Unified Belief

Major said:
That's a good question. I don't, but it's highly suggested from the context that he wasn't.



You'll need to infer the meaning from the context since it's not spelled out directly. We don't know the criminal's crime. It could be anything, but since the criminal says, "we are receiving the due reward for our deeds", we can assume his crime was serious. This is why I don't think he was a follower of Jesus and thus not baptized. Also, Jesus says, "today you will be with me in paradise", which means the criminal has been absolved of his sins.


That's true and perhaps this is a one-off incident, but keep in mind that hundreds if not thousands of Jesus' followers are watching this. Surely at least some of them will infer the same thing I have. Jesus would have known this and if his words could be so easily misconstrued, I doubt he would have uttered them. Perhaps Luke got it wrong? In that case we're saying the Bible is fallible.

You're free to think anything you like from this. I won't argue the point any further but I do ask you give it consideration.
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LearningToLetGo said:
That's a good question. I don't, but it's highly suggested from the context that he wasn't.



You'll need to infer the meaning from the context since it's not spelled out directly. We don't know the criminal's crime. It could be anything, but since the criminal says, "we are receiving the due reward for our deeds", we can assume his crime was serious. This is why I don't think he was a follower of Jesus and thus not baptized. Also, Jesus says, "today you will be with me in paradise", which means the criminal has been absolved of his sins.


That's true and perhaps this is a one-off incident, but keep in mind that hundreds if not thousands of Jesus' followers are watching this. Surely at least some of them will infer the same thing I have. Jesus would have known this and if his words could be so easily misconstrued, I doubt he would have uttered them. Perhaps Luke got it wrong? In that case we're saying the Bible is fallible.

You're free to think anything you like from this. I won't argue the point any further but I do ask you give it consideration.
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Major said:
Second, they violate the fundamental principle of Bible interpretation that states when Scripture is silent, we must be silent. That is, when there is no biblical support for a statement, then we are wise if we do not claim that something happened. Why? Because Only Scripture is the absolute authority, not our guesses or wishes. Therefore, since there is no biblical support that the thief on the cross was baptized, those who would teach that he was baptized should be silent and correct their false teaching OR accept the logical common sense understanding that he died on the cross without being baptized but went to heaven because water baptism is not an essential to salvation.


Those who appeal to Mark 16:16 as proof that the thief on the cross had to be baptized have missed two important points.
#1. They cannot prove the thief was ever baptized. It does not exist. Mark 16:16 does not prove their claim.

#2. They purposely distort the last part of Mark 16:16 which says anyone who does not believe is condemned. That is, they are going to hell. Here is the verse,
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16:16).

Now, why is the last part of the verse important?

Notice that if baptism is required for salvation, then the last part of the verse should say. . .
"he who has disbelieved or has not been baptized shall be condemned.”

That is, the verse only says people are condemned if they do not believe. It never says the absence of baptism condemns anyone. Faith and only faith saves an individual. Baptism is simply a symbolic act of an inward change of heart and transformation brought by the Holy Spirit.

I say this to you but I am actually speaking beyond you to those who read what we post and do not know the correct, fundamentls of Bible truth.
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LearningToLetGo said:
That's a good question. I don't, but it's highly suggested from the context that he wasn't.



You'll need to infer the meaning from the context since it's not spelled out directly. We don't know the criminal's crime. It could be anything, but since the criminal says, "we are receiving the due reward for our deeds", we can assume his crime was serious. This is why I don't think he was a follower of Jesus and thus not baptized. Also, Jesus says, "today you will be with me in paradise", which means the criminal has been absolved of his sins.


That's true and perhaps this is a one-off incident, but keep in mind that hundreds if not thousands of Jesus' followers are watching this. Surely at least some of them will infer the same thing I have. Jesus would have known this and if his words could be so easily misconstrued, I doubt he would have uttered them. Perhaps Luke got it wrong? In that case we're saying the Bible is fallible.

You're free to think anything you like from this. I won't argue the point any further but I do ask you give it consideration.
Click to expand...

LearningToLetGo said:
That's a good question. I don't, but it's highly suggested from the context that he wasn't.



You'll need to infer the meaning from the context since it's not spelled out directly. We don't know the criminal's crime. It could be anything, but since the criminal says, "we are receiving the due reward for our deeds", we can assume his crime was serious. This is why I don't think he was a follower of Jesus and thus not baptized. Also, Jesus says, "today you will be with me in paradise", which means the criminal has been absolved of his sins.


That's true and perhaps this is a one-off incident, but keep in mind that hundreds if not thousands of Jesus' followers are watching this. Surely at least some of them will infer the same thing I have. Jesus would have known this and if his words could be so easily misconstrued, I doubt he would have uttered them. Perhaps Luke got it wrong? In that case we're saying the Bible is fallible.

You're free to think anything you like from this. I won't argue the point any further but I do ask you give it consideration.
Click to expand...

LearningToLetGo said:
That's a good question. I don't, but it's highly suggested from the context that he wasn't.



You'll need to infer the meaning from the context since it's not spelled out directly. We don't know the criminal's crime. It could be anything, but since the criminal says, "we are receiving the due reward for our deeds", we can assume his crime was serious. This is why I don't think he was a follower of Jesus and thus not baptized. Also, Jesus says, "today you will be with me in paradise", which means the criminal has been absolved of his sins.


That's true and perhaps this is a one-off incident, but keep in mind that hundreds if not thousands of Jesus' followers are watching this. Surely at least some of them will infer the same thing I have. Jesus would have known this and if his words could be so easily misconstrued, I doubt he would have uttered them. Perhaps Luke got it wrong? In that case we're saying the Bible is fallible.

You're free to think anything you like from this. I won't argue the point any further but I do ask you give it consideration.
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Learningtoletgo,
I did ... but, it doesn't fit.
It is dangerous to accept inference to establish fact...and certainly not..... in relation to..... God's word.
Measure inferences vs......."Repent and be baptized......"{et al}. That establishes fact.
 
gpresdo said:
Learningtoletgo,
I did ... but, it doesn't fit.
It is dangerous to accept inference to establish fact...and certainly not..... in relation to..... God's word.
Measure inferences vs......."Repent and be baptized......"{et al}. That establishes fact.
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In all due respect brother gpresdo, where do YOU think that mans "common sense" comes to play????

By that I mean......do YOU actually believe that the Roman guards took a man down from the cross and took him to a place where he could be baptized in water and then place him back onto that same cross to die just because he said he accepted another man as the Christ!!! Actually, that is exactly what you are saying. Now.......does that in any way make any sense to you?????

If so.....please take the time to elaborate for us how that works!

Now, allow me to ask you another question. In 1 Corth. 1:17 the Apostle Paul said that he did not view baptism as necessary for salvation. He made it clear to the church in Corinth that he came to preach Christ, not baptize people in water.
This is quite an odd statement to make if baptism were necessary for salvation. Do you think Paul was wrong and YOU are right????
 
After reading this thread I’ve 2 questions in one:

Can you be a Christian if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and not yet been baptized, must you be first baptized in order to be able to receive the Holy Spirit?
 
blueskies said:
After reading this thread I’ve 2 questions in one:

Can you be a Christian if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and not yet been baptized, must you be first baptized in order to be able to receive the Holy Spirit?
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Hello blueskies;

"Can you be a Christian if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?" Yes, when one is a proclaimed believer in Jesus Christ, repents of their sins and choose to follow Him.

"and not yet been baptized, must you be first baptized in order to be able to receive the Holy Spirit?" Yes, when one proclaims Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, repents of their sins, is an act of a Spiritual Baptism and receives the Holy Spirit.

The act of water immersion, or water Baptism follows as a "public testimony" proclamation of following Jesus Christ.

The issue is many believers interpret the Spiritual and Water Baptism as to which "comes first" as required in being promised salvation.

Many Christians encounter debates of this teaching but as one grows in his/her disciple, the Truth / Scriptures is revealed while others remain in their stand of what they believe.

I'm still praying for believers in the Christian community or Church who are still struggling with overall Baptism for their reasons of interpretation. But I give glory to God for the ones who are seriously thinking and discussing this with like believers.

God bless you, blueskies.



 
blueskies said:
After reading this thread I’ve 2 questions in one:

Can you be a Christian if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and not yet been baptized, must you be first baptized in order to be able to receive the Holy Spirit?
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No....Not according to God's word.....Acts...2;38..."repent and be baptized...." et al. [if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior...that includes God's commandments].

[The repentance process is;
1} Repent of sins....Christ called all publicly to His service. The Bible says..."if you do not acknowledge My Father publicly...I will not acknowledge you before My Father". A clear indication that we must repent of our sins in a public fashion. Not in a closet.

2] We must be baptized...a symbolic washing away of our sins by the blood of the Lamb....thereby acknowledging Christ as our savior.

3] Then we must live a righteous life according to God's commandments..."until the end".[ death or 2nd advent of Christ}.
 
gpresdo said:
No....Not according to God's word.....Acts...2;38..."repent and be baptized...." et al. [if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior...that includes God's commandments].

[The repentance process is;
1} Repent of sins....Christ called all publicly to His service. The Bible says..."if you do not acknowledge My Father publicly...I will not acknowledge you before My Father". A clear indication that we must repent of our sins in a public fashion. Not in a closet.

2] We must be baptized...a symbolic washing away of our sins by the blood of the Lamb....thereby acknowledging Christ as our savior.

3] Then we must live a righteous life according to God's commandments..."until the end".[ death or 2nd advent of Christ}.
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So, must I tell everyone everything I have ever done? eek
 
blueskies said:
After reading this thread I’ve 2 questions in one:

Can you be a Christian if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and not yet been baptized, must you be first baptized in order to be able to receive the Holy Spirit?
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PS...be careful, in 2023, of being controlled by an individual's assessment...be guided by God's word. The Bible says...in the end times there will be great delusions....we are there and they are here .........including on this forum ......as well as others.

I suggest the 1611 edition of the KJV Bible.
 
Via dolarossa said:
So, must I tell everyone everything I have ever done? eek
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Not per the Bible. Repentance is to God. The act of doing so is to be done...publicly.
Remember the Bible says..."Thou shall have no other gods before Me". Putting anyone before God in repentance is a violation.
 
Via dolarossa said:
How is this done then? Does that mean that my boss gets to see my face when I decide to repent when last week I thought she was being a ****?

Or are we to put on some kind of hat to say we are in repentance mode for something?
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If your boss is present in the arena when you decide to get on your knees and confess your sins. before all mankind.....yes. Publicly means publicly.
 
Hello gpresdo , I have taken onboard what you have said, and you're right, we do need to read the bible, and mediate upon it.


If your boss is present in the arena when you decide to get on your knees and confess your sins. before all mankind.....yes. Publicly means publicly.
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But I don't understand how this would even be possible.
under your reasoning, and please correct me if you think I am barking up the wrong tree....
Going back to my sin to my boss of thinking she is a ****. For me to repent and confess this To God, in front of all humanity, I would have to be televised doing it somewhere. Or chipped and plugged into a matrix somewhere where you could see exactly what my sin was and if I have naturally repented.. Now, whilst in this sinful world, I think is a good idea, it's actually not possible. Because there is one bible verse I remember. Only God can know our hearts. So, as Truth, sola scripturally, This is not open to being violated. So who is to say, that if we publicly repent, say, in a church, we are actually not really repenting but pretending to. Even chipped and plugged in, It is STILL not possible to know another heart. so what's the point of a public display?

I have found the scripture here:


1 Kings 8:39
Verse Concepts
then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for you alone know the hearts of all the sons of men


Your thoughts are most welcome.

Blessings brother.

Edit. lie detectors are not always correct I hear.
 
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Brother gpresdo

I have also been thinking bother.

Whilst you are onto something with the public display of repentance and sorrow. I like your idea. But we cannot deny the scriptures. I once used to believe the eyes are the windows of the soul…we think we can begin to trust them again. Yes, this is scriptural to forgive, but not to place our selves in constant danger.


some people believe they know when someone has repented and it’s a noble quality to trust someone again fully.

But NO!!

Look what Jesus said….

Matthew 6:22 ESV /​

“The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light,

There’s a HUGE difference between the eyes being a window to our souls and the EYE being a lamp.

God Bless you and Thankyou for bringing this topic up I’ve learned something today❤️

Edit:

It’s like when you trust your partner multiple times because they say they are sorry and then they do it again and again.

Where do we draw the line?
 
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gpresdo said:
No....Not according to God's word.....Acts...2;38..."repent and be baptized...." et al. [if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior...that includes God's commandments].

[The repentance process is;
1} Repent of sins....Christ called all publicly to His service. The Bible says..."if you do not acknowledge My Father publicly...I will not acknowledge you before My Father". A clear indication that we must repent of our sins in a public fashion. Not in a closet.

2] We must be baptized...a symbolic washing away of our sins by the blood of the Lamb....thereby acknowledging Christ as our savior.

3] Then we must live a righteous life according to God's commandments..."until the end".[ death or 2nd advent of Christ}.
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Now lets play Nursing Home!

You are in one, you are in very bad health. You have never given your life to Christ. Oh, YOU know because your children have begged to accept Jesus as your Lord. But you never have.

Then one day I walk in and say to you........."The doctor just spoke to me in the hall and said that you do not have long to live".

Then I explain the gospel to you one more time and low and behold the Spirit of God convicts you and you say YES to the Lord Jesus Christ and you ask him to save you. Then 2 minutes later YOU die. You were never baptized in water.

According to your understanding........YOU are distained for eternal torments! Now in reality what you and those who think as you do are saying is that God's blood is not good enough or strong enough to save me. If I had just been able to go down to a bathtub and gotten wet, I would have been saved.

Now, with all the respect I have for you, and in Christian love to you.....My dear friend, that is not the God I know who is found in the Scriptures.
 
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