What do you think the relationship should be for Christians between faith and knowledge?

A couple of other thoughts:

Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding. (KJV)

Ps 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. (KJV)

In other words our healthy respect for God is the beginning of wisdom and as God changes our heart and mind this leads us to understanding which is doing as he commanded, to love God and one another.

cp
 
A couple of other thoughts:

Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding. (KJV)

Ps 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. (KJV)

In other words our healthy respect for God is the beginning of wisdom and as God changes our heart and mind this leads us to understanding which is doing as he commanded, to love God and one another.

cp
the book of proverbs is full of knowledge and wisdom
 
the book of proverbs is full of knowledge and wisdom

The whole Bible is filled with wisdom IMHO. God reveals a great deal to us his children. Knowledge and faith work together. As we walk in faith we gain understanding of God's way. Through faith God's word is opened up to us so that we can understand and gain in knowledge. To separate the two makes no sense because they are tied together.

cp
 
it certainly is but proverbs has plain every day wisdom in it


Proverbs are parables a narrative fiction that expresses a moral or religious lesson.. Other parbles use literal historacal to find the gospel understanding or mysteries .

Both comapre and Hide the underestanding from those without the spiritual understanding .( faith) Concealed from them. . . revealed to us the kingdom of Priest. . In seeing they see or belive not. in hearing they remain in ubelief or no understanding.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
 
Proverbs are parables a narrative fiction that expresses a moral or religious lesson.. Other parbles use literal historacal to find the gospel understanding or mysteries .

Both comapre and Hide the underestanding from those without the spiritual understanding .( faith) Concealed from them. . . revealed to us the kingdom of Priest. . In seeing they see or belive not. in hearing they remain in ubelief or no understanding.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Through God's Spirit we have understanding. As God reveals when he tells us that the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". Without the spirit we cannot understand God's words.

Prov 1:5-6 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: 6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. (KJV)

The book of Proverbs must be interpreted if we are to understand these words and dark sayings.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (KJV)

We can't interpret God's word on our own, we need God's Spirit to properly understand his words while this verse speaks of prophecy it also relates to all of God's words. As you say God has blinded mankind so that they cannot understand.

I'm not so sure that I would call the entire Book of Proverbs parables though. I do believe that Solomon and the other writers of the Proverbs where teaching literal sons and the children of Israel imagery is used in these instructions quite often though.

cp
 
Proverbs are parables a narrative fiction that expresses a moral or religious lesson.. Other parbles use literal historacal to find the gospel understanding or mysteries .

Both comapre and Hide the underestanding from those without the spiritual understanding .( faith) Concealed from them. . . revealed to us the kingdom of Priest. . In seeing they see or belive not. in hearing they remain in ubelief or no understanding.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
i hate to say this but your wrong
 
Through God's Spirit we have understanding. As God reveals when he tells us that the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". Without the spirit we cannot understand God's words.

Prov 1:5-6 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: 6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. (KJV)

The book of Proverbs must be interpreted if we are to understand these words and dark sayings.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (KJV)

We can't interpret God's word on our own, we need God's Spirit to properly understand his words while this verse speaks of prophecy it also relates to all of God's words. As you say God has blinded mankind so that they cannot understand.

I'm not so sure that I would call the entire Book of Proverbs parables though. I do believe that Solomon and the other writers of the Proverbs where teaching literal sons and the children of Israel imagery is used in these instructions quite often though.

cp

Hi thanks for the reply . (sorry for the rambling)

Not a salvation issue but I would think more how can we hear God not seen ? What are the tools need to seek his approval acording to the loving Conamnedemt (2 Timothy 2:15) .

One of the first things many says is .The bible is to confusing mysterious. ?Who could know what it says? Some are led I believe to search out the matter. .
I think parables and proverbs are used as a querry . . how and why the poetic tongue ? Why are they mixed with the literal historical interpretation ? How does a person search out the mustery? etc

It is interesting that we are informed in the new testement that without parables Christ spoke not..blinding some that say they see and making deaf those who say they hear his unseen understanding.

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

I would offfer I believe the Holy Spirit works in new born again creatures to both to will (ears to hear) the spiritual unseen understanding :and empower mankind to do his good pleasure opening the eyes of our new hearts . He desires we decreace as he increases in that way.

In the book of Philipians 2: 13-14 we are reminded not to murmur as did Jonas when he was draged to pring the gospel .Our ezanple of goal more like that of jeuses who delighted in doing the will of the Father

Parables hide mysteries . . . What would that mean? Should we search? Where, why (purpose), and how? Do they destroy the literal historical understanding or are they mixed with the literal ?

They would seem similar .Both interpret a dark word with hidden understanding. Like looking into a glass dark glass. . a partial understanding is discovered.

When walking in the light (understanding of faith) or what the bible calls “mixing faith” the mystery is revealed. Like the proverb. . the glory of God to conceal the understanding the privedge to a kingdom of priest (Christians) to search it out.

Helping to reveal the light of faith Christ's light in us. It is something I would give you honor, you have a great way of expressing it in your writtings.

Dark and light seem to be used that way to either hide the glory or when understand reveal the hidden manna. In that way dark is never called good.

Job 29:3 When his candle shined upon my head, and when by his light I walked through darkness;

Psalm 49:4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

Below the interpretation of the dark saying is considered the "wisdom of God "

Proverbs 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

The spiritual (faith to faith) unseen understanding spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:also refered to as face to face.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Many times Jesus would speak a parable and hide the understanding. Sometimes a whole series all working the same conclusion , that way we “walk by faith” or “walk in the light “.

Parables teach us how to walk by faith the eternal not seen in that way and not by sight the temporal.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 
Not a salvation issue but I would think more how can we hear God not seen ? What are the tools need to seek his approval acording to the loving Conamnedemt (2 Timothy 2:15) .

One of the first things many says is .The bible is to confusing mysterious. ?Who could know what it says? Some are led I believe to search out the matter. .
I think parables and proverbs are used as a querry . . how and why the poetic tongue ? Why are they mixed with the literal historical interpretation ? How does a person search out the mustery? etc

It is interesting that we are informed in the new testement that without parables Christ spoke not..blinding some that say they see and making deaf those who say they hear his unseen understanding.

It looks like we are in basic agreement. I just didn't understand fully what you had said earlier. I agree that Proverbs and much of the Bible mixes imagery with the literal examples, as Christ did.

The Israelites had only a shadow of understanding because God had not revealed his plan yet to his people. God did not tell his people the meaning behind the Holy Days, such as Passover, nor the future significance of animal sacrifice. Though there was a literal event that occurred on the night of Passover when God protected Israel from the death that was brought to all household firstborns. God's avenging angel passed over their homes. The people were covered under god's protection.

Thanks for your clarification
 
Aside from the relationship between faith and knowledge, rather than debating or speculating which one is more important or which one comes first, 1 Corinthians 13:2 tells us

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
 
Thank you for your feed back on the original them of this thread: the relationship between knowing and believing. The context of this question is that I am surrounded by a culture who tends to oppose knowing to believing as if those who believe in Jesus Christ for their personal Savior have no basis. Some people with whom I worked through the years respected me for who I was in the context of the services I rendered to them a part of my work. They also knew that I was a Cristian, and to some of them, that was a puzzle. How can this guy whom I know and respect buy into pure belief.

My answer to this quandary is that my faith although it comes from the Spirit and is not available to unaided human beings is still not without foundations. Whereas natural sciences rely on observation and experimentation to gain knowledge, we Christians believe that the Bible is also a source of knowledge.

It has become impossible for me to not believe what the prophets and apostles tell me in the pages of the Word of God. So from this I began to know about God, and somehow throughout this process the Spirit of God enabled me to receive the truth about who God is, who Jesus is, and also who I truly am.

God bless you all!

Hello Daniel;

What you are sharing is hard work and this is expected from the Great Commission and evangelism. We're all in the same ministry so I will personally include you in my prayers for your community and culture.

Part of what you do is going to raise questions and doubts with the good people you share knowing and believing as well as yourself. In other words, it may take time for others to understand your faith and why you believe what you believe. At times you will raise questions about your personal faith as well.

We all need to remember that we plant the seed, God will water it.

We're in the people business,
Daniel, and this means the foundation of their faith, the discipline to pray and the habit of reading the Word may develop at different paces with each unique individual.

None of us who desire to bring others to Christ is not going to master this. We will get better the more we serve the Lord in our witness to others, but only because His continued work within us keeps us going, if we will not faint.

I watched your video. Stay on track with your personal growth, study and hard knocks experience. Keep doing what you're doing.

God bless
you for that, Daniel.
 
What do you think the relationship should be for Christians between faith and knowledge?
The Christian Faith is based on Knowledge, but its source is in the most part not recognized by society at large.
I take it that faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's Word. (Rom 10:17).

We first hear that we have all sinned and have fallen short of God's glory (it doesn't take much faith to see that) but it takes the conviction of God's Spirit. John 16:8

To your last point I posted above, once a person is obedient to the fact
that they are a sinner, I believe it takes an inward knowledge (revelation) from God's Spirit to reveal His Son as Savior. Mt 16:17...
Matthew 16:17 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I hope this touches on a gist of your point.

And yes, though the natural man may have a 'knowledge of' God, because he lacks the new birth, he does not know him experientially.
 
My answer to this quandary is that my faith although it comes from the Spirit and is not available to unaided human beings is still not without foundations. Whereas natural sciences rely on observation and experimentation to gain knowledge, we Christians believe that the Bible is also a source of knowledge.
The scientist (as also the natural man) relies on the eyegate whereas the man of faith relies on the eargate.

Hebrews 11:3 (KJV) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
 
For me, knowledge is a collection of facts (true or assumed).
Processing those facts can either lead us away from God as we become more concerned with our thoughts and how we are handling those facts, or they can lead us to a greater appreciation of God.

Sometimes we ( I ) need to step back and be less analytical.

I came across the following this week:
______

So by turning off the analytical part of our brains, we may have fruitful insights, and remarkable inspiration. More importantly, we will be better able to know God. If we submit to him, the Holy Spirit can reconfigure our neural networks. We are created as whole beings and need to remember that all things, our minds, brains, hearts, souls and bodies, our cingulate gyri, mitral valves, zygomatic arches, Golgi apparatus, Eustachian tubes, left femoral arteries, baby toes—all things cohere in Christ.

So by turning off the analytical part of our brains, we may have fruitful insights, and remarkable inspiration. More importantly, we will be better able to know God. If we submit to him, the Holy Spirit can reconfigure our neural networks. We are created as whole beings and need to remember that all things, our minds, brains, hearts, souls and bodies, our cingulate gyri, mitral valves, zygomatic arches, Golgi apparatus, Eustachian tubes, left femoral arteries, baby toes—all things cohere in Christ.
_______________
From
On Grass that Withers: Overloaded brains and spiritual discernment
By Janet Warren (God and Nature,Summer 2014, Reprinted Winter 2021 )*


Permission has been received to post ASA materials provided that I provide a link back so readers may view the source. If the Moderators would like to view the letter, I will provide it.
 
For me, knowledge is a collection of facts (true or assumed).
Processing those facts can either lead us away from God as we become more concerned with our thoughts and how we are handling those facts, or they can lead us to a greater appreciation of God.

Sometimes we ( I ) need to step back and be less analytical.

I came across the following this week:
______

So by turning off the analytical part of our brains, we may have fruitful insights, and remarkable inspiration. More importantly, we will be better able to know God. If we submit to him, the Holy Spirit can reconfigure our neural networks. We are created as whole beings and need to remember that all things, our minds, brains, hearts, souls and bodies, our cingulate gyri, mitral valves, zygomatic arches, Golgi apparatus, Eustachian tubes, left femoral arteries, baby toes—all things cohere in Christ.

So by turning off the analytical part of our brains, we may have fruitful insights, and remarkable inspiration. More importantly, we will be better able to know God. If we submit to him, the Holy Spirit can reconfigure our neural networks. We are created as whole beings and need to remember that all things, our minds, brains, hearts, souls and bodies, our cingulate gyri, mitral valves, zygomatic arches, Golgi apparatus, Eustachian tubes, left femoral arteries, baby toes—all things cohere in Christ.
_______________
From
On Grass that Withers: Overloaded brains and spiritual discernment
By Janet Warren (God and Nature,Summer 2014, Reprinted Winter 2021 )*


Permission has been received to post ASA materials provided that I provide a link back so readers may view the source. If the Moderators would like to view the letter, I will provide it.
Loved that link Siloam Thankyou.
 
I take it that faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's Word. (Rom 10:17).
We first hear that we have all sinned and have fallen short of God's glory (it doesn't take much faith to see that) but it takes the conviction of God's Spirit. John 16:8
To your last point I posted above, once a person is obedient to the fact that they are a sinner, I believe it takes an inward knowledge (revelation) from God's Spirit to reveal His Son as Savior. Mt 16:17...Matthew 16:17 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
I hope this touches on a gist of your point.
And yes, though the natural man may have a 'knowledge of' God, because he lacks the new birth, he does not know him experientially.

For me, knowledge is a collection of facts (true or assumed). Processing those facts can either lead us away from God as we become more concerned with our thoughts and how we are handling those facts, or they can lead us to a greater appreciation of God. Sometimes we ( I ) need to step back and be less analytical.

So by turning off the analytical part of our brains, we may have fruitful insights, and remarkable inspiration. More importantly, we will be better able to know God. If we submit to him, the Holy Spirit can reconfigure our neural networks.
We are created as whole beings and need to remember that all things, our minds, brains, hearts, souls and bodies, our cingulate gyri, mitral valves, zygomatic arches, Golgi apparatus, Eustachian tubes, left femoral arteries, baby toes—all things cohere in Christ.

Hello crossnote and Siloam;

I enjoyed your posts and what spoke to me is the process, inward knowledge, reconfigure, submission and obedience.

God bless you, brothers, and thank you for sharing.
 
Hello Daniel;

What you are sharing is hard work and this is expected from the Great Commission and evangelism. We're all in the same ministry so I will personally include you in my prayers for your community and culture.

Part of what you do is going to raise questions and doubts with the good people you share knowing and believing as well as yourself. In other words, it may take time for others to understand your faith and why you believe what you believe. At times you will raise questions about your personal faith as well.

We all need to remember that we plant the seed, God will water it.

We're in the people business,
Daniel, and this means the foundation of their faith, the discipline to pray and the habit of reading the Word may develop at different paces with each unique individual.

None of us who desire to bring others to Christ is not going to master this. We will get better the more we serve the Lord in our witness to others, but only because His continued work within us keeps us going, if we will not faint.

I watched your video. Stay on track with your personal growth, study and hard knocks experience. Keep doing what you're doing.

God bless
you for that, Daniel.
Well, thank you Bobinfaith, for praying about this ministry of Savoir et croire .ca (knowing and believing), and for your encouragements.
 
Hello,

What do you think the relationship should be for Christians between faith and knowledge? A decade ago or so I became concerned with the consensus that appeared to be dominating the medias and the general culture. Believers rely on "belief", and learned people on "knowledge". It was as if one either believed or knew. This led me to express myself in the following manner about this topic : The Christian Faith is based on Knowledge, but its source is in the most part not recognized by society at large.

This morning I published a video titled Knowing and Believing -- a Christian Perspective, where I touch up on this subject. Feel free to provide your input here on that topic.

God bless you all.
The relationship between faith and knowledge is symbiotic. Knowledge, coupled with experience, reinforces faith, and faith enhances knowledge. They are mutually dependent.
 
For me, knowledge is a collection of facts (true or assumed).
Processing those facts can either lead us away from God as we become more concerned with our thoughts and how we are handling those facts, or they can lead us to a greater appreciation of God.

Sometimes we ( I ) need to step back and be less analytical.

I came across the following this week:
______

So by turning off the analytical part of our brains, we may have fruitful insights, and remarkable inspiration. More importantly, we will be better able to know God. If we submit to him, the Holy Spirit can reconfigure our neural networks. We are created as whole beings and need to remember that all things, our minds, brains, hearts, souls and bodies, our cingulate gyri, mitral valves, zygomatic arches, Golgi apparatus, Eustachian tubes, left femoral arteries, baby toes—all things cohere in Christ.

So by turning off the analytical part of our brains, we may have fruitful insights, and remarkable inspiration. More importantly, we will be better able to know God. If we submit to him, the Holy Spirit can reconfigure our neural networks. We are created as whole beings and need to remember that all things, our minds, brains, hearts, souls and bodies, our cingulate gyri, mitral valves, zygomatic arches, Golgi apparatus, Eustachian tubes, left femoral arteries, baby toes—all things cohere in Christ.
_______________
From
On Grass that Withers: Overloaded brains and spiritual discernment
By Janet Warren (God and Nature,Summer 2014, Reprinted Winter 2021 )*


Permission has been received to post ASA materials provided that I provide a link back so readers may view the source. If the Moderators would like to view the letter, I will provide it.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you

I would offer, adding. let the mind of Christ dwell in us richly. For his thoughts are not ours and neither are his ways ours .He is not a man. . In that way parables help teach us how to walk or understand God by and through that kind of faith hidden from natural unconverted mankind .
We must learn to "mix faith" if we want to understand the mystires revealed . . if we have a desire to know his mind.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
 
Back
Top