Was This The Greatest Supernatural Event Of The 20th Century?
- Thread starter avemaria
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Correct my brother.
"Signs-wonders-miracles"......or the SIGN GIFTS were exactly that. They were the ability of producing SIGNS given by Christ to the Apostles in Matthew 28 as a souce of proof for the teaching of the gospel which they were commanded to take to the world.
Those SIGNS confirmed what the Apostles taught.
"THEY" in Matthew 28 were the Apostles NOT anyone else. Those sign gifts were in place until John the last Apostle died and his writing completed the New Testament, hence the signs were not needed as we live by faith NOT SIGHT.
Nice to speak with you "patriot 13".
Amen my brother!!!!!!
What do you think men like Gill, Spurgeon, Mehenry etc. would be preaching IF they had seen that event take place???
I put a $1.00 in the pot so you owe me .98 cents.
Dear sister Ava,
I do understand where you are coming from and what you are saying. You stated...........................................
"What the book of Revelation chapter 12:17 says to me is that Mary is my Mother and the mother of Christians. That is my personal interpretation of those Scriptures and if you find different meaning, I respect you and have no interest in arguing with you about it.
I have had no desire that anyone's belief's get disrespected as a result of this thread and if the Mods have objections to it could you please move it rather than delete it. There must be somewhere else on this website where we could be permitted to discuss such things because as you can see this must be an interesting topic for people.
In the less than two days that this topic has been posted there have been a flood of replies and in my opinion much interesting and fruitful discussion."
Do not worry about the mods. As long as there is fruitfull and POLITE and respectful conversation, they are happy.
From what I have read, this thread has been all of that. The problem comes when someone looses their temper, theN their focus changes to personal name calling and anger.........THEN THE MODS HAVE TO STEP IN AS THEY SHOULD.
Now lets read Revelation 12:17 shall we............
Rev. 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Now we can see some of the differances in our conversation.
CONTEXT. Who is the woman??? MARY???
Revelation 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
The woman, represents Israel
The dragon, representing Satan
The man-child, referring to Jesus
The angel Michael, head of the angelic host
The offspring of the woman, representing Gentiles who come to faith in the Tribulation
The beast out of the sea, representing the antichrist
The beast out of the earth, representing the false prophet who promotes the antichrist
A woman clothed with the sun:
Because John plainly says this is a sign, we don’t expect this woman to appear literally on the earth.God will use this sign to communicate something to John and to us.Women often represent religious systems in Revelation.
Jezebel is associated with a religious system of false teaching (Revelation 2:20)
The Great Harlot is associated with false religion (Revelation 17:2)
The Bride is associated with the church (Revelation 19:7-8)
The woman clothed with the sun in this passage has been associated with many different religious ideas.Roman Catholics claim this woman is Mary, pictured as the “Queen of Heaven.”Mary Baker Eddy said she was this woman.
It is common in Roman Catholic art to represent Mary as standing on a crescent moon with twelve stars around her head.
Scripturally, and this is all that we are concerned with, this woman clothed with the sun should be identified with Israel, according to Joseph’s dream (Genesis 37:9-11).In that dream, the sun represents Jacob, the moon represents Joseph’s mother Rachel, and the eleven stars are the sons of Israel which bow down to Joseph.In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now “among” the other tribes of Israel.
In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20).
The dragon is of course Satan. But who is the woman???????????
The RCC teaches that it is Mary but lets look closer at the verse.
"and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,"
The target of Satan is the REMNANT of her seed. That can only refer to the faithful ones who stay true.
The woman in verse 17 IS NOT MARY. BUT IS ACTUALLY ISRAEL.
On September 8 1947 Mary appeared with a Bible in her hand to an anti-catholic named Bruno Cornacchiola who was planning on killing the Pope, and told him that she was the woman from Revelation chapter 12 and told him to enter the true sheepfold. He dedicated the rest of his life to giving his testimony and trying to convert the Seventh Day Adventists. (http://www.indefenseofthecross.com/Virgin_of_Revelation.htm)
When Mary appeared at Guadalupe she left a miraculous image on the tilma of Juan Diego of a woman clothed with the sun and standing on the moon. Scientists have examined the image and like the shroud of Turin there is no Scientific explanation for how the image got there nor can it be explained why the cactus fibers that the tilma is made of have not decomposed after 500 years.
Revelation Chapter 12.
the child of the Woman brought about cannot be anyone else than Christ, because the dragon is standing before the Woman attempting to devour him at his birth, which refers to the unsuccessful persecution through Herod (Mt 2). He shall “rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5) which refers to his nationwide reign through the Church.
Why then refuse to identify the “Woman clothed with the sun” with the Mother of Jesus?
However I know there are many different interpretations on this. There are so many different interpretations of the book of Revelation. I have mine you have yours. Scripture is something that people have dedicated their lives to studying, praying for the Holy spirit for insight, and still come up with disagreements on so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
As far as there being signs from God in our Modern time. That only contradicts Scripture if we look at it according to your interpretation. Christ often spoke in Hyperbole’s. He didn’t specify which generation would be refused a sign. There were certain towns where Christ refused to work signs and wonders based on their lack of Faith.
Matthew 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky”. Some say the sign of the son of Man will be a cross in the sky
John 14:12 I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done.
“The purpose of the signs in Biblical times, is because they did not have the Bible in written form.”
Well the first Bible was printed more than 1400 years after the death of Christ. Before the printing press each Bible was handwritten and it would take some monk more than 10 years of his life to do so and then there had to be an investigation as to whether there were any errors in the copy or translation.
So consequently, in a period of more than a thousand years it wasn’t possible for even 1% of Christians to own their own Bible.
It seems clear to me that many of us have not been given the anointing to perfectly understand Scripture. It seems clear that Christ left an authority on the earth to decide the canon of Scripture and put the Bible together. My belief is that he also established an authoritative interpreter of the Scripture and I refer to what I believe that authority to be.
I was raised by a Mother who believed in “Scripture alone” and she kept the Saturday Sabbath and didn’t eat pork. I heard constant disagreements between Christians about whether the day of rest was Saturday or Sunday, whether we should eat kosher, disagreements about whether you should celebrate christmas or have a nativity set, conflict about what Baptism was or what the correct words should be, what did Christ mean by “unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of Man you have no life in you”, disagreements about whether the apostles did or did not have successors, disagreements about whether Jesus was Divine, disagreements on whether God wants to heal us or carry the cross, some say you should only pray to the Father and not to Jesus, and the list goes on and on.
All of these people come to their conclusions based on their study and interpretation of Scripture and remain divided on so many issues so that is why I humbly submit to the authority that I believe the Holy Spirit is asking me to.
It seems this division is caused by people who think they can take it into their own hands to be the authority. This division is unscriptural
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
A house divided against itself cannot stand (Matthew 12:25)
That is why I believe God left us an authoritative interpreter and clearly see the need for it. Im telling you why I believe that and you are welcome to believe what you believe, not telling you that you need to believe what I do, just giving the reasons for my belief
Pax vobis!
When Mary appeared at Guadalupe she left a miraculous image on the tilma of Juan Diego of a woman clothed with the sun and standing on the moon. Scientists have examined the image and like the shroud of Turin there is no Scientific explanation for how the image got there nor can it be explained why the cactus fibers that the tilma is made of have not decomposed after 500 years.
Revelation Chapter 12.
the child of the Woman brought about cannot be anyone else than Christ, because the dragon is standing before the Woman attempting to devour him at his birth, which refers to the unsuccessful persecution through Herod (Mt 2). He shall “rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5) which refers to his nationwide reign through the Church.
Why then refuse to identify the “Woman clothed with the sun” with the Mother of Jesus?
However I know there are many different interpretations on this. There are so many different interpretations of the book of Revelation. I have mine you have yours. Scripture is something that people have dedicated their lives to studying, praying for the Holy spirit for insight, and still come up with disagreements on so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
As far as there being signs from God in our Modern time. That only contradicts Scripture if we look at it according to your interpretation. Christ often spoke in Hyperbole’s. He didn’t specify which generation would be refused a sign. There were certain towns where Christ refused to work signs and wonders based on their lack of Faith.
Matthew 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky”. Some say the sign of the son of Man will be a cross in the sky
John 14:12 I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done.
“The purpose of the signs in Biblical times, is because they did not have the Bible in written form.”
Well the first Bible was printed more than 1400 years after the death of Christ. Before the printing press each Bible was handwritten and it would take some monk more than 10 years of his life to do so and then there had to be an investigation as to whether there were any errors in the copy or translation.
So consequently, in a period of more than a thousand years it wasn’t possible for even 1% of Christians to own their own Bible.
It seems clear to me that many of us have not been given the anointing to perfectly understand Scripture. It seems clear that Christ left an authority on the earth to decide the canon of Scripture and put the Bible together. My belief is that he also established an authoritative interpreter of the Scripture and I refer to what I believe that authority to be.
I was raised by a Mother who believed in “Scripture alone” and she kept the Saturday Sabbath and didn’t eat pork. I heard constant disagreements between Christians about whether the day of rest was Saturday or Sunday, whether we should eat kosher, disagreements about whether you should celebrate christmas or have a nativity set, conflict about what Baptism was or what the correct words should be, what did Christ mean by “unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of Man you have no life in you”, disagreements about whether the apostles did or did not have successors, disagreements about whether Jesus was Divine, disagreements on whether God wants to heal us or carry the cross, some say you should only pray to the Father and not to Jesus, and the list goes on and on.
All of these people come to their conclusions based on their study and interpretation of Scripture and remain divided on so many issues so that is why I humbly submit to the authority that I believe the Holy Spirit is asking me to.
It seems this division is caused by people who think they can take it into their own hands to be the authority. This division is unscriptural
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
A house divided against itself cannot stand (Matthew 12:25)
That is why I believe God left us an authoritative interpreter and clearly see the need for it. Im telling you why I believe that and you are welcome to believe what you believe, not telling you that you need to believe what I do, just giving the reasons for my belief
Pax vobis!
Ava, You said............
"Revelation Chapter 12.
the child of the Woman brought about cannot be anyone else than Christ, because the dragon is standing before the Woman attempting to devour him at his birth, which refers to the unsuccessful persecution through Herod (Mt 2). He shall “rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5) which refers to his nationwide reign through the Church.
Why then refuse to identify the “Woman clothed with the sun” with the Mother of Jesus?"
Did you read my comment in #65????
John saw a vision of a pregnant woman clothed with the sun, standing on the moon and crowned with twelve stars. That woman is symbolic of Israel, who gave birth to the Messiah. The twelve stars are symbolic of the twelve tribes of Israel. See Gen. 37:9,10. AS it is stated in the verses, Satan wages war with her remnant. That fact rules out Mary completly my dear!!!!
By focusing in upon verses 1-5 only and going no further, the Catholic Church wrongly portrays the woman here as Mary, crowned with twelve stars and standing on the moon. Imagine that! That grave misconception is the basis for the many Mary statues in the Catholic Church of her pictured that way.
See verse 14 too. If the woman is Mary the mother of Jesus, she sprouts eagle wings and flies away into the desert to be taken care of for 1,260 days, yet in the future! Obviously, the Catholic Church doesn’t connect verses 6 and 14 to the first five verses when misapplying this chapter to exalt Mary.
I say this so that all may understand the application here. One may believe anything, all I am doing is explaining the Scriptures, NOT what a church might or might not say. IF we misapply this verses........all of the rest of Revelation is wrong because we will have replaced Israel with the Church and "Replacement Theology" is very, very wrong and dangereous.
"Revelation Chapter 12.
the child of the Woman brought about cannot be anyone else than Christ, because the dragon is standing before the Woman attempting to devour him at his birth, which refers to the unsuccessful persecution through Herod (Mt 2). He shall “rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5) which refers to his nationwide reign through the Church.
Why then refuse to identify the “Woman clothed with the sun” with the Mother of Jesus?"
Did you read my comment in #65????
John saw a vision of a pregnant woman clothed with the sun, standing on the moon and crowned with twelve stars. That woman is symbolic of Israel, who gave birth to the Messiah. The twelve stars are symbolic of the twelve tribes of Israel. See Gen. 37:9,10. AS it is stated in the verses, Satan wages war with her remnant. That fact rules out Mary completly my dear!!!!
By focusing in upon verses 1-5 only and going no further, the Catholic Church wrongly portrays the woman here as Mary, crowned with twelve stars and standing on the moon. Imagine that! That grave misconception is the basis for the many Mary statues in the Catholic Church of her pictured that way.
See verse 14 too. If the woman is Mary the mother of Jesus, she sprouts eagle wings and flies away into the desert to be taken care of for 1,260 days, yet in the future! Obviously, the Catholic Church doesn’t connect verses 6 and 14 to the first five verses when misapplying this chapter to exalt Mary.
I say this so that all may understand the application here. One may believe anything, all I am doing is explaining the Scriptures, NOT what a church might or might not say. IF we misapply this verses........all of the rest of Revelation is wrong because we will have replaced Israel with the Church and "Replacement Theology" is very, very wrong and dangereous.
given the anointening? scriptures were written for everyone to understand, not just the certain few. One of the 95 thesis of martin Luther, if I recall, and one of my biggest gripes with the catholic church. That only the few can properly understand scripture is a completly false doctrine, it was given for all christians, all mankind. Its not that hard to understand. When I hear someone say "you have to be anointed" to understand, it usually tranlsates into theyre intentionally misinterpreting scripture to say what they want it to say, and by saying that they dont have to explain themselves, or defend scripture because obviously, "the other person isnt anointed" to understand it. Completly false.
Ava, you posted a lot of question about your family and what they believed and taught and argued over, Sabbaths, pork, etc.
Please do not take this the wrong way as I mean no harm to you whatsoever, but allow me to say to you that every single comment you said are the result of not studying the Word of God. It is NOT a matter of interpretation but simple the lack of study and finding the correct answer. I would say that every single comment you said can be answered Biblically if you choose to know them.
Now a Jew will argue over kosher. A 7th day Advantist will aregue or Sat. or Sunday to worship. BUT Ava......................
those are DENOMINATIONAL or RELIGIOUSE matters and not Bible problems.
If you choose to continue..........ask and we will procede on any question you might like to entertain which has caused you concern.
Example.........your said your mother "she kept the Saturday Sabbath and didn’t eat pork".
Now is that something to argue over? What does the Bible say????
Some Christians do avoid the eating of pork because of the Old Testament biblical laws mentioning this. The Seventh Day Adventist denomination is one which observes this practice. The majority of Christians believe that the laws do not apply to them and that this law, along with others, passed with the sacrifice of Christ.
BUT.......that Law was given to the Jews in the Old Test. and we are not under the Law today. That is why Paul said to us in 1 Timothy 4:1-5.........
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
Bingo. End of argument!
Please do not take this the wrong way as I mean no harm to you whatsoever, but allow me to say to you that every single comment you said are the result of not studying the Word of God. It is NOT a matter of interpretation but simple the lack of study and finding the correct answer. I would say that every single comment you said can be answered Biblically if you choose to know them.
Now a Jew will argue over kosher. A 7th day Advantist will aregue or Sat. or Sunday to worship. BUT Ava......................
those are DENOMINATIONAL or RELIGIOUSE matters and not Bible problems.
If you choose to continue..........ask and we will procede on any question you might like to entertain which has caused you concern.
Example.........your said your mother "she kept the Saturday Sabbath and didn’t eat pork".
Now is that something to argue over? What does the Bible say????
Some Christians do avoid the eating of pork because of the Old Testament biblical laws mentioning this. The Seventh Day Adventist denomination is one which observes this practice. The majority of Christians believe that the laws do not apply to them and that this law, along with others, passed with the sacrifice of Christ.
BUT.......that Law was given to the Jews in the Old Test. and we are not under the Law today. That is why Paul said to us in 1 Timothy 4:1-5.........
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
Bingo. End of argument!
There is sometimes a sufficient answer but I have seen other times where there is overwhelming evidence for a particular belief like what was taught about Holy Communion in John 6:51-58 each last supper account and Corinthians 11:27 yet people still find ways to justify not believing it.
Christ made it clear that a man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery with her (or the other way around) yet people find ways around that
There are places in Scripture where it says “all shall be saved”
All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved Romans (10:13)
But Matthew 7:21 says, "Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
But when Christ separates the sheep from the goats (Matt 25:31-) it was entirely based on the acts of charity they did or did not do for the least of Christs people (works)
These are a few of many examples
I have known plenty of people who know their Bible inside out and still disagree on plenty of issues. Yes you can find an answer to your question in Scripture but many times people with two different opinions can find Scripture to support either one.
Im not saying that is a Bible problem. The problem lies in the interpreter.
Anyway, I believe that Jesus is my Lord and savior, his death atoned for my sins, I believe there is one God, I believe in the Holy Spirit, and believe that the Bible is the Word of God. It looks to me like we have a lot in common.
How about Christians focus more on what they have in common rather than their differences?
The times are very evil and Godless and Christians need to be united in this fight against the evil forces behind the culture of death.
Christ made it clear that a man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery with her (or the other way around) yet people find ways around that
There are places in Scripture where it says “all shall be saved”
All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved Romans (10:13)
But Matthew 7:21 says, "Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
But when Christ separates the sheep from the goats (Matt 25:31-) it was entirely based on the acts of charity they did or did not do for the least of Christs people (works)
These are a few of many examples
I have known plenty of people who know their Bible inside out and still disagree on plenty of issues. Yes you can find an answer to your question in Scripture but many times people with two different opinions can find Scripture to support either one.
Im not saying that is a Bible problem. The problem lies in the interpreter.
Anyway, I believe that Jesus is my Lord and savior, his death atoned for my sins, I believe there is one God, I believe in the Holy Spirit, and believe that the Bible is the Word of God. It looks to me like we have a lot in common.
How about Christians focus more on what they have in common rather than their differences?
The times are very evil and Godless and Christians need to be united in this fight against the evil forces behind the culture of death.
Simply not so Ava.
God gave us His word to guide us and inform us and fill us with wisdom so that we can make right choices.
Allow me to ask you.........are these YOUR concerns or are you copy and pasting someone elses reasons and opinions??
I ask that because it seems that you are now purposefully trying to disprove the very Scriptures God gave us by asking questions that simply are not true OR theey are being misrepresented.
1). Your comment was.....
"Holy Communion in John 6:51-58 each last supper account and Corinthians 11:27 yet people still find ways to justify not believing it."
I have no clue what you are referring to. Would you care to clarify ?????
2.) Your comment was.......
"Christ made it clear that a man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery with her".
The whole passage shows what is adultery and how serious its consequences are, one of them is divorce, or separation. Adultery is a reason for a man to leave his wife, and if a man leaves his wife out of the grounds of adultery, he makes her commit adultery. If he divorces because she has committed adultery, whoever will marry this woman will commit adultery because he marries a woman who has committed adultery.
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Corinthians 5:17)(NASB)
He who returned to the Lord is free to start a family in the Lord and the one who will marry with that Christian will not commit adultery, because he does not marry the immoral of the other time, but the man or the woman who have become a new creation in Christ. The old things passed away; behold new things have come.
This is a lack of Bible study, NO contradiction!
3) You said...........
"There are places in Scripture where it says “all shall be saved”
All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved Romans (10:13)".
Ava, obvousely you have not studied the Bible very long. This is a matter of not knowing. The Bible NEVER declares anywhere that ALL will be saved. That is called "Universal Salvation" and it IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE!
When you quote Rom. 10:13 and say "ALL who call", obviousely that mean THE ONES WHO CHOOSE CHRIST!.
ALL of those who CHOOSE Christ will be saved. There is absolutly no suggestion that that verse means univeral salvation.
Again, this is a lack of Bible study.....NO contradiction at all.
4). You said........
"But Matthew 7:21 says, "Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Since you now have the correct understanding of Rom. 10:13, you can see that there is not contradiction to Matt. 7:21.
It is clear that everyone who SAYS that they are a Christrian, is in fact NOT a Christian which is exactly what Jesus is saying.
Again, this is simply a lack of Bible study......NO contradiction.
5) You stated..............
"But when Christ separates the sheep from the goats (Matt 25:31-) it was entirely based on the acts of charity they did or did not do for the least of Christs people (works)
Jesus will return on the last day in his glory as the King of heaven and earth to judge the living and the dead. He will then separate the sheep from the goats. The sheep, our text tells us, are the blessed ones of the heavenly Father, who receive the inheritance, the kingdom prepared for them since the beginning of the world. The Bible clarifies the kingdom of heaven was prepared from the creation of the world for the elect, whom God chose to be brought to faith in Jesus through the gospel. The sheep, then, are the elect, the believers in Jesus. Since there are but two kinds of people in the world, the believers in Jesus and the unbelievers, the goats are the unbelievers.
On the day Jesus comes to judge the living and the dead, he will not point to the faith in the believers’ hearts as the reason for their inheriting the kingdom prepared for them. He will point to their works--the effects or fruits of their faith. He will point to the smoke of good works as the evidence of the saving fire of faith in their hearts. For as where there is smoke, so there is fire, so likewise where there are good works, there is faith. If there were no faith, there would be no good works.
Again Ava, Bible study will give you the answers you are seeking, BUT there are no contradictions in the Scripture, simply a need to study the Bible for the correct answers and them accept them when they are presented.. Blameing Interpretation is nothing more than a way to say, "I have a problem with the Bible/God telling me what to do and think".
Bless you!
Absolutly correct my brother.
It is a tool in which one can by insinuation say that he is closer to God than everyone else.
It is exactly like some of our brothers who stand and proclaim......"God just spoke to me and said.................."
The ground at the foot of the cross is level and God approaches every single one of us in the same way.
No I wasnt saying those are my concerns
Nor was I trying to disprove Scripture
I was stating some examples of how people can find Scripture verses to justify different opinions.
The truth is I have known people who are very seasoned and know their Bible extremely well who disagree with eachother. I would think you have seen examples of this.
Okay, you asked so now I shall reluctantly explain.
The Scriputres from John 6; Corintians 11:27, and all four last supper accounts had to do with what Christ said about "This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them." Many followers walked away from him at this teaching and he let them go. He didnt call them back to clarify.
In all last supper accounts he said the bread and wine were his body and blood.
Corinthians 11:27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord...29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have died.
People disagree on whether or not Christ was speaking literally or symbolically. Well there are many Scriptures that support a literal translation. I have yet to find a Scripture verse that said he was speaking symbolically.
I have heard both sides of the debate. No need to get into it.
Nor was I trying to disprove Scripture
I was stating some examples of how people can find Scripture verses to justify different opinions.
The truth is I have known people who are very seasoned and know their Bible extremely well who disagree with eachother. I would think you have seen examples of this.
Okay, you asked so now I shall reluctantly explain.
The Scriputres from John 6; Corintians 11:27, and all four last supper accounts had to do with what Christ said about "This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them." Many followers walked away from him at this teaching and he let them go. He didnt call them back to clarify.
In all last supper accounts he said the bread and wine were his body and blood.
Corinthians 11:27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord...29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have died.
People disagree on whether or not Christ was speaking literally or symbolically. Well there are many Scriptures that support a literal translation. I have yet to find a Scripture verse that said he was speaking symbolically.
I have heard both sides of the debate. No need to get into it.
Just to clarify I never believed in universal salvation. I wasnt pointing out to you confusion that I have in regard to that. I was simply saying that people could find verses to support their idea of universal salvation.
That is why a person needs to know the meaning of the Scripture, the context of how it was used, sometimes one also needs to know the culture of the time, or the original language it was written in. One also needs to know if the speech is meant literally, in Hyperbole's, poetry, symbolism, or parables.
Yes you can find answers to your questions in Scripture and Im not argueing that.
The point is that each person with opposing views can often find scriptures to justify it. This can lead to endless debates without Scripture sometimes clearly defining who is correct.
Each person points to the Scripture and says "the Scripture clearly says I'm correct".
Ive seen it many times.
Here are some that a person justifying universal salvation might list:
"
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to myself." (John 12:32)
to reconcile ALL things unto Himself." (Colossians 1:16-20
in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one ALL things
in Christ..."
(Ephesians 1:10)
"Call no man common or unclean." (Acts 10:14-15
God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses
..." (II Corinthians 5:19)
for ALL shall know me, from the least to the greatest." (Hebrews 8:11)
God, who is the saviour of all men..." (I Timothy 4:10)
so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)
who will have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (I Timothy 2:4)
and so shall All Israel be saved." (Romans 11:26)
Anyway, on a lighter note, Happy New Year!
That is why a person needs to know the meaning of the Scripture, the context of how it was used, sometimes one also needs to know the culture of the time, or the original language it was written in. One also needs to know if the speech is meant literally, in Hyperbole's, poetry, symbolism, or parables.
Yes you can find answers to your questions in Scripture and Im not argueing that.
The point is that each person with opposing views can often find scriptures to justify it. This can lead to endless debates without Scripture sometimes clearly defining who is correct.
Each person points to the Scripture and says "the Scripture clearly says I'm correct".
Ive seen it many times.
Here are some that a person justifying universal salvation might list:
"
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to myself." (John 12:32)
to reconcile ALL things unto Himself." (Colossians 1:16-20
in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one ALL things
in Christ..."
(Ephesians 1:10)
"Call no man common or unclean." (Acts 10:14-15
God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses
..." (II Corinthians 5:19)
for ALL shall know me, from the least to the greatest." (Hebrews 8:11)
God, who is the saviour of all men..." (I Timothy 4:10)
so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)
who will have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (I Timothy 2:4)
and so shall All Israel be saved." (Romans 11:26)
Anyway, on a lighter note, Happy New Year!
OK..........I understand now. You are talking about "Transubstanciation verses ‘Consubstantiation’.
The word “transubstantiation” comes from Latin — trans (across), and substantia (substance). The term is employed in Roman Catholic theology to denote the idea that during the ceremony of the “Mass,” the “bread and wine” are changed, in substance, into the flesh and blood of Christ, even though the elements appear to remain the same.
Now you need to understand Ava, this is wholely a RCC concept thus it becomes a "denominational doctrine".
Now having said that, please understand that this concept has no basis in Scripture. It was adopted by the 4th Lateran Council (A.D. 1215), formalized at the Council of Trent (A.D. 1545-63), and was reaffirmed at the Second Vatican Council (1962-65).
“Consubstantiation” is a term commonly applied to the Lutheran concept of the communion supper. . The expression, however, is generally associated with Luther. The idea is that in the communion, the body and blood of Christ, and the bread and wine, coexist in union with each other. “Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337).
Any dogma that attempts to place the “real presence” of the flesh and blood of Christ into the communion components, in a literal sense, is the result of a misunderstanding of the language employed in the Scriptures.
One of the most important skills necessary for the correct interpretation of the Bible is the ability to distinguish between language that is used in a figurative sense versus that which is employed in a literal sense. Human communication abounds with figurative expressions, and a common-sense approach must be taken in the consideration of speech.
I hope that you will do so in trying to make a decision.
My dear, HAPPY New Year!
Now, to place Univeral Salvation on the way the word "ALL" is used in a Scripture is of course very dangereouse and very wrong.
NOT one single verse you posted speaks to every one in the world being saved in the end. NOT ONE!
Jesus made salvation POSSIBLE for ALL people, but to be saved, one must accept the Lord Jesus as their Savior.
Salvation is rooted in CHOICE.
Consider what Jesus has to say about salvation: Jesus answered, " Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
(John 3:5)
" Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."
(Luke 18:17)
" There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out."
(Luke 13:28)
" And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire."
(Mark 9:47)
And He said to them, " Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
(Mark 14:15-16)
" But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
(Revelation 21-8)
" Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."
(Revelation 22:14-15)
It is obvious that Our Lord & Savior, the Author of Salvation, does not support this universal free-ticket to Heaven!!!
I disagree with what you said about Holy Communion.
I have researched what the early Christian leaders wrote about in regard to the real presence. Writings from people like Ignatius of Antioch, 80-110 AD
Justin Martyr A.D. 148-155, Irenaeus of Lyons, 180 AD. And plenty other Christians from the first three centuries. They clearly believed what they were recieving in Holy Communion was the body and blood of Christ. We can see why they would believe that when we look at the words Christ used over and over again and Paul indicated the same thing with his words.
I personally don’t think that Jesus and Paul would have used words that would have confused the early Church. Not to mention in John 6 he lost so many followers when they questioned him and he went on to further explain and emphasize the point he was making.
It looks like that was the first time in his public ministry that he lost followers. He didn’t call them back and explain to them that he was speaking symbolically.
It seems to me in reading the writings of Christians for the next more than 1,000 years after the death of Christ they believed that what they received in Holy Communion truly was the bread of life, the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ.
You have let me know why you believe that I misunderstand the Scripture. If that is the case it sure looks like all of the early Christians who wrote about this topic fell into this misunderstanding and held to it for more than a thousand years after Christ established his Church.
If you want actual quotes from early Christians I can give you some, but I see no need in furthering this conversation. I disagree with you based on what I have read from Scripture and from the writings of early Christians.
Im not insisting that my belief’s are better than yours just giving reasons why I believe that. Not trying to pick a fight or start an arguement.
You had in a previous post mentioned how we believe in good luck charms. No I believe good luck charms are Demonic yet God can and in Scripture has bestowed grace on people through material items.
With the Incarnation of Christ, God chose to use matter to convey grace to the world.
Moses brought the plagues upon egypt by raising his staff, and that was also what parted the red sea.
Elishas bones touched a dead man and brought him back to life.( 2 Kings 13:21)
In Kings chapter 5 Namaan was healed of leprosy after dipping himself in the Jordan seven times.
Paul healed people by blessing hankerchiefs and sending them to the sick. A hankerchief could heal someone with God's grace of course.
Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, . Kings 2:8
Peters shadow fell on people and that healed them.
All these scriptures support the belief that God can use material things (relics) to bring grace and healing to people.
The Ark of the Covenant had relics inside of it and the Ark of the Covenant had a golden Cherubim and Seraphim (Graven images of Angels.) The ancient Israelites had such reverence for the Ark of the Covenant that a man touched it unworthily and died instantly. (2 Samuel 6:2-7)
1 Samuel 6:19But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the Lord. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the Lord had dealt them.
The Ark was considered to be very sacred and powerful and God gave many rules concerning it.
Yes of course God never permits anyone to worship an image and neither does the Church. But to believe that God can give grace through something material including a graven image is Biblical.
People received the grace of Healing by gazing at a golden serpent. I know they were not worshipping it just like when I gaze at a crucifix Im not worshipping the image either.
I don’t believe in good luck Charms and if someone was carrying one of Paul’s blessed Handkerchief’s in their pocket that doesn’t mean they are treating it as a good luck charm.
It was blessed by Paul and the grace of God was healing people through that blessed item. They were also tools for exorcism. (Acts 19:12) “so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.”
As far as the Scriptures you mentioned against Universal salvation I was aware of them and I agree with what you had to say. I dont nor have I ever believed in Universal salvation.
I have researched what the early Christian leaders wrote about in regard to the real presence. Writings from people like Ignatius of Antioch, 80-110 AD
Justin Martyr A.D. 148-155, Irenaeus of Lyons, 180 AD. And plenty other Christians from the first three centuries. They clearly believed what they were recieving in Holy Communion was the body and blood of Christ. We can see why they would believe that when we look at the words Christ used over and over again and Paul indicated the same thing with his words.
I personally don’t think that Jesus and Paul would have used words that would have confused the early Church. Not to mention in John 6 he lost so many followers when they questioned him and he went on to further explain and emphasize the point he was making.
It looks like that was the first time in his public ministry that he lost followers. He didn’t call them back and explain to them that he was speaking symbolically.
It seems to me in reading the writings of Christians for the next more than 1,000 years after the death of Christ they believed that what they received in Holy Communion truly was the bread of life, the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ.
You have let me know why you believe that I misunderstand the Scripture. If that is the case it sure looks like all of the early Christians who wrote about this topic fell into this misunderstanding and held to it for more than a thousand years after Christ established his Church.
If you want actual quotes from early Christians I can give you some, but I see no need in furthering this conversation. I disagree with you based on what I have read from Scripture and from the writings of early Christians.
Im not insisting that my belief’s are better than yours just giving reasons why I believe that. Not trying to pick a fight or start an arguement.
You had in a previous post mentioned how we believe in good luck charms. No I believe good luck charms are Demonic yet God can and in Scripture has bestowed grace on people through material items.
With the Incarnation of Christ, God chose to use matter to convey grace to the world.
Moses brought the plagues upon egypt by raising his staff, and that was also what parted the red sea.
Elishas bones touched a dead man and brought him back to life.( 2 Kings 13:21)
In Kings chapter 5 Namaan was healed of leprosy after dipping himself in the Jordan seven times.
Paul healed people by blessing hankerchiefs and sending them to the sick. A hankerchief could heal someone with God's grace of course.
Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, . Kings 2:8
Peters shadow fell on people and that healed them.
All these scriptures support the belief that God can use material things (relics) to bring grace and healing to people.
The Ark of the Covenant had relics inside of it and the Ark of the Covenant had a golden Cherubim and Seraphim (Graven images of Angels.) The ancient Israelites had such reverence for the Ark of the Covenant that a man touched it unworthily and died instantly. (2 Samuel 6:2-7)
1 Samuel 6:19But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the Lord. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the Lord had dealt them.
The Ark was considered to be very sacred and powerful and God gave many rules concerning it.
Yes of course God never permits anyone to worship an image and neither does the Church. But to believe that God can give grace through something material including a graven image is Biblical.
People received the grace of Healing by gazing at a golden serpent. I know they were not worshipping it just like when I gaze at a crucifix Im not worshipping the image either.
I don’t believe in good luck Charms and if someone was carrying one of Paul’s blessed Handkerchief’s in their pocket that doesn’t mean they are treating it as a good luck charm.
It was blessed by Paul and the grace of God was healing people through that blessed item. They were also tools for exorcism. (Acts 19:12) “so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.”
As far as the Scriptures you mentioned against Universal salvation I was aware of them and I agree with what you had to say. I dont nor have I ever believed in Universal salvation.
glo, it does say that, it has been given for you twice, in matthew 12:39. In fact, I gave you that very verse in the post your replying to. Do you only read the parts of the reply you want to believe? do you do that with the Bible? let me give you the verse again:
Matthew 12:39 NASB
But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
So far, I have presented Biblical evidence for my viewpoint. You, on the other hand, have ignored every verse given you, and have not presented a single shred of biblical evidence for your cause. I highly recomend you actually open the Bible, and start reading it. Your friend Ave isnt afraid of the Bible-he has quoted it on multiple occasions, why dont you follow his example?
Glomung, your attitude as expressed by "you guys" is a tad divisive don't you think?
RC's think the Pope is 'the man' Ok, fine, others don't.
But if we all believe Christ is Lord and we all look to Him for our salvation, we should all seek to honor Him through our discipleship...no?
Paul said there is neither Jew nor Greek..if he had had 20/20 foresight he might have gone on to add that there is neither Prodestant nor RC, nor Jew nor Gentile.
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