What is the real value of scripture?

[GBzone]

There was a time when very few Protestant ministers had any correct Biblical knowledge. They were wonderful men who felt the call of God to preach but simply did not have any education to speak of. They sound good but many times said the wrong things that that still leads to vain debates today within the church of God.

The problem is not that they did not have the enthousiasm for God but that they tended to preach what THEY thought and many times that was simply wrong.

What time was this?!
I would say that it is TODAY many pulpits are filled with hirelings and men who know not the truth and what you accuse of them should be more applied today.
if you have a true pastor called of God and anointed By God to "do the work of THE ministry " you should thank almighty God for them and pray for them earnestly .

In Christ
gerald

in Christ
gerald

 

[Major]

What time was this?!
I would say that it is TODAY many pulpits are filled with hirelings and men who know not the truth and what you accuse of them should be more applied today.
if you have a true pastor called of God and anointed By God to "do the work of THE ministry " you should thank almighty God for them and pray for them earnestly .

In Christ
gerald

in Christ
gerald

I was thinking back about 100 years or so originally but you do have a point about today. There are so many false teachings and theories out there today that it is obvious there are a lot of un-rained and uneducated people trying to do something they are not qualified to do.

 

[GBzone]

I was thinking back about 100 years or so originally but you do have a point about today. There are so many false teachings and theories out there today that it is obvious there are a lot of un-rained and uneducated people trying to do something they are not qualified to do.

A hundred years ago is but almost the same generation.
I think in terms more of 400 years and after .
But let us also be clear about "qualifications " and which your post indirectly encourages.
For there is a growing idea within the church that unless you understand Greek or Hebrew you cannot truly understand the scriptures.
I refute this utterly . Not because I am against the learning of them. But for record of scripture and the testimony of Paul and the record of Saul of Tarsus and all those who opposed Christ and "thought they did Gods will"
As I have said before we are in a reverse reformation where if things continue and this sort of thinking prevails .That people will need a license to preach .
Peter James and John were recognises as "ignorant and unlearned men" and so they were in the eyes of the world and indeed by education standards .
But not in their knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ who Paul counted of far more worth than all his qualifications in every sense of the word of which he speaks of .
Indeed they wrote things that the church is still searching the meanings of ! and of such profundity that they will still blaze like a sun for all eternity .
The calling is of God not men . and the qualification is of the anointing of the Holy Spirit as too their conformation of their calling .
and it is not THIER ministry but to the work of THE ministry and to what end? The perfection of the Church and the Bride . and".......... till we all come to the unity of THE faith" Ephesians .

Pauls qualification was of a different order than the self proclaimed prophets and apostles who are dripping with gold and silver and make merchandise of Gods people and who desire to be carried up on the shoulders of men.
Paul is the pattern of a true Apostle . In faith, In service, in conduct, in doctrine, in suffering , teaching and ambition or objectives .
and while it is extremely doubtful we will get another Paul. ANY Apostle will in some measure follow the pattern of Paul.
It will not be because they have been to this or that theological college studied Greek or Hebrew (though they might have) and had hands laid upon them by some 'bishop' .
Prophets and indeed true Apostles are made by GOD not men .
Even as every true BORN child of God is not made by men either or the will of men or the will of the flesh or the will of blood but by the will of God .

in Christ
gerald

 

[GBzone]

A hundred years ago is but almost the same generation.
I think in terms more of 400 years and after in terms of 'modern' preachers or pastors . But by scripture far longer heritage .
But let us also be clear about "qualifications " and which your post indirectly encourages.
For there is a growing idea within the church that unless you understand Greek or Hebrew you cannot truly understand the scriptures.
I refute this utterly . Not because I am against the learning of them. But for record of scripture and the testimony of Paul and the record of Saul of Tarsus and all those who opposed Christ and "thought they did Gods will"
As I have said before we are in a reverse reformation where if things continue and this sort of thinking prevails .That people will need a license to preach .
Peter James and John were recognises as "ignorant and unlearned men" and so they were in the eyes of the world and indeed by education standards .
But not in their knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ who Paul counted of far more worth than all his qualifications in every sense of the word of which he speaks of .
Indeed they wrote things that the church is still searching the meanings of ! and of such profundity that they will still blaze like a sun for all eternity .
The calling is of God not men . and the qualification is of the anointing of the Holy Spirit as too their conformation of their calling .
and it is not THIER ministry but to the work of THE ministry and to what end? The perfection of the Church and the Bride . and".......... till we all come to the unity of THE faith" Ephesians .

Pauls qualification was of a different order than the self proclaimed prophets and apostles who are dripping with gold and silver and make merchandise of Gods people and who desire to be carried up on the shoulders of men.
Paul is the pattern of a true Apostle . In faith, In service, in conduct, in doctrine, in suffering , teaching and ambition or objectives .
and while it is extremely doubtful we will get another Paul. ANY Apostle will in some measure follow the pattern of Paul.
It will not be because they have been to this or that theological college studied Greek or Hebrew (though they might have) and had hands laid upon them by some 'bishop' .
Prophets and indeed true Apostles are made by GOD not men .
Even as every true BORN child of God is not made by men either or the will of men or the will of the flesh or the will of blood but by the will of God .

in Christ
gerald

 

[calvin]

We have only to read some of the posts on this forum to see , (beyond doubt) that there are at least two major prerequisites for a person to be 'qualified to preach'.
1. An understanding of and skills in exegesis, exposition (hermeneutics if one prefers), and a thorough grounding in all 66 books of the Bible.
2. The testing of the spirit of the preacher.

We have seen teaching attempts here on this forum that range from Biblical and Godly to totally 'wacko Jacko' stuff.
So I'd say that while Peter et al. had no formal education(Paul excepted), they were educated by Jesus and the Holy Spirit and they were expressly equipped for the work they had to do.
The same or similar equipping is needed whenever the Word of God is to be preached.
But underpinning this equipping will of a necessity be formal education. Not necessarily in Greek and/or Hebrew, rather in the disciplines mentioned above. Though an understanding of Hebrew and Greek idiom is going to be useful for establishing original meaning ie. humor, sarcasm, poetic license etc.
I do not believe that just anybody who fancies himself as a preacher should be allowed to take to the pulpit and fill the air with his own noise.

 

[GBzone]

We have only to read some of the posts on this forum to see , (beyond doubt) that there are at least two major prerequisites for a person to be 'qualified to preach'.
1. An understanding of and skills in exegesis, exposition (hermeneutics if one prefers), and a thorough grounding in all 66 books of the Bible.
2. The testing of the spirit of the preacher.

We have seen teaching attempts here on this forum that range from Biblical and Godly to totally 'wacko Jacko' stuff.
So I'd say that while Peter et al. had no formal education(Paul excepted), they were educated by Jesus and the Holy Spirit and they were expressly equipped for the work they had to do.
The same or similar equipping is needed whenever the Word of God is to be preached.
But underpinning this equipping will of a necessity be formal education. Not necessarily in Greek and/or Hebrew, rather in the disciplines mentioned above. Though an understanding of Hebrew and Greek idiom is going to be useful for establishing original meaning ie. humor, sarcasm, poetic license etc.
I do not believe that just anybody who fancies himself as a preacher should be allowed to take to the pulpit and fill the air with his own noise.

I had hoped that I had made that distinction.
But I do not accept that it is or must be an underpinning of a formal education but the underpinning of God that is the vital part.
Though clearly they must be able to read .
I would further suggest that any true minister of God as listed in Ephesians must be expressly equipped for the work they are called to do.

I once talked to three educated and intelligent theological students attending a well known college in London .
they were taught logic and the philosophies of men and it seemed very opinion and differences of every' school ' of theology rather than the truth .
They were being taught to subject the scriptures to their own thinking and reasoning rather than measure or subject thier thinking and reasoning with scripture .
I shall stand by what I have already said therefore .
and of course I was not suggesting anything like your last comment .

In Christ
gerald

 

[calvin]

There are of course some rather ify schools of theology, my point 2 I think covers what we are both saying.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

[Ph8th]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO0000000000000000000ooooooooooooops!

 

[Ph8th]

There are of course some rather ify schools of theology, my point 2 I think covers what we are both saying

Who are these people you are referring to? How do you set them apart? How has their education made them? Are there schools better at producing God usable people?

peter

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

First I'll admit that I have not read every single post thus far: I am merely inputting my 2 cents for no other reason than to input my 2 cents:

I believe that scripture in our 'age' in the form of the modern Bible is exactly what God intended. What I don't see as part of God's plan is His Word divided-given to all tongues and nations-yes; having to be put in multiple translations of the same language:no. I believe this is part of the problem with the ugly Church today.

Since we 'Christians' can't seem to agree on doctrine-especially in western theology; why in the world would anyone be attracted to a house divided; a house in turmoil?

Look at the state of our churches today: something so basic as homosexuality as a sin being taught since the Pentateuch is being changed and rewritten to accommodate sin in our church denominations.

We can't agree on anything-we can't agree on creation much less salvation; and these are all basic ("fundamental") doctrines built on the Rock of our foundation-Jesus Christ. We have cults that say they are 'Christian' but believe that Christ was an "enlightened man" and His deity is erased.

The whole thing is a mess because we don't-WON'T agree on scripture even though we are commanded to do so to be of 'One accord' and not of ourselves. That's why the early church was able to be so potent-they didn't have to worry about divided scripture, they had the 'Old Testament' and the Disciples filled with the Holy Spirit.

Dare I say there are any truly "filled" with the Holy Spirit today? The Church is a mess-and it starts with disagreeing on scripture. We ought to get back to Jesus and not be so concerned about 'man's doctrines' (religions).

God forgive me....

 

[calvin]

There are of course some rather ify schools of theology, my point 2 I think covers what we are both saying

Who are these people you are referring to? How do you set them apart? How has their education made them? Are there schools better at producing God usable people?

peter

Well you could lookie here: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s121145.htm
You could Google Dr Peter Carnley, Bishop Spong, Babara Thiering the list could go on and on no doubt. But there are some seminaries that have their own barrows to push for example there are some that major on speaking in tongues. Not saying anything against speaking in tongues, just that it is a small part of Christian theology and thought and ought not be a major theme for a college to promote at the expense of other facets of Christianity. Rumors of Rhema comes to mind here, though they sound better than the rumors.(for what that is worth)

 

[Ph8th]

Well you could lookie here: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s121145.htm
You could Google Dr Peter Carnley, Bishop Spong, Babara Thiering the list could go on and on no doubt. But there are some seminaries that have their own barrows to push for example there are some that major on speaking in tongues. Not saying anything against speaking in tongues, just that it is a small part of Christian theology and thought and ought not be a major theme for a college to promote at the expense of other facets of Christianity. Rumors of Rhema comes to mind here, though they sound better than the rumors.(for what that is worth)

Calvin there are no great men of God.......... We are all just flawed and sinful men and women that short of God's mercy would not exist. Although there are men and women God has used greatly
I read up on the 2 people you put in your post and I believe that their higher education has led them away from the very God they profess to believe in.
I would question if it was the higher learning that brought them to believe that Jesus was only a good man and the bible is a book of stories/myths.......... Truth will set you free

PETER CARNLEY: All religions have things going for them, and I don't think Christianity has a monopoly on truth but we have a particular set of beliefs focused on the unique significance of Jesus Christ, and that is unique to Christianity.

Babara Thiering denies the miracles of Jesus and spirituality altogether

peter

 

[KingJ]

The other day I was listening to a debate about the existence of God between a Christian Minister and an Atheist. The atheist kept quoting scripture in an effort to show “contradictions” or “inconsistencies”. At one point the minister responded “There is a lot more to God than just scripture”.

I feel that this is true. But so many people when it comes to their God and their religion cling to their interpretation of scriptures as if nothing else matters. To illustrate that scripture isn’t always necessary in matters of morality I will use an example of teaching a child not to steal. First explain to the child that when they take someone else’s property they are hurting that person. Tell examples of the pain and inconveniences the victim will feel. Then explain the inner shame that the child will feel after stealing and the fact that they never can enjoy the stolen item. You could finally show them many examples of those who stole and the consequences faced through stories, documentaries etc. There are countless ones to choose from in every culture.

The above example could apply to really any of the major 10 commandments. There is the scripture “Though should not steal” and then there is the real life stuff. So my larger question is what is the danger of reducing everything about God to just scripture. Some parts of the Bible aren’t easy to understand. Many Christians and non-Christians get scripture wrong all the time. What is more valuable wise experience or scripture? Is it dangerous for someone without a seminary/theological background to study the bible alone?

No, to the underlined. The bible is inspired by God. Other books are not. The danger is in studying with half a brain / half truths.

Yes, we have brains. We can deduce right and wrong with them. Yes, God knows that. That is why mentally handicapped and children are exempt from judgment for the moment. Better use of the brain in interrogating scripture would be to ask.... why God gave the Jews the ten commandments and the many prophets that came after, with more. Why was it not the Chinese or the American Indians? Why did God not give Adam, Eve and Cain the ten commandments? He visited them just like He did Moses.

 

[KingJ]

Wouldn't you say that you should first be living the word before you share it. Then the person you are sharing with would want to be like you and be more open to what you shared?

What exactly is living the word? Being a good person? Helping the needy? Without scripture most would assume that. But with scripture we grasp that it is way beyond that. God wants us to love our enemy Matt 5:44. Give cloak and coat to a thief Matt 5. Not to resist an evil person Matt 5. Now context for that and further instruction on selflessness and then some is all in scripture. Not automatically assumed. Logic leads to eye for an eye and scratch my back if you scratch mine.

Nobody wants to be like a Christian. A Christian is a lamb to the slaughter / lamb among wolves. Everyone assumes it is 'carnally' prosperous, healthy and enemies under our feet .

 

[GBzone]

No, to the underlined. The bible is inspired by God. Other books are not. The danger is in studying with half a brain / half truths.

Yes, we have brains. We can deduce right and wrong with them. Yes, God knows that. That is why mentally handicapped and children are exempt from judgment for the moment. Better use of the brain in interrogating scripture would be to ask.... why God gave the Jews the ten commandments and the many prophets that came after, with more. Why was it not the Chinese or the American Indians? Why did God not give Adam, Eve and Cain the ten commandments? He visited them just like He did Moses.

Having worked with mentally handicapped children for 18 years some very much so . I would have to disagree with you as to them not knowing right from wrong .

Here are some thoughts on your questions .
Out of the generation of Noah he called out Noah and his generation perished .
Out of the generation of Abraham he called out Abraham.
In Biblical terms there is only the Jews who had the law and the gentiles who had not the law and were then "a law unto themselves "
In Romans Paul irifutably argues that those who had the law and those without the law are both found guilty either by the law or without it and ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
God chose a piece of land eastward in Eden and planted a garden .
God chose a piece of land now called Israel .
God chose a battle field long ago called Armageddon .
If Wellington could choose the battle field of waterloo two years before it was needed to fight Napoleon . I hold that God being a "God of war" can choose a battlefield 4000 years ago as the place to fight the final battle .
God did not send anyone to the gentiles .
For salvation is FIRST to the Jews THEN the gentiles.
God is a God of order and it is not mans.
Have you ever considered that you cannot make a brazen serpent in 5 minutes?
and all the time it was being prepared people were dying.
have you ever considered that the great fish that swallowed Jonah was also written " God prepared a great fish"?
Long before Jonah was called maybe even before he was born .God prepared a fish from a minnow to a great fish able to swallow a man.
Gods fore vision made provision.
" The kingdom of God is like a sower who went to sow "
No man sows seed on unprepared soil.

It took God 4000 years to prepare the soil for that seed that would "fall into the ground and die "

Adam and Eve received a covering of animals skins that foreshadowed the sacrifice of animals for the covering of sin . and to which Abel followed the pattern laid down by God in the garden .But which Cain did not .
But if the covering of animal skins would have restored them to their former estate then there was no need for the promise .
But to show that the covering was temporary he gave them m also a promise that was eternal.
God is a God of order .
and words being what they are can only be said one word at a time .
In then the order of words and their order of subject . Then man shall live by EVERY Word that proccedeth form the mouth of God .

The gospel first in embriyonic form then the law to convict of sin .The shadow before the substance.
For the shadow comes by having the light behind the substance ..

The Jews first then the gentiles.

The law then the gospel

in Christ
gerald

 

[GBzone]

Calvin there are no great men of God.......... We are all just flawed and sinful men and women that short of God's mercy would not exist. Although there are men and women God has used greatly
I read up on the 2 people you put in your post and I believe that their higher education has led them away from the very God they profess to believe in.
I would question if it was the higher learning that brought them to believe that Jesus was only a good man and the bible is a book of stories/myths.......... Truth will set you free

PETER CARNLEY: All religions have things going for them, and I don't think Christianity has a monopoly on truth but we have a particular set of beliefs focused on the unique significance of Jesus Christ, and that is unique to Christianity.

Babara Thiering denies the miracles of Jesus and spirituality altogether

peter

Well you will have to take that up with the Lord . Because he said of John the Baptist that he was the greatest born of women .
and another place "he was great in the eyes of the Lord "

Not of course great in his own eyes .

Far better to be great in the eyes of the Lord than to eb great in the eyes of men .

I do wonder how many sound theological colleges there are left for they seem to be all conforming to the spirit of this world that seeks a one world religion .

in Christ
gerald

 

[KingJ]

Having worked with mentally handicapped children for 18 years some very much so . I would have to disagree with you as to them not knowing right from wrong .

Here are some thoughts on your questions .
Out of the generation of Noah he called out Noah and his generation perished .
Out of the generation of Abraham he called out Abraham.
In Biblical terms there is only the Jews who had the law and the gentiles who had not the law and were then "a law unto themselves "
In Romans Paul irifutably argues that those who had the law and those without the law are both found guilty either by the law or without it and ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
God chose a piece of land eastward in Eden and planted a garden .
God chose a piece of land now called Israel .
God chose a battle field long ago called Armageddon .
If Wellington could choose the battle field of waterloo two years before it was needed to fight Napoleon . I hold that God being a "God of war" can choose a battlefield 4000 years ago as the place to fight the final battle .
God did not send anyone to the gentiles .
For salvation is FIRST to the Jews THEN the gentiles.
God is a God of order and it is not mans.
Have you ever considered that you cannot make a brazen serpent in 5 minutes?
and all the time it was being prepared people were dying.
have you ever considered that the great fish that swallowed Jonah was also written " God prepared a great fish"?
Long before Jonah was called maybe even before he was born .God prepared a fish from a minnow to a great fish able to swallow a man.
Gods fore vision made provision.
" The kingdom of God is like a sower who went to sow "
No man sows seed on unprepared soil.

It took God 4000 years to prepare the soil for that seed that would "fall into the ground and die "

Adam and Eve received a covering of animals skins that foreshadowed the sacrifice of animals for the covering of sin . and to which Abel followed the pattern laid down by God in the garden .But which Cain did not .
But if the covering of animal skins would have restored them to their former estate then there was no need for the promise .
But to show that the covering was temporary he gave them m also a promise that was eternal.
God is a God of order .
and words being what they are can only be said one word at a time .
In then the order of words and their order of subject . Then man shall live by EVERY Word that proccedeth form the mouth of God .

The gospel first in embriyonic form then the law to convict of sin .The shadow before the substance.
For the shadow comes by having the light behind the substance ..

The Jews first then the gentiles.

The law then the gospel

in Christ
gerald

Your post was a good read. I agree with all you said other then the mentally handicapped. What lead you to post all that?

You want substantiation on mentally handicapped escaping judgment now, for another day?

 

[GBzone]

First I'll admit that I have not read every single post thus far: I am merely inputting my 2 cents for no other reason than to input my 2 cents:

I believe that scripture in our 'age' in the form of the modern Bible is exactly what God intended. What I don't see as part of God's plan is His Word divided-given to all tongues and nations-yes; having to be put in multiple translations of the same language:no. I believe this is part of the problem with the ugly Church today.

Since we 'Christians' can't seem to agree on doctrine-especially in western theology; why in the world would anyone be attracted to a house divided; a house in turmoil?

Look at the state of our churches today: something so basic as homosexuality as a sin being taught since the Pentateuch is being changed and rewritten to accommodate sin in our church denominations.

We can't agree on anything-we can't agree on creation much less salvation; and these are all basic ("fundamental") doctrines built on the Rock of our foundation-Jesus Christ. We have cults that say they are 'Christian' but believe that Christ was an "enlightened man" and His deity is erased.

The whole thing is a mess because we don't-WON'T agree on scripture even though we are commanded to do so to be of 'One accord' and not of ourselves. That's why the early church was able to be so potent-they didn't have to worry about divided scripture, they had the 'Old Testament' and the Disciples filled with the Holy Spirit.

Dare I say there are any truly "filled" with the Holy Spirit today? The Church is a mess-and it starts with disagreeing on scripture. We ought to get back to Jesus and not be so concerned about 'man's doctrines' (religions).

God forgive me....

There is the BODY of truth which si called the Holy Bible .
Then there is the "Spirit of truth"

There lies the rub.
Men no longer willing to be LED by Him "into all truth "
But think by their intellect alone they can discern what is true or not or can understands the scriptures .
The intellect in ,of and by itself is a false light .

in Christ
gerald

 

[LanceA]

First I'll admit that I have not read every single post thus far: I am merely inputting my 2 cents for no other reason than to input my 2 cents:

I believe that scripture in our 'age' in the form of the modern Bible is exactly what God intended. What I don't see as part of God's plan is His Word divided-given to all tongues and nations-yes; having to be put in multiple translations of the same language:no. I believe this is part of the problem with the ugly Church today.

Since we 'Christians' can't seem to agree on doctrine-especially in western theology; why in the world would anyone be attracted to a house divided; a house in turmoil?

Look at the state of our churches today: something so basic as homosexuality as a sin being taught since the Pentateuch is being changed and rewritten to accommodate sin in our church denominations.

We can't agree on anything-we can't agree on creation much less salvation; and these are all basic ("fundamental") doctrines built on the Rock of our foundation-Jesus Christ. We have cults that say they are 'Christian' but believe that Christ was an "enlightened man" and His deity is erased.

The whole thing is a mess because we don't-WON'T agree on scripture even though we are commanded to do so to be of 'One accord' and not of ourselves. That's why the early church was able to be so potent-they didn't have to worry about divided scripture, they had the 'Old Testament' and the Disciples filled with the Holy Spirit.

Dare I say there are any truly "filled" with the Holy Spirit today? The Church is a mess-and it starts with disagreeing on scripture. We ought to get back to Jesus and not be so concerned about 'man's doctrines' (religions).

God forgive me....

I agree with everything you have said here but one part. I believe there are spirit filled Christians. I just got done watching a movie called "Holy Ghost" and one thing that it stated was most Christians today belief in the trinity is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Bible. I think Christians just feel the Holy Spirit is kinda weird or just makes them uncomfortable?

 

[Ph8th]

Well you will have to take that up with the Lord . Because he said of John the Baptist that he was the greatest born of women .
and another place "he was great in the eyes of the Lord "

Not of course great in his own eyes .

Far better to be great in the eyes of the Lord than to eb great in the eyes of men .

I do wonder how many sound theological colleges there are left for they seem to be all conforming to the spirit of this world that seeks a one world religion .

in Christ
gerald

Brother John was no greater than the Lord made him........ When you look up to men you create idols..... Men who's works are for the praise of other men are their own idols. Self is the orgin of all sin.

ME

Me I want my name in lights
Fame and money and no less
That is why I’m on my knees
To crucify my flesh
Dear Lord my savior
Please have mercy on me
It’s you and nothing else
My flesh it refuses to let it be
It raises and exalts itself
To be equal with you if it could
But I know what is here for me
It’s doing what I should
Living life to serve Thee

​

peter