Those studies are not geared towards proving or disproving occult activity in general, but are very focused on silly themes derived from ideas that manifested from the occult world and are based on a very poor understanding of the overall controversy in which this all plays out. Here is a testimony more along the lines of what I am referring to.
What Do I Do With My Tarot Cards?
- Thread starter Polly
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Those studies are not geared towards proving or disproving occult activity in general, but are very focused on silly themes derived from ideas that manifested from the occult world and are based on a very poor understanding of the overall controversy in which this all plays out. Here is a testimony more along the lines of what I am referring to.
Discussion with you goes from giving you scripture expecting you to eat, to spoon feeding, to teaching you English and holding your head back. After this I am done with you here. Unless you can prove to me that you are taking bible study classes.
You seem embarrassed of scripture. You keep saying fundamentalist vs liberal....just not getting that you are liberal to the point of no return. I have seen people close to me go down the road you are on and they are not Christians today.
Before, during and after its creation.
At Sunday school they will teach you that Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by the devil and that Jesus cast demons out of pigs. I would point you to the scripture, but that is clearly a waste of time as in your world your opinion > scripture. Not trying to figure revelations out is smartest for you! We need to crawl before we can walk.
ummm....prove to me you aren't. Show me the scripture that says there are no angels. No rebellion. Show me scripture that says where the angels are. See, I need to do more then spoon feed you. You make this statement with NO backup from scripture. I could not care less about your opinion.
Well I used scripture initially and then thought maybe you need pictures. Disregarding a multitude of testimonies is naive too. Especially when they come from both sides. You will wet your pants if you had to watch the exorcism alone. Why do you think that is?Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. "YouTube testimonies"....right on par with objective testing. You really want to start basing your version of reality based on what people put on YouTube? Really?
Naive = maximum. You judge me off a you-tube link after much scripture has already been provided. You ''want'' to run me down so that you can stick to your imaginary god and version of Christianity.
You seem embarrassed of scripture. You keep saying fundamentalist vs liberal....just not getting that you are liberal to the point of no return. I have seen people close to me go down the road you are on and they are not Christians today.
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I also learned that real life witchcraft is anyway VERY boring. And even if it sometimes helps, it won't still help forever, because the Devil scams people. And Harry Potter magic doesn't exist. Also, real life witchcraft is also too difficult, a lot of spells are very hard to do.
Also, I wonder that why do the Voodoo and Hoodoo people do their spells and rituals by using Christian stuff? Are the demons and the Devil impersonating God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Christian saints and all the other good people and spirits mentioned in the Bible when people is a Voodoo or does Hoodoo stuff?
Also, I wonder that why do the Voodoo and Hoodoo people do their spells and rituals by using Christian stuff? Are the demons and the Devil impersonating God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Christian saints and all the other good people and spirits mentioned in the Bible when people is a Voodoo or does Hoodoo stuff?
Glomung
Account Closed
Occult practices are, for the most part, a corruption of Christian or Jewish practices.
Such as the reversed cross in Satanism, take what is good and turn it around.
Voodoo is a mixture of Roman Catholic and African tribal religious practices that came about in the Caribbean
and Central and South American slave colonies. They were "Christianized", but for a large part refused to let go
of their old beliefs. Thus the Saints were merged with their pagan gods and their practices of "magic" took on some
of the trappings of Catholocism. Regardless, voodoo is still completely evil.
Such as the reversed cross in Satanism, take what is good and turn it around.
Voodoo is a mixture of Roman Catholic and African tribal religious practices that came about in the Caribbean
and Central and South American slave colonies. They were "Christianized", but for a large part refused to let go
of their old beliefs. Thus the Saints were merged with their pagan gods and their practices of "magic" took on some
of the trappings of Catholocism. Regardless, voodoo is still completely evil.
But is it evil because the Devil is scamming people in Voodoo? It doesn't make sense that Voodoo is Catholic, but it's still evil.
Also, if the term "muggle" is real, then I would say that Atheists are the only muggles in this world. For me the term "muggle" means a person that doesn't experience anything religious, paranormal, supernatural or magickal.
My grandmother used to do in that stuff but she tricked us into thinking she was a Christian by going to church and singing her church songs. When she was living with us, there was a time both her feet turned black. Not 100% pitch black, but most of what was pretty dark. She said it was the side effects of the bleaching cream she was using. I'm now sure that was a lie. When she left to go to Nigeria, she stayed in my uncles house. During the middle of the night, one of my cousins woke up and went to the living room I believe and saw my Grandmother spreading blood on the floor. Needless to say she got kicked out of the villiage.
I understand if an athiest says that the occult is fake, but how can a Christian truly say that it is fake? Why would the bible tell us to stay away from the occult if it isn't even real? Does this mean that when the bible mentions people getting possessed by demons going blind and having epilepsy was making things up? Or the time when Saul consulted a spirit medium to talk to "Samuel" and ended up killing himself, Was this just a made up fantasy story so we can see the dangers of something that doesn't even exist? What about when Daniel prophesied to King Nebuchadnezzer? Were the rest of those magi priests all phonies? The King was unhappy and would've turned their houses into latrines. I'm sure if they never gave him any proof to believe that they were sorcerers of any kind, he would've turned their houses into latrines a long time ago.
I understand if an athiest says that the occult is fake, but how can a Christian truly say that it is fake? Why would the bible tell us to stay away from the occult if it isn't even real? Does this mean that when the bible mentions people getting possessed by demons going blind and having epilepsy was making things up? Or the time when Saul consulted a spirit medium to talk to "Samuel" and ended up killing himself, Was this just a made up fantasy story so we can see the dangers of something that doesn't even exist? What about when Daniel prophesied to King Nebuchadnezzer? Were the rest of those magi priests all phonies? The King was unhappy and would've turned their houses into latrines. I'm sure if they never gave him any proof to believe that they were sorcerers of any kind, he would've turned their houses into latrines a long time ago.
RiverJordan
Inactive
That's exactly what they are designed to test. With the Ouija board, the tests were specifically to test whether the "results" are due some unknown factor, or due to human manipulation. The results were unequivocal. Whatever "results" you get from a Ouija board are entirely from the people using it.
With the tarot cards, the experiments were designed specifically to test whether the "readings" they gave were distinguishable from randomly generated and assigned "readings". Once again the results were unequivocal. Whatever "readings" you get from tarot cards rely entirely on the power of suggestion and confirmation bias.
I'm surprised (and disappointed) to see people casually wave away objective testing in favor of YouTube videos. I can't believe you would use that as a basis for what's real.
RiverJordan
Inactive
Given that fundamentalists typically don't tolerate differing opinions, I figured this sort of reaction from you was inevitable. The others who were here when I first came here pretty much did the same thing.
And how is that done?
You didn't answer my question. Do you believe that one third of all the stars in the universe were swept to the surface of the earth by the tail of a dragon?
I never said anything about there not being angels.
Like others, you are waving away objective testing and favoring "testimonies" on YouTube (and now old Hollywood movies). That's exactly what confirmation bias is, and is exactly where the "power" of these things lie.
I wonder if you even realize just how much you're serving as a perfect demonstration of my point.
I've not used the word "liberal" here at all, so you're wrong. Plus, as I said I've seen many, many people driven away from Christianity by your fundamentalist, reality-denying, authoritarian beliefs.
If this is indeed the last time we interact, just as you recommend a Bible study course for me, I'll recommend you read up on the psychology of fundamentalism. Maybe then you'll realize just how much of what you think is Christianity is actually a projection of your own personality traits.
RiverJordan
Inactive
Because they are. The only effect they have is entirely dependent suggestion and confirmation bias.
What's the point of the first Commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me"? Why would God prohibit us from worshiping other gods if He is the only one?
The answer is obvious. By worshiping other gods or using a Ouija board, you're engaging in a spiritual activity that is outside of what God wants. Whether those things are real or work is irrelevant to the main point. Using the logic expressed by people here, the Biblical warning against worshiping other gods must therefore mean that other gods are real.
I don't believe anyone here said demons don't exist.
Did you ever think that maybe the point is "If you believe in these things, bad things will happen"?
Oh I'm quite sure the King believed it all.
Do you believe in the occult yes or no.
RiverJordan
Inactive
What do you mean "believe in the occult"? That's way too vague of a question.
Do you believe that humans are possible of interacting with spirits by means of rituals or whatever it takes to contact them? And once in contact, these spirits can have an influence in your life?
????? Answer the question. At what point in the manufacturing process is the "made to reach demons" function put in?
Gee, and there's absolutely no history at all of Revelations being misinterpreted, is there?
The verses right before that say, "Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth."
Do you believe that? Do you literally believe one third of all the stars in the universe were flung to the earth?
Sure, but no one here is rejecting scripture.
And one third of all the stars in the universe were swept to the earth.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. "YouTube testimonies"....right on par with objective testing. You really want to start basing your version of reality based on what people put on YouTube? Really?
But the fact that you apparently do that does explain a lot.
Rev 12
Actually, the bible is the standard. Reality just reconfirms it. The testimony in the "youtube" video happens to be the experiences of a professor of science who was also an Atheist at the time. Given those qualifications, his testimoney counts for something.
On the other hand, the "objective" test, in which you put all your trust in, are not a very good test at all. These test assumes that they can duplicate the genuine manifestation of the supernatural by command. That is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding of the occult. Those who practice occult like activity are just as deceived as those who do not believe in demons. Demons or fallen angels are sentient beings, smarter then you and I. If this is true, why would you assume that they would just manifest because some study you furnished pulled out a Ouija board?
MoG
RiverJordan
Inactive
Spirits? No.
RiverJordan
Inactive
But you're using YouTube videos to decide what "reality" is. That's extremely silly IMO.
It "counts" as exactly what it is....an anecdote. There are YouTube videos of people telling anecdotes of all sorts of things. Do you believe all of them?
So what you're saying is, Ouija boards only work when they're not being used under objectively controlled circumstances. I take you back to what I posted earlier...
I don't think you're appreciating what I'm talking about when I say "objectively controlled situations".
People claim these objects, spells, incantations, etc. "work" (they allow one to speak to spirits, predict the future, change behaviors or outcomes, etc.). We know from other established studies that humans are susceptible to the power of suggestion (placebo effect) and confirmation bias (placing more emphasis on successes than failures). So in order to find out if these objects, spells, incantations, etc. work, we control for the power of suggestion and confirmation bias, thereby minimizing their effect on the outcomes. And every single time we do that, they all fail.
Do you understand the significance of that? These things "work" only when suggestion and bias are not accounted for and fail every time they are accounted for.
That's about as clear and obvious an indication of what's behind these things as you can possibly hope for.
Glomung
Account Closed
RiverJordan - what you refuse to accept is that demons can and do affect objects and people.
They don't tend to do it under circumstances that would make it obvious even to agnostic observer that they exist.
They do their best work while making folks believe they don't exist.
Why would they show their hand when they can cause endless havoc from the shadows?
You attitude shows a complete ignorance and disregard of the actual situation.
They don't tend to do it under circumstances that would make it obvious even to agnostic observer that they exist.
They do their best work while making folks believe they don't exist.
Why would they show their hand when they can cause endless havoc from the shadows?
You attitude shows a complete ignorance and disregard of the actual situation.
Ok I mean't so say Demons, aka the fallen sons of the True God
I'm sorry about the sarcasm, its just hard for me to take anything regarding "demon possession" seriously. Show me a video of someone possessed who actually does things that a mentally ill person could not, and I will change my mind. I have heard too many stories of folks who refused to seek medical treatment for their child because they believed the child suffered from a spiritual malady, not a physical one. The child then goes without adequate care for what is usually a very treatable condition, and may die as a result. This is the sort of ignorance I can't stand, when people don't see that it isn't piety when you reject modern medicine on the behalf of someone else, but lethal insanity and murder by negligence.
RiverJordan
Inactive
Glomung and deeezbeats, you guys are missing the point. I didn't say demons don't exist or don't do anything. I said that things like Ouija boards, tarot cards, spells, incantations, etc. are ineffective. Could a Ouija board be used by a demon to influence a person? Sure, but no more so than a doorknob or Big Mac.
And that's my point. There's no more reason to fear or be suspicious of Ouija boards or tarot cards than there is of doorknobs or Big Macs. As soon as you start treating these things differently, you've given them power that they don't otherwise have. It's just like if I believe that every time I touch a doorknob, a demon is using it to enter my body, so I never touch doorknobs, campaign to get them banned, and tell everyone that doorknobs are evil. All that does is give an otherwise inert object a power over me that it never really had.
It's the same as what I said about the first Commandment earlier. God didn't tell us to not have any other gods before him because there really are other gods. He told us that because if we start worshiping another god, we would be giving an otherwise non-existent entity a power over ourselves (the power to move us away from God) that it never really had (because it doesn't exist).
And that's my point. There's no more reason to fear or be suspicious of Ouija boards or tarot cards than there is of doorknobs or Big Macs. As soon as you start treating these things differently, you've given them power that they don't otherwise have. It's just like if I believe that every time I touch a doorknob, a demon is using it to enter my body, so I never touch doorknobs, campaign to get them banned, and tell everyone that doorknobs are evil. All that does is give an otherwise inert object a power over me that it never really had.
It's the same as what I said about the first Commandment earlier. God didn't tell us to not have any other gods before him because there really are other gods. He told us that because if we start worshiping another god, we would be giving an otherwise non-existent entity a power over ourselves (the power to move us away from God) that it never really had (because it doesn't exist).
The term "occult" is such a broad term, I don't think it means quite what you think it means.
From dictionary.com: Occult: 1. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious
2. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.