What Do We Really Know About Our Beliefs?
- Thread starter followerofchrist72
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I'm with Banarenth on this. Granted, I'm no role model on this -- sometimes it can be easy to get snobby, but even with disagreements, but there's probably no pointing in doing or saying anything if it isn't done in charity.
I make this mistake many times too.
I make this mistake many times too.
RiverJordan
Inactive
What usually makes these sorts of discussions so testy is that the participants value different things and take different approaches, and as a result end up talking past each other.
Glomung seems to be more like me, in that I value objectivity, data, and accuracy.
No One and KJV seem to place more value on sanctity, loyalty, and faith.
So one side starts off with, "The data and the evidence show that..." and conclude with "therefore, the most logical and likely accurate conclusion is...", whereas the other side begins with "The Bible says..." and concludes with "therefore, I believe that....".
Personally, I have concluded that there was not a global flood (it was likely a local event, first recorded in The Epic of Gilgamesh), the Biblical lifespans were exaggerated (Babylonian Patriarchs were said to live to thousands of years old), and that overly focusing on whether or not such things are literally true 1) hurts the cause of saving the lost, and 2) misses the primary point of the stories.
Glomung seems to be more like me, in that I value objectivity, data, and accuracy.
No One and KJV seem to place more value on sanctity, loyalty, and faith.
So one side starts off with, "The data and the evidence show that..." and conclude with "therefore, the most logical and likely accurate conclusion is...", whereas the other side begins with "The Bible says..." and concludes with "therefore, I believe that....".
Personally, I have concluded that there was not a global flood (it was likely a local event, first recorded in The Epic of Gilgamesh), the Biblical lifespans were exaggerated (Babylonian Patriarchs were said to live to thousands of years old), and that overly focusing on whether or not such things are literally true 1) hurts the cause of saving the lost, and 2) misses the primary point of the stories.
I am a believer in pre flood tech. Understanding that the deluge was an earth wide event-like the bible says-is pivotal to our understanding of much scripture and the absolute power & mystery of our God.
Our misunderstanding of earth's true origin & history is a wedge between us and God. This is why evolution and 'dumb man' theory are preached in the indoctrination camps of the devil we call 'schools'.
All will be revealed to us at death and we will humble ourselves as fools before God in His majesty soon enough. What we ought to be more concerned about is getting out the Good News to folks who are going to hell.
But as Christian Brothers & Sisters I enjoy this type of debate. Unfortunately it also reveals fragmentation in the Body of Christ.
Our misunderstanding of earth's true origin & history is a wedge between us and God. This is why evolution and 'dumb man' theory are preached in the indoctrination camps of the devil we call 'schools'.
All will be revealed to us at death and we will humble ourselves as fools before God in His majesty soon enough. What we ought to be more concerned about is getting out the Good News to folks who are going to hell.
But as Christian Brothers & Sisters I enjoy this type of debate. Unfortunately it also reveals fragmentation in the Body of Christ.
RiverJordan
Inactive
And this is an increasingly major issue with trying to save young people today. Fundamentalist Christians grab the stage and shout that science and education are evil conspiracies by Satan and you have to choose between Christianity and education, because you can't have both.
Now that a secondary education is so important to one's economic success, more kids are going off to college and finding out that those creationist, anti-science, and anti-education arguments from the fundamentalists are wrong. And if that's mostly what they know about Christianity, a lot of them will just shrug their shoulders and never consider Christianity again.
This is a major factor in why YOUNG PEOPLE ARE LEAVING CHRISTIANITY IN DROVES.
Now that a secondary education is so important to one's economic success, more kids are going off to college and finding out that those creationist, anti-science, and anti-education arguments from the fundamentalists are wrong. And if that's mostly what they know about Christianity, a lot of them will just shrug their shoulders and never consider Christianity again.
This is a major factor in why YOUNG PEOPLE ARE LEAVING CHRISTIANITY IN DROVES.
Don’t worry: they were never Christians in the first place.
Do you still have the wrong opinion that huge numbers mean anything to God? They don’t. In fact He Himself told us that the majority of people will go to hell.
Moreover, the Bible warns about other things too. Not only Paul, but also Jesus - for example Matthew 7:21-23. So, if we’re not even prophesizing, or driving out demons, or making miracles, doesn’t that mean that our situation is even worse than of those fellows, who actually did something good for the people?
Do we do the will of our Father who is in heaven, or do we simply claim that we are Christians, and that’s it?
RiverJordan
Inactive
No one, I can feel the love you have for people from here. 
When I said don’t worry I meant you shouldn’t worry more than you already worry for an atheist, for example. I didn’t mean, in any amount, that we shouldn’t worry for anybody. But I have to admit that I have huge troubles trying to pray for people such as Dawkins - who willingly, aware, takes so many souls from God.
And you think wrong if you imagine that love is agreeing with everything that people say, even when they’re so obviously wrong…
And you think wrong if you imagine that love is agreeing with everything that people say, even when they’re so obviously wrong…
RiverJordan
Inactive
I have no idea why you bring up atheists and Dawkins. I'm talking about middle to high school age kids who are true seekers and are genuinely curious about Christianity. Telling them, "If you're a Christian, then you have to reject education, science, and technology" pushes most of them away, needlessly.
Your response of "Meh...whatevs" to that is extremely cold and uncaring.
Your response of "Meh...whatevs" to that is extremely cold and uncaring.
To name a few truths:
#1 The grand canyon is a result of the flood (Mt St Helens in 1980 confirmed this)
#2 The REAL geological column caused by hydrologic sorting not the textbook fairytale
#3 Mountains, oceans, seasons.
#4 Shells on top of mountains all over the world (LOTS of sea shells)
#5 Petrified trees through supposedly millions or billions of years worth of strata
#6 Dinosaur "Dead Pools" all over the planet
#7 Buried and underwater cities
#8 OOPARTS of all kinds-too many to list
#9 Over 150 Flood 'legends' world wide.
#10 The destruction of the 'firmament' above and below the earth's layers.
#11 Oxygen levels of the past suggest a severe change in atmosphere.
#12 Humans have a desire to deny God in any way they can-especially in their own logic and wisdom.
#13 The existence of Gas and Oil.
Most people are willing to accept that there was some sort of cataclysmic event in earth's past that 'made the dinosaurs go extinct'.
"Science" has many theories-probably the most popular is that an asteroid crashed to earth and extincted them and now we have coal and oil from the flora and fauna of the times. People are willing to accept that theory almost unquestionably. I find it interesting that elitist control throughout history has never changed. A small group of wealthy and powerful people control all the information to the masses and they are indoctrinated into the cultural believe system.
The Bible says it was a world wide flood-OH NO! We can't have that-that's a crazy religious conspiracy. So along with pumping up dinosaurs and redwoods; crude oil contains our human ancestors of the pre-flood era as well. But that's just 'crazy'! It is easier to believe the lie than the truth.
Christ and True Christianity have never had a 'place' in this world-neither has truth-because truth is from God. So we pile up all this 'scientific data' on top a web of lies from the beginning of time. Those whom hold the 'secret knowledge' conduct themselves in the darkness rather than those who are of the truth who live in the Light. Humans easily accept theory over truth because it is in our very sin nature to reject God. Or don't believe the Bible-it's your choice really. That's difference between following God and following the world's ways-the world doesn't give you a choice-thus when people step out to be God's children they are ostracized-and then God blesses them! Glory be to God!
Most people are willing to accept that there was some sort of cataclysmic event in earth's past that 'made the dinosaurs go extinct'.
"Science" has many theories-probably the most popular is that an asteroid crashed to earth and extincted them and now we have coal and oil from the flora and fauna of the times. People are willing to accept that theory almost unquestionably. I find it interesting that elitist control throughout history has never changed. A small group of wealthy and powerful people control all the information to the masses and they are indoctrinated into the cultural believe system.
The Bible says it was a world wide flood-OH NO! We can't have that-that's a crazy religious conspiracy. So along with pumping up dinosaurs and redwoods; crude oil contains our human ancestors of the pre-flood era as well. But that's just 'crazy'! It is easier to believe the lie than the truth.
Christ and True Christianity have never had a 'place' in this world-neither has truth-because truth is from God. So we pile up all this 'scientific data' on top a web of lies from the beginning of time. Those whom hold the 'secret knowledge' conduct themselves in the darkness rather than those who are of the truth who live in the Light. Humans easily accept theory over truth because it is in our very sin nature to reject God. Or don't believe the Bible-it's your choice really. That's difference between following God and following the world's ways-the world doesn't give you a choice-thus when people step out to be God's children they are ostracized-and then God blesses them! Glory be to God!
RiverJordan
Inactive
Mike,
What you posted is exactly what I'm talking about. Creationist organizations put out the arguments you listed and tell kids they have to believe them or they can't be Christians. Then when those kids go to school and find out they're all ridiculously wrong, they walk away from Christianity because they don't want to be associated with an anti-science movement that's based on falsehoods. Let me give you an example...
Why would any Christian want to associate such awful and clearly wrong arguments with Christianity and tell kids they have to choose between the two?
What you posted is exactly what I'm talking about. Creationist organizations put out the arguments you listed and tell kids they have to believe them or they can't be Christians. Then when those kids go to school and find out they're all ridiculously wrong, they walk away from Christianity because they don't want to be associated with an anti-science movement that's based on falsehoods. Let me give you an example...
The eruption of Mt. St. Helens caused the erosion of a "mini canyon" in the Toutle River valley. You know what the problem is with trying to compare that to the Grand Canyon? The Toutle River mini canyon was carved out of volcanic ash, whereas the Grand Canyon is solid rock (not to mention the fact that the Grand Canyon is about 100,000 times bigger). To understand the difference, think about filling half of your bathtub with ash from your fireplace and running water through it. Now do the same with a slab of granite. Think there's a difference? o_O
Why would any Christian want to associate such awful and clearly wrong arguments with Christianity and tell kids they have to choose between the two?
I have a problem with anyone who says or believes that if you believe in X or don't believe in Y then you can't be a Christian. Unless X and Y violate Jesus' work on the cross, then they are wrong. The Bible doesn't say anything regarding what we have to believe to be said save Christ crucified.
Um I have to call you on that one Ban...Apostle Paul made it very clear to the Galatians that they were foolish for believing in a false gospel led them not to obey the truth.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Jesus was lifted up so that we could believe in Him and be healed. 'Believing' means obeying His word through the Holy Spirit, and a host of other things that JESUS Himself spoke to us.
Jesus said' Repent and ..."Believe the Gospel". The gospel is far more than 'Jesus died for your sins'. If that was the case the Demons could jump for joy.
Jesus said that if you don't repent ye shall likewise perish...
Jesus said that 'you must be born again' and have the fruits of the Spirit to have Salvation.
He said that unless you eat and drink, you have no life in you...
He said that if you are lukewarm, you will be rejected...
Jesus said: Many receive the word with joy but later are offended and fall away, others-the Devil steals the word out of the hearts of some so they are not 'believers':
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Jesus said that and and a whole bunch of other things that most people today do not want to hear...and so they go away sorrowful because they have great possessions. I suggest that you be careful to preach the whole gospel of Salvation if you are going to admonish someone in what it means to 'believe'...
TC
So then, it is required to believe a specific set of things to be saved? Please show me the list of those things clearly mentioned in Scripture, because if they are that important, that we cannot be saved without accepting them, then they must certainly be listed carefully in Scripture.
Do you see my point? If there were such a list, then the Pharisees were right. That's what they wanted. That's what they were looking for. That's what they tried their best to enforce. They thought the list consisted of a very narrow interpretation of the Mosaic Laws. A list of rules is pointless.
In fact, since you pointed out Galatians, take a look at the warning that Galatians issued. Why was it written? Because people thought they needed to enforce a specific list of rules and laws to be saved. Galatians repeatedly teaches that is is the Gospel, Christ Crucified that saves, not adherence to a specific list of laws and rules that are utterly incapable of saving us.
Galatians 2 says "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!"
Where does it say that we must believe in something more that Christ? Show me where it says that if you believe that the Earth is flat, or that Dinosaurs once roamed the planet that you cannot be saved?
But since all the layers were still pliable and still settling after the flood the wash out would have been very effective. The great thing is we are all at liberty to believe what we want-it is all a matter of perspective. Have I condemned anyone for believing any different than I?
I would agree there is mass hypocrisy in what we see and say is the Body of Christ-Only Christ knows 100% who is and who is not in the the Body. Many will be called but few will answer; many will say in that day 'Lord, Lord! we sat at your table and prophesied in your Name' and He will say; I do not know.
I fear the Body of Christ is much smaller than we give statistics too because we take God's word for granted and we have this idea of "Buddy Christ" in our minds when the reality is we don't really consider His Holiness and apply it to our lives.
Frankly-I could care less about the Creationist versus Evolution debate anymore although I see it tearing our youth apart with confusion which IS a tactic of our enemy. Evolution teaches a purposeless existence and leads to new age trans-humanism ideas and lends to elitist mentalities like eugenics, genocide, racism, etc...
The world is and will to the end attempt to purge God from it so the 'Creation' (Environmentalist 'Green' movement / Mother Earth) can be worshiped rather than the Creator-our God. Don't get me wrong-I believe we need to be good stewards of the planet as God commanded us. But most 'humanitarian' organization have darker agendas like Bill Gates' population control agenda using third world vaccination programs and forced abortion programs. The naivety of the American people of what happens in the rest of the world astounds me; no matter how many witnesses come forward-people refuse to believe because we are rebellious critters.
John 14:26, Jesus said,
"I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness."
Matthew 5:19, Jesus said,
"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
(in fact, Matthew chapters 5 through 7 are many commands and laws and things to believe in, that are part of believing in Jesus. Jesus said so.
John 17:20, Jesus prays,
"“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."
People demonstrate their love for themselves and for Jesus by trying to become better at adhering to Jesus's commands. The New Testament is full of His commands.
James 1:27 says,
"Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."
2 John 1:5-6 reads,
"And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it."
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The solution to keep away from philosophy, which scripture warns us to keep away from, is to cast down imaginations [reasoning], and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God; and (instead] bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ, which can only be accomplished by the Word of God.
(Colossians 2:8)
(2 Corinthians 10:5)
(Colossians 2:8)
(2 Corinthians 10:5)
RiverJordan
Inactive
Except we know for a fact that the layers in the Grand Canyon were rock when they were eroded. I suggest if you're truly interested, you read up a bit on it from an actual legitimate geology source. Whatever creationist source you're using isn't telling you the truth.
While that's true, that doesn't mean all beliefs are equally valid, does it? Is the belief that the earth is flat equal to the belief that it's a sphere?
Yeah, pretty much. You referred to schools like the one I attend as "indoctrination camps of the devil". You also give the very strong impression that anyone who isn't a young earth creationist and doesn't subscribe to your conspiracy theories is "rejecting God".
I've been to both Mt. St. Helens and the Grand Canyon and examined their geologic formations. Anyone who tells you the two are at all similar and comparable is either deliberately lying to you, or is so ignorant of the facts they should be ignored. It's ridiculous and easily disproved arguments like this that when tied to Christianity, erodes the credibility of the faith and turns people away.
The Great Commission is not to make ridiculous arguments about the age of the earth; it's to help bring the lost to Christ.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Kids see that sort of goofy stuff spouted by Christians and they're like, "Um....yeah....I'm gonna go away now."