Where do dinosaurs fit in?

[calvin]

It was God speaking in these passages not Lucifer. If Lucifer did not posses a throne God would have said so. Besides, Lucifer was the most beautiful, and full of wisdom angel God had created. I don't think a angel of this description would be one who mowed the grass along the sidewalks of Heaven, or trim the hedges of many small villages. He would have a position of power and authority which would have required a throne.

Well actually, yes and no. You are right in that it is the Lord speaking, but He is quoting what He has found in Lucifer's heart:::::
Isa 14:13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;
so, I think my point should still stand.

 

[calvin]

What we do know according to fossil remains is that all the dinosaurs died off quickly. I don't think there was a "global" hunting party that traversed the entire planet killing them.

Maybe not, a bit before my time.
But I would like to remind you that Geologists and Paleontologists think that several million years is 'overnight' geologically speaking. So if the dinos disappeared quickly relatively speaking, they might well have died out over several million years. After all since they discount Noah's flood which would have laid down sedimentary deposits in a very short period of time, they say nar nar these sedimentary deposits were laid down over millions of years.
Can't have the cake and eat it too.
But I still think it was possible to club juvenile dinos (or set their phasers on stun) and stocked their pantries.
Why do I like this idea? Killing sexually immature dinos, not only gets rid of the slaughtered animal, but also countless thousands that might otherwise have been born had it reached a reproductive age and mated........do the math.

 

[Major]

Why? show me where the passenger manifest is recorded

You are correct!

 

[Major]

the mass cataclysm was the flood, post flood, the giant dinosaurs that we think of when we hear the word could not exist due to the atmosphere. Therefore post flood, large dinosaurs did not survive and either adapted to the animals we know them as today (crocodiles, snakes, etc...) or certain ones were hunted off, hence the legend of dragons found in ever known ancient society.

I agree with all of that but none of this explains WHERE the water in Genesis 1:2 came from. The water was present before the creation activity of God. That is my point.

 

[Major]

Maybe not, a bit before my time.
But I would like to remind you that Geologists and Paleontologists think that several million years is 'overnight' geologically speaking. So if the dinos disappeared quickly relatively speaking, they might well have died out over several million years. After all since they discount Noah's flood which would have laid down sedimentary deposits in a very short period of time, they say nar nar these sedimentary deposits were laid down over millions of years.
Can't have the cake and eat it too.
But I still think it was possible to club juvenile dinos (or set their phasers on stun) and stocked their pantries.
Why do I like this idea? Killing sexually immature dinos, not only gets rid of the slaughtered animal, but also countless thousands that might otherwise have been born had it reached a reproductive age and mated........do the math.

Good point, however why have we not found any human fossils with dinosaur fossils. If they lived at the same time, and were killed by humans with their phasers and clubs, would it not stand to reason that human bones would have to be found with those of the dino's????

 

[CCW95A]

The earth in Genesis 1:2 did NOT start out as "void, and without form". It " became" void and without form. The word "was" means, "to become" The exact same word is used when God breathed into Adam, and he "became" a living soul. In the space of just "one" verse the earth went from being dry land to being over flowed completely with water destroying every thing on it.

Gen 1:2.. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What does God call "earth"? He does NOT call the water earth as he calls the water "seas". The only part God calls earth is the "dry land."

Gen 1:10.. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:2.. says and the earth (dry land) became void, and without form!! The earth went from being a dry land to becoming void, and formless along with darkness over the face of the deep. At the end of this verse it says, "...the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." This scripture did NOT say the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the earth, or dry land, why? Because there was no dry land for it became completely over flowed with water!!!
Where do you suppose this water came from, and what caused all of this destruction?

 

[calvin]

Good point, however why have we not found any human fossils with dinosaur fossils. If they lived at the same time, and were killed by humans with their phasers and clubs, would it not stand to reason that human bones would have to be found with those of the dino's????

G'day major,
I don't have a definitive answer to that. Is it sound to argue a case from silence?
It is said that the fossil deposits of vertebrate animals contain only a small fraction of the total expected numbers.
If this is true them one could question why there is not a fossil for every creature that then was.

It is said that a dead body will float for a period of time that is heavily influenced by the amount of adipose fatty tissue it has.
If this is true, then the fatter the body, the longer it will remain floating.
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=/PNS/PNS51_03/S0029665192000521a.pdf&code=f2486e00235d6428535dff80e4f96db5
This link which is to a creditable source shows that there are distinct differences in the distribution of adipose tissue from species to species.
To summarize a rather lengthy scientific paper, humans and other mammals and birds have more evenly distributed adipose tissue than do fast moving reptiles and amphibians whose adipose tissues are confined to the abdomen.
There is also the apparent inclusion of brown adipose tissue in birds and mammals that is not present in reptiles (some sources say). does this impose a significant difference to the rate of decay? not sure but I think it might.

One can only speculate that mammals might remain buoyant for longer than reptiles and dinos? because of the distribution of fatty tissues throughout the body. If this is so, then there would be selective fossilization with the 'leaner' animals sinking and being buried while the fattier animals would maybe come to rest closer to the surface of sedimentary deposits. If this is true, then those shallower bodies might well be totally obliterated.
In summary major, it is a big question that IMO can't be answered, but to argue from silence is not wise.

 

[Abdicate]

Human and dinosaur fossil footprints in the Upper Cretaceous of North America?

http://creation.com/human-and-dinosaur-fossil-footprints

Think for a moment what it would mean if both human and dinosaur footprints were found. They would prove the word of God and not evolution. Therefore governments and scientist will go to great lengths to discredit the discoveries, just as the powers that be tried to discredit Tesla's AC electricity. Even Einstein praised Tesla for his affects on mankind. Every lightbulb is of Tesla's design, but most people credit Edison for its invention. When those that have money and resources don't like something, the next generation will call it wrong. Believe the word of God and study it and understand that every word has its very specific meaning by which most of this disputes can be solved once one removes the teachings of mankind.

 

[calvin]

G'day major,
I don't have a definitive answer to that. Is it sound to argue a case from silence?
<<Snip>>
One can only speculate that mammals might remain buoyant for longer than reptiles and dinos? because of the distribution of fatty tissues throughout the body. If this is so, then there would be selective fossilization with the 'leaner' animals sinking and being buried while the fattier animals would maybe come to rest closer to the surface of sedimentary deposits. If this is true, then those shallower bodies might well be totally obliterated.
In summary major, it is a big question that IMO can't be answered, but to argue from silence is not wise.

One other thing that occurs to me is that if dinos and other reptiles sank more quickly than mammals and birds due to the amount and distribution of adipose tissue, then that would place their remains in lower strata. This by evolutionary thinking would tend to make dinos older and mammals and birds younger.......just a thought.

 

[Major]

One other thing that occurs to me is that if dinos and other reptiles sank more quickly than mammals and birds due to the amount and distribution of adipose tissue, then that would place their remains in lower strata. This by evolutionary thinking would tend to make dinos older and mammals and birds younger.......just a thought.

But, again.......where did all the water come from in which that sank to the bottom of?

 

[Abdicate]

But, again.......where did all the water come from in which that sank to the bottom of?

The waters were separated, Gen 1:7, and when the waters were separated the land appeared, Gen 1:9-10. So space, the air we breath filled with water created a canopy around the earth, and the oceans were all separated and most of the water went under the ground, Gen 7:11. The earth's crust was floating on a sea of water under it, around it and above it. When the crust cracked, the water shot up much like a pimple popping, spewing water into the upper atmosphere causing it to rupture the water barrier around the earth causing it to rain for the first time, Gen 2:6. At the same time this water going up, it must come back down, and since it went so high, it began to freeze and when it came back down it caused the polar caps and a great deal of life on earth to become frozen in an instant. This evidence is everywhere - google it. The flood was caused by a close flyby of Mars which caused the great rift on Mars and the one on earth from Ethiopia to India. The gravitational pull of Mars caused the crust to crack. It's also when/why the earth's rotation changed from 360 days to ~365.2425 (or there about - Hezikiah and Joshua's events also cause global changes.) The Japanese tsunami caused the earth's rotation to shorted by 1.8 microsecond, moved the big island 8 feet and tilted the earth by 6.5 inches. Or look at it like this; the earth's north-south axis changed by 33 feet. Imagine what happened in a global flood. This will happen again when the two asteroids hit the earth causing it to lose 8 hours, Rev 8:8, Isa 24:20!

I hope this helps. As you can see I've been studying this for quite a while.

 

[KingJ]

Can't we solve dinosaurs with theology? In the sense of them eating each other = sin. Who is responsible for this sin?

We have three options:

1. Fallen angels were here before us and their sin corrupted the earth. God knew this would happen. So on earth He always had T-rexes with big sharp teeth. T- rexes were prior to this lying peacefully with Brachiosaurus's.

2. Our sin corrupted them, fallen angels sin has / had nothing to do with earth. In which case everything Ken Ham teaches applies / is true.

3. His creations' sin is not a factor. He was ok with the cruelty of T-rexes eating others.

Option 3 is clearly incredulous. Then if we can prove that fallen angels fell after or at the same time of humans, it makes option 2 the only option. I believe 1 at the moment.

 

[calvin]

But, again.......where did all the water come from in which that sank to the bottom of?

The answer has been right in front of you all the time major:
Gen 6:17. For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.
The water came from God.

 

[Major]

The answer has been right in front of you all the time major:
Gen 6:17. For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.
The water came from God.

Correct my brother. But that is contextually applied to the flood of Noah.

My question is focused on Genesis 1:2 and the "water" on the earth BEFORE God began the creation process in verse #3.

The earth in Genesis 1:2 did NOT start out as "void, and without form". It " became" void and without form. The word "was" means, "to become" The exact same word is used when God breathed into Adam, and he "became" a living soul. In the space of just "one" verse the earth went from being dry land to being over flowed completely with water destroying every thing on it.

Gen 1:2.. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What does God call "earth"? He does NOT call the water earth as he calls the water "seas". The only part God calls earth is the "dry land."

Gen 1:10.. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:2.. says and the earth (dry land) became void, and without form!! The earth went from being a dry land to becoming void, and formless along with darkness over the face of the deep. At the end of this verse it says, "...the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." This scripture did NOT say the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the earth, or dry land, why? Because there was no dry land for it became completely over flowed with water!!!
Where do you suppose this water came from, and what caused all of this destruction?

And that is what I have been asking as well.

 

[Major]

The waters were separated, Gen 1:7, and when the waters were separated the land appeared, Gen 1:9-10. So space, the air we breath filled with water created a canopy around the earth, and the oceans were all separated and most of the water went under the ground, Gen 7:11. The earth's crust was floating on a sea of water under it, around it and above it. When the crust cracked, the water shot up much like a pimple popping, spewing water into the upper atmosphere causing it to rupture the water barrier around the earth causing it to rain for the first time, Gen 2:6. At the same time this water going up, it must come back down, and since it went so high, it began to freeze and when it came back down it caused the polar caps and a great deal of life on earth to become frozen in an instant. This evidence is everywhere - google it. The flood was caused by a close flyby of Mars which caused the great rift on Mars and the one on earth from Ethiopia to India. The gravitational pull of Mars caused the crust to crack. It's also when/why the earth's rotation changed from 360 days to ~365.2425 (or there about - Hezikiah and Joshua's events also cause global changes.) The Japanese tsunami caused the earth's rotation to shorted by 1.8 microsecond, moved the big island 8 feet and tilted the earth by 6.5 inches. Or look at it like this; the earth's north-south axis changed by 33 feet. Imagine what happened in a global flood. This will happen again when the two asteroids hit the earth causing it to lose 8 hours, Rev 8:8, Isa 24:20!

I hope this helps. As you can see I've been studying this for quite a while.

That is all good information and yes, I have read that same thing but I have to question some of your thinking. However, it still does not address the water in Genesis 1:2 "Before" the creation process began.

You are hypothesizing that the flood of Noah was caused by a fly by of Mars. But God said in Genesis 6:17...........
"And I even I do bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life from under heaven and everything that is in the earth shall die".

You are saying that the Great African Rift was caused by Mars flyby. Is that also your opinion of the reason of the Grand Canyon's existence?

 

[Major]

Can't we solve dinosaurs with theology? In the sense of them eating each other = sin. Who is responsible for this sin?

We have three options:

1. Fallen angels were here before us and their sin corrupted the earth. God knew this would happen. So on earth He always had T-rexes with big sharp teeth. T- rexes were prior to this lying peacefully with Brachiosaurus's.

2. Our sin corrupted them, fallen angels sin has / had nothing to do with earth. In which case everything Ken Ham teaches applies / is true.

3. His creations' sin is not a factor. He was ok with the cruelty of T-rexes eating others.

Option 3 is clearly incredulous. Then if we can prove that fallen angels fell after or at the same time of humans, it makes option 2 the only option. I believe 1 at the moment.

Good stuff and I am going to go with option #1 as well!

 

[Abdicate]

However, it still does not address the water in Genesis 1:2 "Before" the creation process began.

I've already addressed this in another thread, but I'll repeat here: God spoke everything into existence (faith of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen), and all the elements of the universe was laid out like legos on a table. The Holy Spirit stirs up (energize) these elements and the most abundant elements in the universe: hydrogen, helium, and oxygen.

You are hypothesizing that the flood of Noah was caused by a fly by of Mars. But God said

Yes, and? How do you know He didn't bring Mars to disrupt the geological stability of the planet to do just what happened? I used to get angry with the History Channel and Discovery Channels when they would "explain away" God's events. Then it dawned on me, they explain something away to instill doubt in those that are in doubt or instill doubt about God's power. God said to study His creation to learn more about Him. If we explain how does it explain away the Who? Only to the one looking for an out.

You are saying that the Great African Rift was caused by Mars flyby.

Yes, because it wasn't it's first. In fact the current orbit is more elliptical and offset compared to the earths. Also Venus was involved, but this part is a lot more in-depth than I care to get into. You can google it or read my study.

Is that also your opinion of the reason of the Grand Canyon's existence?

Mt. St. Helen created a mini-Grand Canyon when it erupted. I'm sure the Gran Canyon was created because of the flood, but not over millions of years. I don't believe the geographical disruption caused the Grand Canyon because it is not opposite of Ethiopia. The "grand" canyon on Mars is opposite it's mountain range, so it could have been done by its close encounters with the earth. I do believe the damage done on Mars is the same damage in the Great African Rift. It is also why, if found, there'd be water on Mars and what mights have happened to its atmosphere.

It's just my understanding.

 

[calvin]

Correct my brother. But that is contextually applied to the flood of Noah.

My question is focused on Genesis 1:2 and the "water" on the earth BEFORE God began the creation process in verse #3.

Sorry major I guess I missed your point first time round.
The short answer is "I don't know"
The long answer is "I still don't know"
Does it matter?

 

[Major]

Sorry major I guess I missed your point first time round.
The short answer is "I don't know"
The long answer is "I still don't know"
Does it matter?

lol!.......Me too. I have no clue and that is why I was asking.

 

[CCW95A]

Genesis flood
Psa 104:5.. Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
(This is for sure talking about the beginning in Genesis.)

Psa 104:6.. Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
(Gen 1:2 the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters in which the waters stood above the mountains)

Psa 104:7.. At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
(This is not Noah's flood as God spoke to the waters here, and they fled away in haste (quickly))

Noah's flood
Gen 8:2.. The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
Gen 8:3.. And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

(In Noah's flood the waters S L O W L Y receded away after 150 days)

How many floods have there been on earth?