Vote your conscience or vote your faith

[Major]

REPLY TO ALL:

I am not ignoring you, I am merely waiting for the emotions to settle. It is very human to assume that whatever you already believe is a law of the universe. We often see people write things and cite a veerse of scripture to support their position, and the scripture says the exact opposite. I have met ministers who could not read the scriptures the way the were written because their denomination taught something different. I sometimes say things that come from a word study ("rod" for instance) and people have never been exposed to a word study.

Earlier in this thread I said "But God does not send political candidates. After all, God commanded His people to have no king, and no laws in the land outside walled cities. So you are going against God's will right from the start." Some people can't understand my point because they never understood that Satan is the god of this world and the God of rightness does not overstep Satan's dominion. Some people think God is all-powerful, and He is not. The bible mentions several things God can't do and there are lots of things He can't or won't do because it would not be right.

So when we reach this point of total lack of understanding there is little that I can do other than say something nice and leave you alone until you study some more and God gives you understanding. I am not a gifted teacher so I can't do it myself.

I am sorry for my failure, but there it is.

I appreciate your comments brother. Far be it from me to debate you on your comments and I will not argue the points, but I would only point out a couple of things for all of us to consider from the Scriptures themselves and then allow those Scriptures to speak to our heart.

Jeremiah 32:17 seems to say very clearly that........
"Ah, Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you".

Genesis 17:1 says …...…….
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

That seems to be saying to me that God is all-powerful, and indicates that He can do anything He pleases. BUT that is just me!!!!

It has been said over the years by really wonderful and smart people that if there were some actions or things that God could not do then He would NOT BE the all powerful God that He said He is.

A true understanding of what God can and cannot do is logically expressed as follows:

1)
God is all-powerful and can do anything.

2).
God cannot do some things (lie, be tempted).

Therefore, an all-powerful God chooses to not allow Himself to do certain things that would cause Him to be less than all-powerful.

To express it another way, the only things God cannot do are those things that would cause Him to no longer be all-powerful or perfect.
God cannot lie according to Hebrews 6:18 because lying would mean He was no longer perfect and all-powerful.

God cannot be tempted by sin according to James 1:13 because He would then exhibit a sign of weakness and no longer be all-powerful.

Consider this Bible fact........God also cannot stop being God. He is eternal and by definition could not become finite as seen in Psalms 90:2 and 2nd Tim. 2:13 teaches that God cannot deny Himself.

 

[Major]

These are complex issues and each issue is one of a large number of interrelated issues.

This is my point regarding not assumeing that a brother that comes down on the 'other' side must not be comitted to the same Lord.

Excellent point.

 

[aha]

REPLY TO ALL:
Earlier in this thread I said "But God does not send political candidates. After all, God commanded His people to have no king, and no laws in the land outside walled cities. So you are going against God's will right from the start." Some people can't understand my point because they never understood that Satan is the god of this world and the God of rightness does not overstep Satan's dominion.

I googled, I tried to but I can't seem to find the related verse, thus, if I may request for the Bible verse of the quoted above in red font

Your earlier post on the thread especially the related Temptation of Christ, got me thinking…
and it is interesting lesson, a reminder if not a "revelation" to ponder on, and am and trying to relate it to Matthew 22:21
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

and it also so happens am reading 1 Peter and some chapters seems to relate on how to relate with the "world"..
1PET 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1PET 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1PET 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

 

[Lanolin]

I am reading a book about william wilberforce at the moment. He, along with others was known for abolishing slavery or the slave trade in England and her colonies.

Its about the history of a group called the 'clapham sect' and how influential they were in British society. They were a group of high born men and women, who were faithful christians, and used their position to do good and transform the nation. They were telling the gospel to their wealthy friends.

At the same time, this was back in the 19th century just coming into the Victorian era, wesley and his group were sharing the gospel with the poor working class. There was a huge divide between rich and poor.

Now I dont know that much about british politics only there were two main parties, whig and tory. Whigs being liberal left wing and tory being the conservative right wing. Obviously the clapham sect were categorised as tory voters and maybe the weslyans were whig supporters, but I dont think that determined everything they did. The determining factor in all their good works was Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour.

 

[Saul Mine]

I googled, I tried to but I can't seem to find the related verse, thus, if I may request for the Bible verse of the quoted above in red font

Your earlier post on the thread especially the related Temptation of Christ, got me thinking…
and it is interesting lesson, a reminder if not a "revelation" to ponder on, and am and trying to relate it to Matthew 22:21
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

and it also so happens am reading 1 Peter and some chapters seems to relate on how to relate with the "world"..
1PET 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1PET 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1PET 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

Judges 17:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.


Judges 18:1 King James Version (KJV)
18 In those days there was no king in Israel: and in those days the tribe of the Danites sought them an inheritance to dwell in; for unto that day all their inheritance had not fallen unto them among the tribes of Israel.

Judges 19:1 King James Version (KJV)
19 And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel, that there was a certain Levite sojourning on the side of mount Ephraim, who took to him a concubine out of Bethlehemjudah.

Judges 21:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Here is a wordy analysis:
http://www.etrfi.info/immanuel/05/Immanuel_05_027.pdf

And this:
There are also brief glosses on six minor judges: Shamgar(3:31), Tola and Jair (10:1–5), Ibzan, Elon, and Abdon (12:8–15).[11] Some scholars have inferred that the minor judges were actual adjudicators, whereas the major judges were leaders and did not actually make legal judgements.[12] The only major judge described as making legal judgments is Deborah (4:4).[13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judges
(I detest wikipedia because it does not follow its stated goal to present facts. It is flooded with opinions. The only requirement is the opinion must be published in another source.)

Sorry, I could not locate the verse that says "no law in the land between cities" or "be not like the nations." But there is 1 Samuel 8 (the whole chapter).

 

[Saul Mine]

I appreciate your comments brother. Far be it from me to debate you on your comments and I will not argue the points, but I would only point out a couple of things for all of us to consider from the Scriptures themselves and then allow those Scriptures to speak to our heart.

Jeremiah 32:17 seems to say very clearly that........
"Ah, Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you".

Genesis 17:1 says …...…….
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

That seems to be saying to me that God is all-powerful, and indicates that He can do anything He pleases. BUT that is just me!!!!

It has been said over the years by really wonderful and smart people that if there were some actions or things that God could not do then He would NOT BE the all powerful God that He said He is.

A true understanding of what God can and cannot do is logically expressed as follows:

1)
God is all-powerful and can do anything.

2).
God cannot do some things (lie, be tempted).

Therefore, an all-powerful God chooses to not allow Himself to do certain things that would cause Him to be less than all-powerful.

To express it another way, the only things God cannot do are those things that would cause Him to no longer be all-powerful or perfect.
God cannot lie according to Hebrews 6:18 because lying would mean He was no longer perfect and all-powerful.

God cannot be tempted by sin according to James 1:13 because He would then exhibit a sign of weakness and no longer be all-powerful.

Consider this Bible fact........God also cannot stop being God. He is eternal and by definition could not become finite as seen in Psalms 90:2 and 2nd Tim. 2:13 teaches that God cannot deny Himself.

I suggest that God can do anything He wants to, and can NOT do anything He does NOT want to. IOW God's ability equals His willingness.

 

[Lanolin]

I suggest that God can do anything He wants to, and can NOT do anything He does NOT want to. IOW God's ability equals His willingness.

That makes sense.

I think we dont need to get into convulated arguments over what God can or cannot do. He's holy, so its in His nature to be holy. A Holy God can never do anything wrong and wouldnt want to do anything wrong. Anything He does is always for a purpose and He even can make evil come right in the end.

Another thing, nobody is the boss of God!

Although us humans try and boss God around a bit methinks. As if we know better. But of course, we dont! His ways are higher than ours.

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

I work with a lot of politicians. They start out wanting to make a difference and many of them get lost in the process. This is on both sides or whatever side any one is on.

Think about the life a politician lives..... constantly TALKING, getting votes, getting people on your side...... this has to be the worst job in the world.
I am sure some of them are wonderful people at work and at home, but I am leery of anything or anyone on Capitol Hill.

 

[Major]

Sorry can you clarify is this another one of those " discussions" or did you want to start a debate where you pick one side and argue it to death while throwing stones at the other side?

Billy graham was friends to all the PUSAS it seems. Although I have read his autobiography that he felt Nixon, who left in a scandal with watergate, was not being honest with him all the time. Apparently Nixon was a quaker or raised that way. I do think no matter what religion you are raised with, doesnt guarantee you will always stick with it.

Jimmy Carter as far as I know is the only born again christian president. I dont know what side he represents but I think party lines can become blurred. You could be either side and be a christian for either I reckon but since Christ is the cornerstone...it seems hes not right or left. But the foundation of it all.

I suggest you do a little homework. Start at...….https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/20/almost-all-presidents-have-been-christians/

Almost all of the nation’s presidents have been Christians and many have been Episcopalians or Presbyterians, with most of the rest belonging to other prominent Protestant denominations.

 

[Major]

Major,

Yes, I know way to many people that vote their party, regardless of who the actual person is. I have voted almost as often for the right as for the left. I focus on the person and what he/she has to say on issues I find important. I do this, but know that, once they take office, their position will change.

rtm3039

I agree and I am right there with you. It is not what a person says he will do but what they actually do that is important to me.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not a big President Trump fan, however....he has done what he told us he would do and what he has not done is because congress has failed to support his agenda.

 

[Major]

I work with a lot of politicians. They start out wanting to make a difference and many of them get lost in the process. This is on both sides or whatever side any one is on.

Think about the life a politician lives..... constantly TALKING, getting votes, getting people on your side...... this has to be the worst job in the world.
I am sure some of them are wonderful people at work and at home, but I am leery of anything or anyone on Capitol Hill.

Agreed. Trying to bring different sides together for a common cause is impossible. Actually it is and has been a story of who can combine agenda so as to obtain POWER.

 

[Major]

Siloam,

Ok, that was well stated, articulate, and a better take than my position. However; could you not say that your comment "... when the other side offers a solution that may not be to our specifications, but finds an alternate way of addressing concerns." is, in fact, finding a way towards the middle?

I do grant; however, that there are issues which really do not have a common point that is found in the middle. Off hand, I am thinking of something like abortion. This is a right or left position, with no equitable position in the middle (I think).

rtm3039

Agreed. I used to tell my deceased father that when he voted for a person who was in favor of abortion, he was just as guilty as if he had done the deed himself.

Proverbs 24:12...…..

If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?​

 

[rtm3039]

Agreed. I used to tell my deceased father that when he voted for a person who was in favor of abortion, he was just as guilty as if he had done the deed himself.

Proverbs 24:12...…..
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Major, while I understand that we have created a bureaucracy that requires politicians, I must admit that I have little respect or care for any of them. They say what they have to, because they need as many votes as possible. Once in, they do what they want. I get it, just don't like it,

rtm3039

 

[findtruth]

I vote both my conscious and my faith. To me when I decide who to vote for, I will first pray for God's direction . Then I will look for the person who is closest to following biblical principles. My main one to look for is are they pro Life or pro choice. This one principle of the candidate being pro life will show me where they stand in there moral beliefs. Our country was founded in Christian values and principles. Unfortunately, our country is turning away from this. God bless our nation! I will continue to pray for leaders who follow God.

 

[rtm3039]

I vote both my conscious and my faith. To me when I decide who to vote for, I will first pray for God's direction . Then I will look for the person who is closest to following biblical principles. My main one to look for is are they pro Life or pro choice. This one principle of the candidate being pro life will show me where they stand in there moral beliefs. Our country was founded in Christian values and principles. Unfortunately, our country is turning away from this. God bless our nation! I will continue to pray for leaders who follow God.

Greetings findtruth, hope you are having a peaceful Monday. While I agree that a candidate's position on life (vs choice) is a great yardstick to measure that candidate's beliefs, it's difficult to know the totality of a candidate. We have had many that are pro-life, yet hold other beliefs that could not really be considered Christian.

Unfortunately; however, I must disagree with your comment that "Our country was founded on Christian values." In fact, I offer the text of Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, which notes, in part: ".As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen . . . " I also offer the following: "“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” O have always believed that the decision to use the words "by their Creator" was a purposeful attempt to void Christian inclination.

Personally, we would all be better off, if we had been founded in Christianity and not pluralism. - Just my opinion, and I reserve the right to be wrong.

rtm3039

 

[JPPT1974]

If we all lean on the Lord. And voting what He would do. As really it is more on that of what would Jesus do? He is always right no matter what.

 

[Major]

Major, while I understand that we have created a bureaucracy that requires politicians, I must admit that I have little respect or care for any of them. They say what they have to, because they need as many votes as possible. Once in, they do what they want. I get it, just don't like it,

rtm3039

I agree with you. There are very few that I know of that kept their character in tact. I have a dear friend of mine who pastored a large church here in Fl.
He won a seat on the local county ruling board and he has stayed the course and kept his integrity. He is however IMO the minority.

 

[Major]

If we all lean on the Lord. And voting what He would do. As really it is more on that of what would Jesus do? He is always right no matter what.

Good point and I agree completely. Something that most of us forget is that Christianity is the process of allowing Jesus to live through us in all that we do!!!

 

[Lanolin]

There is an upcoming referendum in my country about whether to legalise marijuana or not.

The current party in power, Labour, is putting many decisions to the nation to decide through their conscience.

They also want to change laws on abortion and euthanasia.

Some things in my country that have already been liberalised or legalised include,,,same sex marriage, prostitution.
Some other laws that have been changed or going to be changed are...minimum wage, free tertiary education for the first year, banning single use plastic bags (hooray), banning semi automatic weapons, petrol tax, etc.

I think its not wrong to look at some laws and see if they are working and how they can be made better for everyone. But how they are enforced seems to be the real issue. And the consequences of changing it. It does seem everytime one party changes it, the next one in power has to change it again. Some laws are silly and stupid, and some people abuse the law, and people always manage to find loopholes, but the thing is they are mostly designed to protect people from wrongdoing.
Otherwise if we have no laws we just be living in anarchy I suppose. Everyone just does what they want. And thats not the best thing. Too much fighting.

The problem is laws written down are not the same as laws written on peoples hearts. This is why Jesus came, so when we receive the holy spirit we have a heart change to do what is right in Gods eyes, to please Him. We can only be righteous through Him as He is holy and never wrong.

 

[Lanolin]

I suggest you do a little homework. Start at...….https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/20/almost-all-presidents-have-been-christians/

Almost all of the nation’s presidents have been Christians and many have been Episcopalians or Presbyterians, with most of the rest belonging to other prominent Protestant denominations.

Interesting. I was reading Barack Obamas memoir Dreams of my Father. He does mention getting to know God once he started organising in Chicago because he was involved with many church groups, and when he married Michelle, they married in church.
I wonder if its more the wives, the first ladies, who stayed faithful, that have influenced the presidents faith.