Who REALLY Crucified Jesus?

[Musicmaster]

For many years I've heard the claim that all we sinner put Christ on that cross.

Frankly, that's as false as can be, and prideful too, because it steals from the Father His own plan in all that He set forth throughout the history of mankind, and beyond.

 

[Dave F.]

The Bible tells us the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world. God planned our salvation before we were created.

 

[crossnote]

Acts 4:27-28 ESV
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, [28] to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

We're all culpable. It's one of those 'you meant it for evil but God meant it for good' type moments.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

This is a deceptively deep question. Thanks for asking!

It seems to me there are many levels to this. The Romans crucified Jesus, obviously. But they did so at behest of the Jewish leaders. But... perhaps there's more to it. What role did Satan play in this? Did he foment the jealousy and rage that drove the Jews? And what of God himself? He foresaw this. Indeed he planned this for man's salvation.

Layers. Lots and lots of layers.

 

[ButterflyJones]

The Bible tells us the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world. God planned our salvation before we were created.

Which means he preplanned the fall. And our damnation. Making salvation that what saves us from his sending us to either location, heaven or hell, that he also planned before the foundation of the world.

 

[Musicmaster]

Which means he preplanned the fall. And our damnation. Making salvation that what saves us from his sending us to either location, heaven or hell, that he also planned before the foundation of the world.

Preplanned damnation? Not sure I understand what you mean by that. Could you elaborate rather than for me to leap to any wrong assumptions?

MM

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Which means he preplanned the fall.

Times like now I think of this:

Isaiah 55:8-9
English Standard Version
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Musicmaster]

Which means he preplanned the fall. And our damnation. Making salvation that what saves us from his sending us to either location, heaven or hell, that he also planned before the foundation of the world.

I'm in agreement with you that the fall was in line with His plan for mankind and the world since nothing takes Him by surprise. The purpose for the fall and for sin also has purpose, but I'm not in agreement about the last part, if you're saying what you appear to be saying. That part we can all talk about in a private vein of discussion in the "Conversations" area.

MM

 

[Major]

The Bible tells us the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world. God planned our salvation before we were created.

Amen!

 

[Major]

This is a deceptively deep question. Thanks for asking!

It seems to me there are many levels to this. The Romans crucified Jesus, obviously. But they did so at behest of the Jewish leaders. But... perhaps there's more to it. What role did Satan play in this? Did he foment the jealousy and rage that drove the Jews? And what of God himself? He foresaw this. Indeed he planned this for man's salvation.

Layers. Lots and lots of layers.

And since God is OMNISCIENT, then He lays at the root of the question which is what the speaker is saying.

 

[Major]

Which means he preplanned the fall. And our damnation. Making salvation that what saves us from his sending us to either location, heaven or hell, that he also planned before the foundation of the world.

NO...That is impossible!

That in fact, not theory, would make God the author of Sin, evil and death.

Once again, here we are walking into the waters of the flood of Predestination which we can not discuss. Before the hammer falls again, allow me to say to you that God did not desire the Fall, but permitted it by bestowing on rational man the ability to disobey God’s command even while God continued to extend the grace necessary for man to obey. That my friends is called FREEDOM OF CHOICE!

We did what God knew we would do.

 

[Major]

I'm in agreement with you that the fall was in line with His plan for mankind and the world since nothing takes Him by surprise. The purpose for the fall and for sin also has purpose, but I'm not in agreement about the last part, if you're saying what you appear to be saying. That part we can all talk about in a private vein of discussion in the "Conversations" area.

MM

God knowing how people would choose if given the opportunity, does not IMHO mean that the "Fall" was His plan.

 

[ButterflyJones]

NO...That is impossible!

That in fact, not theory, would make God the author of Sin, evil and death.

Once again, here we are walking into the waters of the flood of Predestination which we can not discuss. Before the hammer falls again, allow me to say to you that God did not desire the Fall, but permitted it by bestowing on rational man the ability to disobey God’s command even while God continued to extend the grace necessary for man to obey. That my friends is called FREEDOM OF CHOICE!

We did what God knew we would do.

Except the forbidden topic is all through the Bible.
Man plans his way but God sets his steps.


Two things that prove the prior point about the fall.
God looked on all he created and judged it good. That included a forbidden tree. If forbidden why plant it?

And two, Satan was able to enter the garden disguised as a serpent and knew precisely which in which tree to slither so to tempt Eve.


Jesus. The lamb slain before the foundation of the world.Before the world was made. Before sin here existed.
The first sin was in Heaven when Satan and his angel allies went to war against their creator.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Think back to the Prodigal Son. The son who stays and is obedient to the father is well loved and inherits all that the father has, but the son that flees and then returns is celebrated. I see this as a metaphor for salvation itself. Our fall and subsequent redemption has value, indeed has supreme value.

 

[Major]

Except the forbidden topic is all through the Bible.
Man plans his way but God sets his steps.


Two things that prove the prior point about the fall.
God looked on all he created and judged it good. That included a forbidden tree. If forbidden why plant it?

And two, Satan was able to enter the garden disguised as a serpent and knew precisely which in which tree to slither so to tempt Eve.


Jesus. The lamb slain before the foundation of the world.Before the world was made. Before sin here existed.
The first sin was in Heaven when Satan and his angel allies went to war against their creator.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him.

If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. They would not have had to ability to love with a full heart. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be free, they had to have a choice.

The devil, as a spirit being, used the serpent because it is a creature more subtle than other animals (Gen.3:1).

You said..........
"Jesus. The lamb slain before the foundation of the world.Before the world was made. Before sin here existed.
The first sin was in Heaven when Satan and his angel allies went to war against their creator."

That is Bible recorded truth. Now, is there a point you were wanting to make?

 

[forgiven61]

That included a forbidden tree. If forbidden why plant it?

the 64 thousand dollar question that will never be answered. i do realize SOME think they know . but in reality they dont.. i could give mine but then again i am free will . i do expect the Golden cow of religion to be kicked over and the thread shut down

 

[Musicmaster]

Except the forbidden topic is all through the Bible.
Man plans his way but God sets his steps.


Two things that prove the prior point about the fall.
God looked on all he created and judged it good. That included a forbidden tree. If forbidden why plant it?

And two, Satan was able to enter the garden disguised as a serpent and knew precisely which in which tree to slither so to tempt Eve.


Jesus. The lamb slain before the foundation of the world.Before the world was made. Before sin here existed.
The first sin was in Heaven when Satan and his angel allies went to war against their creator.

God questions.

Even the forbidden tree was good in and of itself in that garden.

What was forbidden, what was bad, was the ACT of any man eating from it. The ACT of doing so was forbidden. That did not in any way take from it the goodness in its creation. It was functioning perfectly as designed, as were all the other plants in the garden. It's inclusion in the garden fit in perfectly with God's plan.

As to Satan, when we read the narrative, it seems obvious that Satan had observational skills about what was forbidden to the humans, and so he monopolized on that to implement his plan, which so happened to fit in perfectly with God's own plans. Satan, in spite of his inherent evil, is still a pawn in the hands of the Most High, for he cannot do anything that would disrupt the Lord's plans for mankind and the earth.

As to when the Lamb was slain...when it comes to eternity, when is then, and when is now? When we try to exercise that muscle between our ears about a realm we've never experienced, and therefore cannot know with any measure of reasonable assurance, then shrugging the shoulders is the best expression of what we think we know.

MM

 

[Major]

God questions.

Even the forbidden tree was good in and of itself in that garden.

What was forbidden, what was bad, was the ACT of any man eating from it. The ACT of doing so was forbidden. That did not in any way take from it the goodness in its creation. It was functioning perfectly as designed, as were all the other plants in the garden. It's inclusion in the garden fit in perfectly with God's plan.

As to Satan, when we read the narrative, it seems obvious that Satan had observational skills about what was forbidden to the humans, and so he monopolized on that to implement his plan, which so happened to fit in perfectly with God's own plans. Satan, in spite of his inherent evil, is still a pawn in the hands of the Most High, for he cannot do anything that would disrupt the Lord's plans for mankind and the earth.

As to when the Lamb was slain...when it comes to eternity, when is then, and when is now? When we try to exercise that muscle between our ears about a realm we've never experienced, and therefore cannot know with any measure of reasonable assurance, then shrugging the shoulders is the best expression of what we think we know.

MM

All that is true. It is not so much to do with eating from the Tree of life at all. The Thread if we go back to your original thought is about........"Who put Christ on the cross."

It seems to have morphed into Election and the Tree of Life.

Ge. 3:22-24......
"Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."

It seems to me that After the fall of mankind through Adam and Eve, God sent them out of the Garden of Eve to exclude them from the tree of life there. That was to protect Adam and Eve and their offspring from the immortality given by the tree of life, which in their fallen state would've had eternally condemned them to suffer and separation from God. In God's mercy and love for mankind, after the fall He enabled us to die that we may be lifted up through His Son and rejoined with Him in heaven.

 

[Musicmaster]

All that is true. It is not so much to do with eating from the Tree of life at all. The Thread if we go back to your original thought is about........"Who put Christ on the cross."

It seems to have morphed into Election and the Tree of Life.

Ge. 3:22-24......
"Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."

It seems to me that After the fall of mankind through Adam and Eve, God sent them out of the Garden of Eve to exclude them from the tree of life there. That was to protect Adam and Eve and their offspring from the immortality given by the tree of life, which in their fallen state would've had eternally condemned them to suffer and separation from God. In God's mercy and love for mankind, after the fall He enabled us to die that we may be lifted up through His Son and rejoined with Him in heaven.

Actually, Major, the various alternate path of topic so far is still connected to the placement of Christ on that cross. None of this detracts from the original conclusion, in that it's the Father who placed His Son on that cross. Not even sin had/has the power to do so. Nothing could touch Christ until the appointed time, so they idea that feeble mankind had the power to put Him there...it's laughable when I hear false teachers on TV and radio out there saying otherwise.

MM

 

[Major]

Actually, Major, the various alternate path of topic so far is still connected to the placement of Christ on that cross. None of this detracts from the original conclusion, in that it's the Father who placed His Son on that cross. Not even sin had/has the power to do so. Nothing could touch Christ until the appointed time, so they idea that feeble mankind had the power to put Him there...it's laughable when I hear false teachers on TV and radio out there saying otherwise.

MM

Most of those TV guys do that for effect to convict us. You know............"YOU , your sin put Jesus on the cross, so YOU need to confess him right now so you can be save, and as soon as you do that, call us at 800 -666-3333 and tell us about your actions!!!"