What does Paul admonish about women not permitted to teach mean to us today then?

[bobinfaith]

Why is Greek important?

This is what came up when I asked for Greek translation of Romans 16:1-2: "In Romans 16, Paul commends Phoebe to the believers in Rome, referring to her as "our sister" and "a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea". The Greek text for this verse is "Sunistemi (4921) (1SPAI) de humin phoiben ten adelphen hemon," which translates to "I commend to you our sister Phoebe".

I'm confused : )

Major said:
Again........It does not matter in the least what the situation is or was. It is not Biblical!
Her father in that case did not teach his daughter correctly and he also did not teach his congregation correctly either.
IN all of my career, I never had one single woman approach me or the church requesting to be or asking information about being a deacon. They knew what the Bible said so they knew that there was no reason to ask.
BibleLover Answered: "Check Romans 16:1-2 in the Greek. Phoebe is called a deaconess."
I looked up the Greek translation and could not find anything about "deaconess" and then asked what Greek had to do with things? So often Latin and Greek are quoted, instead of Hebrew?

Hi Yesua,

That is an important question. You see the New testament was written in Greek, so we need to go that language to find out the proper meaning. Just taking the English can lead to trouble and error. Let me explain.

If we just take the translators word on 1Tim. 2: 11 `Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.` then a woman in a gathering cannot sing, pray or read out loud or give a testimony or any such speaking out loud. And that of course if nonsense. You see often those who translated God`s word from the Greek language were influenced by their beliefs. And in this case we see that the translator/s believed that women should not be speaking or sharing in a gathering and only men were the ones to impart anything about God`s word.

But if we look at the meaning of the Greek word we see that the Holy Spirit was saying through Paul that women were not to be meddlesome, or get undisturbed, but to keep their seat. Obviously some women were being disruptive.

And then in the next verse the right translation is not that women can`t teach, but that they are not to dominate or usurp authority that the Holy Spirit has not given them. Women do have a tendency to be `bossy`and many like to dominate and take charge. This is not to be but they need to work in a `team` with others. Even a man is not to `lord it over `others, which is very common today with the one leader model.

So we see that the translators have brought in their own wrong beliefs and that has caused great hardship for many and a domineering approach by many men over women. However, praise the Lord many men are Holy Spirit led and work alongside the women in fulfilling the Lord`s command to make disciples......

Hello Yusua888 and Marilyn;

I am blessed by the manner you both and everyone has displayed in this profound and difficult subject, that has been going on since Paul's letter (prior and after) in the early days of the Church.

I'm curious, Linda, when you mentioned "in all of your career," are you referring to your ministry?

Marilyn, I know you have taught various Bible studies and Biblical time graphics and here at CFS.

One day my wife and I plan to visit Australia and would love to attend both your Churches there.

Here at home in SF Bay Area's Church community, I have to honest, we have Churches that dismiss the Scriptures pertaining to this conversation and proceed to do what they want.

God bless you, both and everyone.

Bob

 

[Yesua888]

Similiar situation to this female named in the NT
In the New Testament, Junia is a woman mentioned in Romans 16:7. She is identified as a relative or compatriot of Paul, a fellow prisoner, and is described as "prominent among the apostles". Some interpretations suggest she was an apostle herself, while others debate whether the name should be translated as the masculine "Junias". Regardless of the debate, she is recognized for her significant role and ministry in the early church.

As those of us who do see God princple being Male leadership and spiritual authority in local churches would see her as being among and with the Apostles, while others would see her as being actual Apostle

Not Mary Magdalene? Are there Bible verses on this? thanks Linda

 

[Yesua888]

Hi Yesua,

That is an important question. You see the New testament was written in Greek, so we need to go that language to find out the proper meaning. Just taking the English can lead to trouble and error. Let me explain.

If we just take the translators word on 1Tim. 2: 11 `Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.` then a woman in a gathering cannot sing, pray or read out loud or give a testimony or any such speaking out loud. And that of course if nonsense. You see often those who translated God`s word from the Greek language were influenced by their beliefs. And in this case we see that the translator/s believed that women should not be speaking or sharing in a gathering and only men were the ones to impart anything about God`s word.

But if we look at the meaning of the Greek word we see that the Holy Spirit was saying through Paul that women were not to be meddlesome, or get undisturbed, but to keep their seat. Obviously some women were being disruptive.

And then in the next verse the right translation is not that women can`t teach, but that they are not to dominate or usurp authority that the Holy Spirit has not given them. Women do have a tendency to be `bossy`and many like to dominate and take charge. This is not to be but they need to work in a `team` with others. Even a man is not to `lord it over `others, which is very common today with the one leader model.

So we see that the translators have brought in their own wrong beliefs and that has caused great hardship for many and a domineering approach by many men over women. However, praise the Lord many men are Holy Spirit led and work alongside the women in fulfilling the Lord`s command to make disciples......

Marilyn C,

Thank You so much : )

Your answers and explanations are exactly what I needed, as the "women" and "slaves" verses have not sat well with me, and quite frankly have given led me to make so many assumptions, usually negative. I have always wondered why Christians say very strongly, that ALL of the Bible is God inspired therefore 100% ...

Your explanation has completely changed things for me, and set me free ... it's given me the peace I need, around trusting ALL of the Bible, at face value.

I was also not aware that the NT was written in Greek

Simply and eloquently explained

Yes, the thought went through my head last night (must have been Holy Spirit talking : ), that women are generally troublesome, where men in comparison, are generally relaxed around emotional or political issues. Women get fa too fired up at times; we need that Balance, we need each other : )

Thanks Sister in Christ, Linda

 

[Yesua888]

Hello Yusua888 and Marilyn;

I am blessed by the manner you both and everyone has displayed in this profound and difficult subject, that has been going on since Paul's letter (prior and after) in the early days of the Church.

I'm curious, Linda, when you mentioned "in all of your career," are you referring to your ministry?

Marilyn, I know you have taught various Bible studies and Biblical time graphics and here at CFS.

One day my wife and I plan to visit Australia and would love to attend both your Churches there.

Here at home in SF Bay Area's Church community, I have to honest, we have Churches that dismiss the Scriptures pertaining to this conversation and proceed to do what they want.

God bless you, both and everyone.

Bob

Hi Brother Bob,

I think you misunderstood my Quote:
"Major said:
Again........It does not matter in the least what the situation is or was. It is not Biblical!
Her father in that case did not teach his daughter correctly and he also did not teach his congregation correctly either.
IN all of my career, I never had one single woman approach me or the church requesting to be or asking information about being a deacon. They knew what the Bible said so they knew that there was no reason to ask."
I was trying to explain someone else's question of me around the need for Greek (and Latin) translations, and Marilyn has so eloquently answered that for me : )
Things can get complicated when we go back and forth asking and answering each other ...
My career is "architecture" ... I was very different to my colleagues (retired now)
I do not belong to a formal "Church", and rely on my "Church" within, Bible Studies and the Forums : )
However, I am open to finding the right church (it would be wonderful). My hubby is an amazing man who has higher morals and ethical principals than most, however, he is not convinced about the Truth of the Bible (by culture and belief's in the "church"). He often hears the videos that I watch, on Christ, archaeological findings backing up Biblical Truth and so on. We have watched the Passion and The Chosen together. I never push him, as God does not push us : ) A lovely South Africa saying"slowly slowly catch a monkey" (quite self explanatory really : )
Please let me know when you will be visiting Australia, because our Door is Open to you.
We live in Northern Rivers, New South Wales, and if you hear of a church that is not too conventional and actually Speaks Jesus, please let me know.
The man who baptised me three years ago, is an ex Qantas Pilot, Cpt Graham Hood (you could look him up if you have not heard of him). He and his Wife Michelle, are involved in a church somewhere in the Northern Rivers (Church Without Walls). However, they are very private people, and unless you are a member of Fbk, it is difficult to track them.

Thanks again, Brother, it is always good to chat with you, Linda

 

[bobinfaith]

Hi Brother Bob,

I think you misunderstood my Quote:
"Major said:
Again........It does not matter in the least what the situation is or was. It is not Biblical!
Her father in that case did not teach his daughter correctly and he also did not teach his congregation correctly either.
IN all of my career, I never had one single woman approach me or the church requesting to be or asking information about being a deacon. They knew what the Bible said so they knew that there was no reason to ask."
I was trying to explain someone else's question of me around the need for Greek (and Latin) translations, and Marilyn has so eloquently answered that for me : )
Things can get complicated when we go back and forth asking and answering each other ...
My career is "architecture" ... I was very different to my colleagues (retired now)
I do not belong to a formal "Church", and rely on my "Church" within, Bible Studies and the Forums : )
However, I am open to finding the right church (it would be wonderful). My hubby is an amazing man who has higher morals and ethical principals than most, however, he is not convinced about the Truth of the Bible (by culture and belief's in the "church"). He often hears the videos that I watch, on Christ, archaeological findings backing up Biblical Truth and so on. We have watched the Passion and The Chosen together. I never push him, as God does not push us : ) A lovely South Africa saying"slowly slowly catch a monkey" (quite self explanatory really : )
Please let me know when you will be visiting Australia, because our Door is Open to you.
We live in Northern Rivers, New South Wales, and if you hear of a church that is not too conventional and actually Speaks Jesus, please let me know.
The man who baptised me three years ago, is an ex Qantas Pilot, Cpt Graham Hood (you could look him up if you have not heard of him). He and his Wife Michelle, are involved in a church somewhere in the Northern Rivers (Church Without Walls). However, they are very private people, and unless you are a member of Fbk, it is difficult to track them.

Thanks again, Brother, it is always good to chat with you, Linda

Hello Yeshua888;

I see. So it was Major who quoted, "IN all of my career, I never had one single woman approach me or the church requesting to be or asking information about being a deacon. They knew what the Bible said so they knew that there was no reason to ask."

Thank you for clarifying. That sounds like our Major and I know he's been in the Pastoral ministry for 50 years.

This reminded me of 11 years ago; A young woman in our Church asked me about serving in Children's Ministry. This was the first time a woman in the Church asked me about serving in any ministry. Then she gave me a Children's Ministry Plan sort of like a "business plan." I was so impressed but I still needed to seek what God said, first.

After speaking to the pastoral staff we agreed to have her lead our children, one step at a time. This wasn't a deaconess role but in time added her to the leadership in our Church.

She did a wonderful ministry, it felt right and many of our children were taught the fundamentals of Christ beside the fun activities she led, like VBS (Vacation Bible School) and taking the kids to the zoo, Christmas party, etc..

New South Wales is in Sydney, right? Or the other way around. Sydney, Brisbane is on our list to visit because it's closer to New Zealand, the other country to visit the same time on our list.

God bless you, Linda.

Bob

 

[Yesua888]

Hello Yeshua888;

I see. So it was Major who quoted, "IN all of my career, I never had one single woman approach me or the church requesting to be or asking information about being a deacon. They knew what the Bible said so they knew that there was no reason to ask."

Thank you for clarifying. That sounds like our Major and I know he's been in the Pastoral ministry for 50 years.

This reminded me of 11 years ago; A young woman in our Church asked me about serving in Children's Ministry. This was the first time a woman in the Church asked me about serving in any ministry. Then she gave me a Children's Ministry Plan sort of like a "business plan." I was so impressed but I still needed to seek what God said, first.

After speaking to the pastoral staff we agreed to have her lead our children, one step at a time. This wasn't a deaconess role but in time added her to the leadership in our Church.

She did a wonderful ministry, it felt right and many of our children were taught the fundamentals of Christ beside the fun activities she led, like VBS (Vacation Bible School) and taking the kids to the zoo, Christmas party, etc..

New South Wales is in Sydney, right? Or the other way around. Sydney, Brisbane is on our list to visit because it's closer to New Zealand, the other country to visit the same time on our list.

God bless you, Linda.

Bob

Hi Bob,
Yes, Sydney is in New South Wale (NSW), and Brisbane in Queensland (Qld). We are 2 1/2 hrs south of Brisbane. You will most likely be travelling by plane : )
Blessings, Linda

 

[YeshuaFan]

Hi Yesua,

That is an important question. You see the New testament was written in Greek, so we need to go that language to find out the proper meaning. Just taking the English can lead to trouble and error. Let me explain.

If we just take the translators word on 1Tim. 2: 11 `Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.` then a woman in a gathering cannot sing, pray or read out loud or give a testimony or any such speaking out loud. And that of course if nonsense. You see often those who translated God`s word from the Greek language were influenced by their beliefs. And in this case we see that the translator/s believed that women should not be speaking or sharing in a gathering and only men were the ones to impart anything about God`s word.

But if we look at the meaning of the Greek word we see that the Holy Spirit was saying through Paul that women were not to be meddlesome, or get undisturbed, but to keep their seat. Obviously some women were being disruptive.

And then in the next verse the right translation is not that women can`t teach, but that they are not to dominate or usurp authority that the Holy Spirit has not given them. Women do have a tendency to be `bossy`and many like to dominate and take charge. This is not to be but they need to work in a `team` with others. Even a man is not to `lord it over `others, which is very common today with the one leader model.

So we see that the translators have brought in their own wrong beliefs and that has caused great hardship for many and a domineering approach by many men over women. However, praise the Lord many men are Holy Spirit led and work alongside the women in fulfilling the Lord`s command to make disciples......

The bible though clesrly defines to us the roles and position for men and women within the local assemblies, and the pattern seemed to be male leadership functioning in the assigned roles of the Pastors and Elders as male

 

[Major]

Why is Greek important?

This is what came up when I asked for Greek translation of Romans 16:1-2: "In Romans 16, Paul commends Phoebe to the believers in Rome, referring to her as "our sister" and "a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea". The Greek text for this verse is "Sunistemi (4921) (1SPAI) de humin phoiben ten adelphen hemon," which translates to "I commend to you our sister Phoebe".

I'm confused : )

Having a working understanding of Greek and Hebrew allows you to grasp what the original intent was of the writer as words have different meanings. ONE word can mean several different things.

Consider the simple word LOVE in the Greek. It can mean 8 diffeent levals.
1. Pragma,
2. Storge,
3. Eros,
4. Ludus,
5. Mania,
6. Philautia,
7. Agape and
8. Meraki.

Consider the word YOM in Hebrew in Genesis 1. I can refer to at least five different times.
1. The period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness),
2. The period of twenty-four hours,
3. A general vague "time,"
4. A point of time,
5. A year.

CONTEXT of the surrounding Scriptures determines the actual meaning.

Now.....in reality, does it pay to know Gree??? ONLY if you live in Greece!!!!!!
I have to this day never spoken to anyone in Greek. So did they have any actual real purpose, not really. Only in that I can say........."
"In the Original Greek" which sends a message that I know more than you which I do not!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Having a working understanding of Greek and Hebrew allows you to grasp what the original intent was of the writer as words have different meanings. ONE word can mean several different things.

Consider the simple word LOVE in the Greek. It can mean 8 diffeent levals.
1. Pragma,
2. Storge,
3. Eros,
4. Ludus,
5. Mania,
6. Philautia,
7. Agape and
8. Meraki.

Consider the word YOM in Hebrew in Genesis 1. I can refer to at least five different times.
1. The period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness),
2. The period of twenty-four hours,
3. A general vague "time,"
4. A point of time,
5. A year.

CONTEXT of the surrounding Scriptures determines the actual meaning.

Now.....in reality, does it pay to know Gree??? ONLY if you live in Greece!!!!!!
I have to this day never spoken to anyone in Greek. So did they have any actual real purpose, not really. Only in that I can say........."
"In the Original Greek" which sends a message that I know more than you which I do not!

My senior pastor has 2 Phd went to DTS, had 5 years geek and Hebrew, reads daily in both Greek and Hebrew texts, and he stated that one of his profs stated that after 5 years of those studies, enough to be now dangerous in misunderstanding the bible, as need a good 10 yeras before able to launch out on their "independent studies"

 

[BibleLover]

Having a working understanding of Greek and Hebrew allows you to grasp what the original intent was of the writer as words have different meanings. ONE word can mean several different things.

Consider the simple word LOVE in the Greek. It can mean 8 diffeent levals.
1. Pragma,
2. Storge,
3. Eros,
4. Ludus,
5. Mania,
6. Philautia,
7. Agape and
8. Meraki.

Consider the word YOM in Hebrew in Genesis 1. I can refer to at least five different times.
1. The period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness),
2. The period of twenty-four hours,
3. A general vague "time,"
4. A point of time,
5. A year.

CONTEXT of the surrounding Scriptures determines the actual meaning.

Now.....in reality, does it pay to know Gree??? ONLY if you live in Greece!!!!!!
I have to this day never spoken to anyone in Greek. So did they have any actual real purpose, not really. Only in that I can say........."
"In the Original Greek" which sends a message that I know more than you which I do not!

I spent a year in Greece and learned modern Greek to get around the country. If somebody learned biblical Greek and went to Greece today, no one would understand anything being said because ancient Greek is as far removed modern Greek as Old English is from Modern English. Try reading "Beowulf" in the original language and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Origen]

I spent a year in Greece and learned modern Greek to get around the country. If somebody learned biblical Greek and went to Greece today, no one would understand anything being said because ancient Greek is as far removed modern Greek as Old English is from Modern English. Try reading "Beowulf" in the original language and you'll see what I mean.

EXACTLY!!! Koine Greek and modern Greek are not the same animal.

 

[Major]

I spent a year in Greece and learned modern Greek to get around the country. If somebody learned biblical Greek and went to Greece today, no one would understand anything being said because ancient Greek is as far removed modern Greek as Old English is from Modern English. Try reading "Beowulf" in the original language and you'll see what I mean.

LOL!

Agreed 100%! I have stated this a couple of times now, I just like you had to take Greek in Seminary but I hated it and have never used it.

 

[Major]

EXACTLY!!! Koine Greek and modern Greek are not the same animal.

Yes sir. Koine, Greek 201-497 is what is taught at Liberty University. I needed a 600. Good thing it was not 601!

 

[Major]

My senior pastor has 2 Phd went to DTS, had 5 years geek and Hebrew, reads daily in both Greek and Hebrew texts, and he stated that one of his profs stated that after 5 years of those studies, enough to be now dangerous in misunderstanding the bible, as need a good 10 yeras before able to launch out on their "independent studies"

Now, just for converstion sake, and for your information..........what many don’t realize is that four of the five men on the translation committee producing the complete New Word Translation for the Jehovah Witnesses cult, had no Hebrew or Greek training whatsoever.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Now, just for converstion sake, and for your information..........what many don’t realize is that four of the five men on the translation committee producing the complete New Word Translation for the Jehovah Witnesses cult, had no Hebrew or Greek training whatsoever.

Joseph Smith when he did his "inspired revision" Kjv had even less than that knowledge

 

[Major]

Joseph Smith when he did his "inspired revision" Kjv had even less than that knowledge

He had about a 7th grade education.

In His "Book of Mormon", Joseph Smith created the story of Nephi and Laban by plagiarizing concepts and phrases from the story of Judith and Holofernes in the Apocrypha.

Then the truth is that Joseph Smith developed his story of visits by Moroni and the translation of a sacred book from The Golden Pot, a book by German author E.T.A. Hoffmann.
Source: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org...oseph-smiths-plagiarism-in-the-book-of-mormon

On top of that, Joseph Smith plagiarized Josiah Priest’s The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed in order to write portions of The Book of Mormon. Critics also claim that Joseph Smith plagiarized Shakespeare.