Who-What are the Oracles

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Amazing to me that some still want to live by the Law, as in keeping Sabbath, Jewish diets, for if you go that route, have to keep it all!

YF, that's only true for those who seek to keep the Law as their means for justification and salvation. When you paint every intention with the broad brush strokes of condemnation, any one of us most generally ends up on the side of gross error.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Now, if you can find in anywhere in that context where those believing Jews were in any way chastised for their zealotry for the Law, then please point it out to me. I'd very much like to see it.

The Jewish believers understood these things, and were still zealous for the Law, and never once rebuked for it:

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 3:20, 28

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. ... 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

I could go on and on and on, and one will search in vain to find any instruction to disregard the Law, to not study it, and to disregard applying the knowledge obtained from the Law, which can and does assist in one's ability to abstain from sin, especially the commission of many sins through ignorance.

So, it's the difference between applying the Law of God PROPERLY in one's life. Leaving out justification, one is well within the good pleasure of the Lord to study it and learn from it. Far too many people have given themselves over to the falsehoods of the Romish church teachings about the Law here in the West.

Again, if anyone has something with substance that would say otherwise, then I welcome your insights.

Love you all, and thoroughly enjoy sharing these good things with you.

MM
 
YF, that's only true for those who seek to keep the Law as their means for justification and salvation. When you paint every intention with the broad brush strokes of condemnation, any one of us most generally ends up on the side of gross error.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Now, if you can find in anywhere in that context where those believing Jews were in any way chastised for their zealotry for the Law, then please point it out to me. I'd very much like to see it.

The Jewish believers understood these things, and were still zealous for the Law, and never once rebuked for it:

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 3:20, 28

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. ... 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

I could go on and on and on, and one will search in vain to find any instruction to disregard the Law, to not study it, and to disregard applying the knowledge obtained from the Law, which can and does assist in one's ability to abstain from sin, especially the commission of many sins through ignorance.

So, it's the difference between applying the Law of God PROPERLY in one's life. Leaving out justification, one is well within the good pleasure of the Lord to study it and learn from it. Far too many people have given themselves over to the falsehoods of the Romish church teachings about the Law here in the West.

Again, if anyone has something with substance that would say otherwise, then I welcome your insights.

Love you all, and thoroughly enjoy sharing these good things with you.

MM
Just was saying that those such as Sda and others seem to want to stay in bondage yoked to the Law, and not now free in Christ!
 
Just was saying that those such as Sda and others seem to want to stay in bondage yoked to the Law, and not now free in Christ!

Do you know of some denominations who actually teach that...that all others are not free in Christ who do not those things they do? Do they all say that not having the seventh day as their Sabbath is a violation? If so, then why? Why do they say that? Did you ask? Do they teach that healthcare workers who save lives should never work on the Sabbath, for example? Did not Jesus say to the Pharisees that even they would work to pull out from a ditch their own livestock had they fallen in?

Is keeping the seventh say Sabbath a matter of being in bondage? Where does scripture say that?

Just some questions to try and get some exploration going in order to get at the root of these biases.

MM


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bobinfaith

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Hello Musicmaster;

I wanted to add the very basic differences that you mention between the Law, the Ten Commandments and in the New Testament what I called Jesus' Love Commandments.

The Law is the first five books of Moses - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, also called the Torah and the Pentateuch. The original law in the books of Moses was instructed to guide the people by living in obedience to God.

The Ten Commandments were included in the Law instructed to Moses by God, who was commanded to instructed them to the people as the major set of Laws reference Exodus 20:2–17 and Deuteronomy 5:6–21.

In the New Testament Gospels, Jesus fulfills the Law, or the Ten Commandments at the Sermon on the Mount in the book of Matthew 5:1-48. Here Jesus is fulfilling the more important matters of the Law, what I call the Love Commandments reference justice, mercy, compassion, and faith.

MM, if there is something I'm missing, please don't abolish but fulfill them. lol!

God bless you, brother.
 
Hello Musicmaster;

I wanted to add the very basic differences that you mention between the Law, the Ten Commandments and in the New Testament what I called Jesus' Love Commandments.

The Law is the first five books of Moses - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, also called the Torah and the Pentateuch. The original law in the books of Moses was instructed to guide the people by living in obedience to God.

The Ten Commandments were included in the Law instructed to Moses by God, who was commanded to instructed them to the people as the major set of Laws reference Exodus 20:2–17 and Deuteronomy 5:6–21.

In the New Testament Gospels, Jesus fulfills the Law, or the Ten Commandments at the Sermon on the Mount in the book of Matthew 5:1-48. Here Jesus is fulfilling the more important matters of the Law, what I call the Love Commandments reference justice, mercy, compassion, and faith.

MM, if there is something I'm missing, please don't abolish but fulfill them. lol!

God bless you, brother.

Hi, Bob.

As I had pointed out in the OP, the English word translated "fulfill" has the following meaning within the grammatical construct:

"universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f"

So, for Christ to have fulfilled the Law, what that means from the Greek is that He made known how we should obey the Law, showing how it should be lived, as is stated in the Lexicon's definition. Instead, the history of our churches has been to read the passage, and then fail to verbalize this most important definition, leaving the ignorant masses to their assumptions about it, and figure that it's like paying their bills...once paid, they can toss the stubs into the trash and forget about it.

Others resist discussions about obedience, laying down the battering ram style false accusation that the teacher is legalistic. What poisons the well of discussion along this line even further is the accusation of the teacher making the Law a "salvation" issue.

So, let's talk about HOW we should obey the Law of God. I think we can agree that Jesus had a different approach to obedience to the Law than did the scribes, Pharisees and other religious leaders.

It's quite obvious they went by the letter (that which killeth in the absence of spirit), coupled with the thousands of pages of the traditions through generations of other Pharisees who piled - on top of pile - on top of pile - writings of traditions made up by men. We can see how that totally corrupted the originally inspired writings of God through Moses.

So, dare we think about what Jesus actually did, in His everyday walk through those years of His ministry, in that He revealed to us the manner by which we MUST obey the Law by the examples of His "fulfillment."

The lack of teaching through understanding of this strikes me as being demonically inspired through the centuries. Professing Christians find themselves struggling with sins in their lives, and naturally gravitate toward the idea that being "religious," as if that can help them to resist the temptations in their lives. Being religious is how the Pharisees made themselves appear as if they were above sin, and yet were the very embodiments of sin.

I could go on and on, but please do reflect upon this. I wish to take this along the path in measured steps so that nothing gets lots in the mix. Being meticulous about building this case is important, and I want us all to honor the LORD we claim to believe in by delving deep into His word. For those who have some questions...PLEASE do ask them. Read carefully what's written here, and read it again, and comment, ask questions, whatsoever you wish.

I love you all, each and every one, and want to fellowship with you all that we may build our faith, which will make wearing the armor of God so much more effective for us, so that we can offer up to the Throne of God a wonderful, sweet savor, pleasing unto He who is worthy of ALL our praise and our loving obedience.

Yours in Christ Jesus

MM
 
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1 Peter 2:1-10 KJV

1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices , acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

(The Greek word translated above as "sacrifices" means EXPRESSIONS, not burnt offerings.)

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

(Folks, this is serious stuff!)

9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(HalleluYAH)

10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

So, each one here has a choice to make throughout this study, which is clear cut, as stated in these verses. This is just a sobriety self-check....am I serious about seeking the truths that were not before revealed to me from my pillow, through osmosis, while sleeping????

No?

Being intentional means that we delve into the living, very word of God. If anyone feels as though they have "arrived," which I have not, then you have gone beyond where even Paul of Tarsus ever went in spiritual growth, meaning you have no need for this.

As for the rest of us, we need each other, and I'm hoping we can study all this in loving consideration toward one another.

Come, and study with us.

MM
 
I think for Hebrews/Jews priveliged enough to be handed down the traditions of scripture and the Torah, Jesus (and Paul) were referring to what they already knew and had a covenant with on mt Sinai, which was I guess ratified or further renewed when Jesus died to fulfil that requirement with his own blood.

For those of us who were gentiles and never were under the law, yes, we would do well to read and learn from them but the specific laws didn't apply to us because we were not (and are not now) living in the promised land (land of canaan from the river Jordan to the mediterranean) that the Israelites were. They were keeping that land that God had given them on condition that they observed everything Moses told them.

However all of us (Jew/non-jew or at the time of writing 'greek') can keep the spirit of the law in our hearts (which is love) and do our best to follow what God tells us. For the israelites it was not meant to be burdensome to keep those laws (or teachings). They were designed to protect them and bless them as a holy nation. They were the only ones (out of all the peoples of the world) that heard from God specifically up until the time of Jesus who now invites everyone - Jesus is a light to the gentiles.

That law was a schoolmaster to bring everyone to Christ. Now it must be admitted yes some people DO need to go back to school and learn the rules again. But at that time, those rules were taught for what, several hundreds of years before Christ came and they STILL couldn't get it exactly right. Until Jesus showed them how.

And also, it did seem to others that Jesus broke their rules/laws like when he picked some corn or healed on the Sabbath lol.
 

bobinfaith

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I'll refer to the Ten Commandments being God's most central laws and it may not have applied to gentiles back in the day, when we look at it from that view. But the gentiles were a variance of foreigners, aliens and captured who remained and co-existed with God's people, especially when Moses passed on the Commandments.

In Exodus and Deuteronomy and down through the the law (Ten Commandments) did put us under obedience to God. That does not mean that we all successfully abided in them. That's a fact but not the point. As Lanolin posted, "They were designed to protect them and bless them as a holy nation."

The Ten Commandments were carried through the centuries down to us and when quoted in the New Testament, they're mentioned together in Paul’s second letter to the Corinthian church.

2 Corinthians 3:3-18, 3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?

9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. 12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold,

13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.


Jesus' Love Commandments fulfilled the law with mercy, compassion, grace, forgiveness and more...The New Covenant mediated by Jesus when one proclaims from his/her heart believing Christ as Lord and Savior.

Thus the Who-What Oracles of man, or "given" to man.
 
Acts 13:42 KJV And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

I remember some radio preacher years ago saying that the Gentile believers never attended synagogues to learn the Torah, and those that did were converts to Judaism...never minding that the texts of scripture give no such indication.

Acts 21:20 KJV And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

The context nowhere chastises anyone for being zealous for the Law, and yet many out there will speak on there being no need for anyone to do ANY study of the moral absolutes upon which the Ten Commandments are built; especially the first two of which Jesus spoke.

Who in their right mind builds a house by trying to build the entire roof on just the four corner studs? It will never work. You need the stud walls in place to hold up the roof, especially when the winds come along and start applying the massive forces on that roof.

The Torah is simply God's instructions as the building blocks that portray what love is, so that then there is a support structure that empowers the believer to understand the greater depths of what and how one loves the Lord with his or her all, and loving one's neighbor as self.

People get so hung up on the term "Law," when in fact the Hebrew and Greek words mean "teaching," or "instruction," as opposed to it being a strictly legal term.

People also love using the battering ram of "salvation" in relation to Torah, when salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with Torah because Torah can't save anyone...never could, and never will. God's teachings are the very perfection that man could never live. That perfection was a school master to show man his need for a Redeemer.

And yet much of Protestantism and other religions ignore, and some even teach their followers to ignore those building blocks of perfection that hold the commandments upon solid, sturdy supports and grounding.

Amen?

MM
 

crossnote

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(IMHO) The law is a reflection of God's nature and the new birth brings that new nature upon our hearts. It is not a burden but that which we desire (as part of our new nature) to do..

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, and see, the new has come!
(2Co 5:17)
 
XXXX
You just can't go and circumcise everyone. For a start, half the population won't as they are female.
And most males would be older than 8 days old! Which is when God actually wanted people to do it.

That ship has sailed....Even Paul said, it wasn't right for people to impose that on new believers. Especially those who have actually do not have parents that were under the old covenant. For Timothy it was ok because he had a Jewish mother. But many of us do not. I don't! And I am not going to aliyah to Israel when I've got zero family ties there. If God calls me to go, sure, but He hasn't.



STAFF EDIT
 
When Jesus said he fulfilled the law...he was meaning he satisfied the requirement. He literally did this as he was the firstborn and was sacrificed, and his blood paid for it.
Remember way back when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his firstborn heir Isaac. But God stopped him, why? Because Abraham was willing at that point to obey.

Jesus was obedient to every part of the law, even to the giving of his life. Once he did that, there was no more sacrifice for sins. Jesus blood paid for it all. Nobody had to keep on sacrificing their firstborn lambs, goats and turtledoves every year. Otherwise everyone would have sacrificed their firstborn child, but they didn't, they gave their animals instead, but these could never pay for all the sins that everyone did.
 
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(IMHO) The law is a reflection of God's nature and the new birth brings that new nature upon our hearts. It is not a burden but that which we desire (as part of our new nature) to do..

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, and see, the new has come!
(2Co 5:17)

Good points, CN. The new nature should go hand in hand with God's instructions (Law). One would think that a new nature born of God would draw one to His instructions. It also seems reasonable that the new nature would motivate one to want to love Messiah, and embrace what He said:

John 14:15 KJV If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The Greek word translated "commandments," has this for its definition from the Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

"of the moral precepts of Christ and his apostles: ἐντολήν διδόναι, ἵνα, John 13:34; ἐντολήν γράφειν, 1 John 2:7f; (2 John 1:5); τάς ἐντολάς τηρεῖν, John (John 14:15);"

Did Messiah change His own moral absolutes when He came to this earth, taught, and died on the cross? No. He and the apostles showed to us the deeper things of Torah, in that they apply to not only physical acts, but even moreso matters of the heart.

Where did Messiah and His apostles point when addressing moral absolutes?

Torah.

They weren't walking around with a New Testament in their robe sashes, pretending that the NT was the sum total of all moral absolutes as the building blocks of the Ten.

My Bible does NOT read in John 14:15, "If ye love me, keep only the first two of my Ten Commandments."

So, when you, Lanolin, ask questions that totally miss the point of what I'm saying, like going out and circumcising everyone, let's keep our feet on the ground, shall we. At no point did I ever push the points made to the level of obeying the Lord's instructions at the exclusion of any and all qualifiers within what's called the "New Testament." Anyone who has studied the teachings of the apostles knows that circumcision was a specific item addressed in the epistles as not gaining one anything by way of salvation nor pleasure unto the Lord.

Lanolin, don't you see what you're doing? You're applying a defense mechanism of disobedience against the very word of God. You're fighting against the very instructions given. I'm not here to rob you of your right to obey or disobey. That's all on you.

It all starts with LOVE. Don't you see? Messiah made it a matter of LOVE:

John 14:15 KJV If ye LOVE me, keep my commandments (of the moral precepts of Christ and his apostles).

Do you get it now?

Generally speaking, one can claim to love Messiah, and then turn right around and argue for the exact opposite; all the time thinking they love Messiah, when in fact they are under deception.

Revelation 3:16 KJV So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

So, the question is, are we a part of the Church of Philadelphia, or Laodicia? It's a simple choice, really. I'm not here making demands that anyone must go one way or the other. It's all about LOVE. Does one love Messiah, or not. There's no middle ground here.

MM
 

XXX

Now, I'm going to once again point out for you and everyone else here the definition of the actual Greek word translated "fulfil" in that one key verse you're loosely addressing.

Matthew 5:17 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Contrary to the usual Protestant rhetoric that's totally false and misleading, here's what a top Protestant source says about the ACTUAL definition of the Greek word translated "fulfil" in that very verse:

"universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17;" Thayer's Greek Lexicon for Strong's G4137

Now, the question remains...will you study God's instructions (Law), or not, and couple it together with the new administration Messiah brought to us, or not? It's really just that simple. We don't have to complicate it with the side-steping, slight-of-hand gyrations of common theological card tricks to avoid obedience by way of ignoring the guidance offered from the Spirit of God and His written word to us.

Everyone has the right to go with whatever he or she thinks the Lord is leading them to do, but as for me and my house, we're going to follow NOT our emotions about what we want to be true or untrue, but by the Spirit of the Lord Most High AND what He inspired to be written rather than the many, many misrepresentations rooted in our own disobedience.

MM


STAFF EDIT
 
Picture this. God wants a people for Himself to demonstrate His goodness. He picks on one, Moses, to bring His people out of Egypt to worship him. But they are stuck in their Egyptian ways and could have gone on slaving away forever under Pharoah unless God did something totally dramatic.

After sending 10 plagues and seeing those that listened to Him obey and rub their doorposts with lambs blood so they are spared, he brings them out of Egypt to their final promised land destination, but before that He has to train them -- give them a few house rules so to speak, so that they can live in the land peacefully. Because one thing God doesn't want is His people replicating a Pharoah dictatorship in HIS land.

So again He picks Moses and Aaron to be his mouthpiece. Everyone knows Moses to be humble and he's not going to boss them around like Pharoah did. Moses goes up and has a chat with God and God writes down some commandments on a tablet of stone to bring down to the people. Cos guess what people soon forget about God when He's not doing any miracles.
 
Picture this. God wants a people for Himself to demonstrate His goodness. He picks on one, Moses, to bring His people out of Egypt to worship him. But they are stuck in their Egyptian ways and could have gone on slaving away forever under Pharoah unless God did something totally dramatic.

After sending 10 plagues and seeing those that listened to Him obey and rub their doorposts with lambs blood so they are spared, he brings them out of Egypt to their final promised land destination, but before that He has to train them -- give them a few house rules so to speak, so that they can live in the land peacefully. Because one thing God doesn't want is His people replicating a Pharoah dictatorship in HIS land.

So again He picks Moses and Aaron to be his mouthpiece. Everyone knows Moses to be humble and he's not going to boss them around like Pharoah did. Moses goes up and has a chat with God and God writes down some commandments on a tablet of stone to bring down to the people. Cos guess what people soon forget about God when He's not doing any miracles.

You're right. We Israelites most generally were/are stiff-necked and downright wicked in generations past, to this day. I'm one of them, and would never defend their disobedience. The problem is, many of us are still living in disobedience today, along with most Gentiles, and so the resistance within the systems of churches to embrace Torah as perfect and holy, that will only hold back those who follow after such.

As for me and MY house, we will recognize God's instruction to man as the perfection no man was ever able to live to gain his salvation, and never will. Christ brought redemption to us in the place of the former shadows of the shed blood by having shed His own blood. It's because of our love for Messiah that we strive to embrace the building blocks of His perfect instruction to us, coupled with the example of Messiah, and therefore show our love for Him (John 14:15) through our desire to be conformed to His Torah that applies to us, and rest in the assurances of His pleasure.

MM
 
I'm sorry if I mistook your words though it did seem like you made out that everyone except you (and your house) were following their emotions. Although I am never sure when people say WE who they mean.

You and me? You and your wife? You and everybody?

Because I don't live in the same house as you... unless you are meaning figuratively ...? It was something Joshua said about Israel who at that stage all lived together before they separated into different tribes.
 

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Staff Memo - It seems that we have yet another conflict brewing at CFS. This thread is being halted for content review and will be edited. This thread may or may not be reopened. We once again caution participants who have differences of opinion or differences in belief systems to READ Forum Rules 3.1, 3.2b and especially 2.1 . The staff has posted this same reminder at least each month, and we strongly suggest that the Rules be followed.

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