye shall not surely die".
 
2 Corinthians 5:8 - Endēmeō pros (to be present with) which is in all Greek manuscripts (even the Critical Text heavily edited disagreeing versions such as Sin and Vat) include this phrase…sadly the ESV removes it to get their interpretation (an action assumed by many using the Westcott/Hort as a basis as if they may do this where it suits their purpose)…the passage therefore says literally to be absent from the body IS TO BE PRESENT WITH…sorry…but that is just the truth….

Paul talks about 3 conditions:
  1. clothed on earth with mortal body
  2. the wretched state of being naked, without a body which he groaned within himself to skip
  3. clothed upon "that mortality might be swallowed up of life" in his heavenly body
Please answer this if you can:

If it's true that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", why does Paul lament the thought of losing his earthly, mortal body and being naked without a body? - take pains to tell us of how much he desires not to be naked and without a body? - and groan within himself with desire to skip being naked without a body and be in the presence of Jesus?
Clearly, if Paul thought that he'd be with Jesus at death, why would he give a flip about being naked without a body?





The answer is simple: Paul knew that he would not be the presence of God at death and he would lie unconsciously dead in the grave, his body worm eaten, waiting on the "blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" when he would finally then be furnished with his heavenly body with which he would finally appear in the presence of Jesus. That's why the idea of being naked without a body revolted him. Oh, to see the forest through the trees. :) :)
 
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Ok, but I encourage you to believe God when He says "YE SHALL DIE" though Satan says "ye shall not surely die".
my view is
Satan is a liar, he distorts the truth, when he says you will not die he may be talking immediate death, and hiding the full facts.
God placed the tree of life in the garden meaning they had only to eat of it to live forever,
so they were terminal once they ate of the tree of knowledge.
It may be that eating the tree did not produce an actual chemical reaction resulting in any type of death,
but when God found out He cursed man to return to dust, so God fulfilled His own word of you shall die.
gen 3: 3 eve says: but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”
so even though God said it, it may not have been from a physical reaction of eating the fruit but God's judgement reaction.
 
my view is
Satan is a liar, he distorts the truth, when he says you will not die he may be talking immediate death, and hiding the full facts.
God placed the tree of life in the garden meaning they had only to eat of it to live forever,
so they were terminal once they ate of the tree of knowledge.
It may be that eating the tree did not produce an actual chemical reaction resulting in any type of death,
but when God found out He cursed man to return to dust, so God fulfilled His own word of you shall die.
gen 3: 3 eve says: but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”
so even though God said it, it may not have been from a physical reaction of eating the fruit but God's judgement reaction.
I think the eating of the Tree of Life will be the means by which God furnishes us perpetual immortality, after all the deprivation of it caused the eventual death of Adam and Eve, but that's just MOHO.

Actually, Satan said "ye shall not surely die". The implication is, "Oh, yeah, you're gonna die Adam, but not surely. You're body's gonna drop off but you'll achieve a higher plane of existence and you'll be like God knowing good and evil, and powerful, etc."
It's curious that every heathen religion in the world is based on the two lies of Satan: Ye won't really die and you'll be like God. No matter where you go, they are all based on the immortality of the soul and the ability to achieve divinity through human will. You can draw a line, bro.
 
I don't agree, I think death is swallowed up forever and there is no longer any need for a tree of life.
My reasoning is based on Rev. 22:14 "blessed are they that do His commandments (translated from the Received Text) that they might have a right to the Tree of Life and may enter in the gates to the city" to eat of the tree which leaves are "for the healing of the nations", as well. Just seems to me that the very name of the tree and the cover charge (surrender of our will to the will of the indwelling obedient Jesus) makes it remain significant. I'm not saying it is so, but it could be that the right to eat of the Tree of Life is how God brings about the swallowing up of death in victory. Just MOHO.
 
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