Brother, I love nothing more than a civil debate. You always deliver! I've responded to each point. I'd like to know what you think:
And lastly:
- Hebrews 9:27 says judgment follows death, but it doesn't say immediately.
- Paul said "...absent from the body and present with the Lord", not "is to be present with the Lord" which does not demand that the one immediately follow the other. Most people in their impatience to prove what you believe miss the entire premise of the passage! After Paul speaks of the state of nakedness without a body (as we lie dead in the grave), he says we groan in this earthly body with earnest desire to discard it, skip the nakedness of the grave, and appear with our new heavenly body with Jesus. Paul knew that didn't happen until the Lord Jesus descends with the sound of the trumpet: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality."
- Yes, everlasting punishment, not punishing. But, what is the punishment? It's death! Eternal death from which there well be no resurrection. If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then the only way Jesus could take our place and suffer the penalty of sin for us is if He be eternally tormented. He did not suffer that, He suffered death.
- Sinners do not receive and immortal body. Only those who "by patient continuance in well doing seek for...immortality (will receive) eternal life." "If any man hateth his brother he is a murderer. And ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."
- The wicked shall be cast in the Lake of Fire which shall "burn them up and shall leave them neither root nor branch", a Hebrew proverbial expression in Malachi for "complete and total destruction." How can this be understood to mean "maintaining and everlasting, but wretched, existence"?
- Obadiah says, "They shall be as though they had not been" which in no way means "be for all eternity in torment".
- Ezekiel says of Satan, "Never shalt thou be anymore" which does not mean "ye shall be for all eternity in torment".
- The passage of Luke 16 is so filled with symbolism and elements that contradict the Bible that it cannot be a real story, but a parable in which things happen that cannot or do not happen in real experience. One example is the fact that the Rich Man and Lazarus have bodies with tongues, eyes, and fingers, but the Bible says that the dead do not receive bodies until the resurrection when Jesus comes. The context in the parable shows that Jesus hadn't returned yet.
Phew. Lots of points to consider. It would have been much better to do them one at a time but whatever. I will place a number on your comments so that I can respond and remember. You will be old like me one day and understand what I am saying.
1. Hebrews 9:27........."says judgment follows death, but it doesn't say immediately".
The relation of this verse to its context is often dismissed in order to stress the certainty of future judgment and it seems that is what you have done as well. It is axiomatic that man dies once, but there are exception aren't there. Enoch & Elijah and what about Lazarus. So then this is a comparative Scripture. As it is with man so is it with Christ. He could only die ONCE for man as mans sacrifice. Beyound that there is nothing for any man except the judgment which is just as certain as death. It is NOT about length of time between death and judgment, only that it is a sure thing.
Remember my brother, it is appointed unto men to die once, but some of us are not going to die at all. The Rapture will remove the dead in Christ first, THEN those who remain that are ALIVE".
2. "Paul said "...absent from the body and present with the Lord", not "is to be present with the Lord" which does not demand that the one immediately follow the other."
You are quoting 2 Corth. 5:8...(ESV)
"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
I am aware of the many web sites and the teaching that you are drawing your understanding from. However.........
Paul states that he is confident in his eternal destiny and longs for the day when he can be “absent from the body” and be present with the Lord he loves and serves. To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.
In the same way, Christians are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the presence of God. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. When a born-again believer dies, his soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord. There, the soul consciously awaits the resurrection of the body. To the church at Philippi Paul wrote from a Roman prison:
PPhilippians 1:21-24.....
“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you”.
3. "Yes, everlasting punishment, not punishing."
I understand your comment and we must always consider apples to apples and not what we want to see take place. When we consider the Word of God literally as it is written to me as they are we see this:
Luke 16:24-25......
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish".
Rev 20:9-10.........
9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
4.
Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment eternally, and that their condition cannot be remedied.